Religious exemption at Confession

[Serryah]

Bill requiring clergy to report child abuse confessions opposed by Utah Catholics, House speaker

As religious opposition both in and out of Utah mounts against a proposed bill to require all allegations of child abuse to be reported to authorities, including those stated in religious confessionals, a powerful legislative leader has opposed the bill.

www.deseret.com

Group gathers to rally against Utah's clergy reporting exemption

About 300 people gathered Friday evening at the Utah Capitol to call for the state to change a law that allows members of the clergy to be exempt from reporting child abuse if they learn about it during confessionals.

ksltv.com

So, where's all the outrage from people to get this loophole fixed so clergy DON'T have the right to hide this?

 

[pgs]

You tell us .

 

[The_Foxer]

There is a reason for the whole confessional thing and why it's still legally exempt from such laws - did you bother to even look into the history of this or is this just a knee jerk reaction because you don't understand the issue?

 

[petros]

Bill requiring clergy to report child abuse confessions opposed by Utah Catholics, House speaker

As religious opposition both in and out of Utah mounts against a proposed bill to require all allegations of child abuse to be reported to authorities, including those stated in religious confessionals, a powerful legislative leader has opposed the bill.

www.deseret.com

Group gathers to rally against Utah's clergy reporting exemption

About 300 people gathered Friday evening at the Utah Capitol to call for the state to change a law that allows members of the clergy to be exempt from reporting child abuse if they learn about it during confessionals.

ksltv.com

So, where's all the outrage from people to get this loophole fixed so clergy DON'T have the right to hide this?

Loophole? Its an umbrella.

Show me a law that demands anyone is obligated to assist the police in an investigation in any capacity.

 

[IdRatherBeSkiing]

It is a requirement in Ontario to report it. There is no requirement to provide any further assistance.

Report child abuse and neglect

Learn about how to identify and report child abuse and/or neglect. In Ontario, it’s the law to report suspected child abuse and neglect. Report it to a children's aid society or, if someone is in immediate danger, call the police.

www.ontario.ca

I do not know if clergy are exempt here. Not being Catholic, is confession not anonymous?

 

[The_Foxer]

It is a requirement in Ontario to report it. There is no requirement to provide any further assistance.


I do not know if clergy are exempt here. Not being Catholic, is confession not anonymous?

I believe so, but it's important to remember it's not a blanket exception, it's specifically for confession. And the logic behind it is that people wouldn't confess such things if they knew the priest would report it and send them to jail. So at least this way they let the priest know and the priest can make an effort to guide them to a service that would help them, or otherwise try to force a change in behavior. For those who actually believe in the catholic god it's at least a chance to stop something that might go on hidden for years.

 

[Taxslave2]

I didn’t even kno2 there were Catholics in Utah. I thought it is all mormons.

 

[Serryah]

It is a requirement in Ontario to report it. There is no requirement to provide any further assistance.

Report child abuse and neglect

Learn about how to identify and report child abuse and/or neglect. In Ontario, it’s the law to report suspected child abuse and neglect. Report it to a children's aid society or, if someone is in immediate danger, call the police.

www.ontario.ca

I do not know if clergy are exempt here. Not being Catholic, is confession not anonymous?

Not sure if it has to be reported in NB or not; I think when it comes to priests, it's SUPPOSED to be, but Catholic priests often break that requirement (saw a few news articles re: that issue and being sued).

But yeah, confession is supposed to be anonymous and nothing said in it given onto anyone outside the confessional. The issue is, if someone is abusing their kid, should that priest report it? I get the situation they're in, but this is a child being abused. Since a lot of abuse reports can be made anonymously, the priest CAN still report it but not reveal who it came from.

"Suffer the little children" was not meant to be literal in this way, IMO.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Bill requiring clergy to report child abuse confessions opposed by Utah Catholics, House speaker

As religious opposition both in and out of Utah mounts against a proposed bill to require all allegations of child abuse to be reported to authorities, including those stated in religious confessionals, a powerful legislative leader has opposed the bill.

www.deseret.com

Group gathers to rally against Utah's clergy reporting exemption

About 300 people gathered Friday evening at the Utah Capitol to call for the state to change a law that allows members of the clergy to be exempt from reporting child abuse if they learn about it during confessionals.

ksltv.com

So, where's all the outrage from people to get this loophole fixed so clergy DON'T have the right to hide this?

Loophole? Its an umbrella.

Show me a law that demands anyone is obligated to assist the police in an investigation in any capacity.

This I know nothing about or almost nothing about…. but I think it’s something like more than half of US states exempt clergy from reporting crimes including child abuse from an obligation to report it.

As far as a law goes that if you know about child abuse you have to report it….I assumed such a thing (assume, I know) existed…& if not legally then morally this would be a necessity and obligation to a mentally balanced human being.

Again, I’m assuming here, those individuals operating in a professional capacity would or should have to report child abuse (Teachers, Nurses, Doctors, Law Enforcement, Social Workers, Clergy?, etc…), but do they?

Who has a legal obligation to report child abuse? - FREE Legal Information | Legal Line

To report suspected child abuse, the law requires that individuals need to have reasonable grounds, based on an honest belief that harm is being done, or could be done, to a child. A decision to report abuse can even be based on partial or incomplete information, or on mere suspicion. Provincial...

www.legalline.ca

Provincial child protection laws require every person, including those who perform professional or official duties with children, to report suspected abuse to the appropriate authorities. The law requires that suspected child abuse is to be reported each time that a person has grounds to believe that abuse is occurring, even if the suspected abuse was reported in the past. To help ensure that people report child abuse, those who do so based on reasonable grounds are protected from liability in the civil courts.

In many provinces, professionals who work with children may be fined for failure to report reasonable suspicions of abuse.

 

[Taxslave2]

I know that psychologists have to report if a client tells them of involvement in a criminal act. I would expect preachers would have to as well.
This can make it hard for a person to seek help. Yet lawyers have no sure hardship inflicted on their services. In fact, they are even allowed to lie in court.

 

[Ron in Regina]

I know that psychologists have to report if a client tells them of involvement in a criminal act. I would expect preachers would have to as well.
This can make it hard for a person to seek help. Yet lawyers have no sure hardship inflicted on their services. In fact, they are even allowed to lie in court.

Crazy. Here’s something from the above link (keep in mind this is from a Canadian site):

Examples of professionals who can be fined include:

• Health care professionals, such as physicians, nurses, dentists, pharmacists and psychologists
• Teachers and school principals
• Child welfare workers, social workers and family counsellors
• Priests, rabbis and other members of the clergy
• Operators or employees of a day nursery
• Youth and recreation workers
• Police officers (municipal and RCMP)
• Coroners
• Victim services workers

In many provinces, professionals who work with children may be fined for failure to report reasonable suspicions of abuse. Fines can range anywhere from up-to $5000 in Ontario up-to $50,000 in Manitoba where the person may also face imprisonment of up-to 2 years. Under child welfare legislation in British Columbia and Newfoundland, a person may be fined up-to $10,000 or six months in jail for failing to report child abuse, or both. In the Northwest Territories, possible punishment is a fine up-to $5,000 and/ or six months in prison.

They don’t list Lawyers above, but maybe it’s a short list for examples (?) or maybe they’re exempt like clergy in much of the US? I’ve no idea which to be honest.

Provincial child protection laws require every person, including those who perform professional or official duties with children, to report suspected abuse to the appropriate authorities. The law requires that suspected child abuse is to be reported each time that a person has grounds to believe that abuse is occurring, even if the suspected abuse was reported in the past. To help ensure that people report child abuse, those who do so based on reasonable grounds are protected from liability in the civil courts.

Who has a legal obligation to report child abuse? - FREE Legal Information | Legal Line

To report suspected child abuse, the law requires that individuals need to have reasonable grounds, based on an honest belief that harm is being done, or could be done, to a child. A decision to report abuse can even be based on partial or incomplete information, or on mere suspicion. Provincial...

www.legalline.ca

 

[petros]

This I know nothing about or almost nothing about…. but I think it’s something like more than half of US states exempt clergy from reporting crimes including child abuse from an obligation to report it.

As far as a law goes that if you know about child abuse you have to report it….I assumed such a thing (assume, I know) existed…& if not legally then morally this would be a necessity and obligation to a mentally balanced human being.

Again, I’m assuming here, those individuals operating in a professional capacity would or should have to report child abuse (Teachers, Nurses, Doctors, Law Enforcement, Social Workers, Clergy?, etc…), but do they?

Who has a legal obligation to report child abuse? - FREE Legal Information | Legal Line

To report suspected child abuse, the law requires that individuals need to have reasonable grounds, based on an honest belief that harm is being done, or could be done, to a child. A decision to report abuse can even be based on partial or incomplete information, or on mere suspicion. Provincial...

www.legalline.ca

Provincial child protection laws require every person, including those who perform professional or official duties with children, to report suspected abuse to the appropriate authorities. The law requires that suspected child abuse is to be reported each time that a person has grounds to believe that abuse is occurring, even if the suspected abuse was reported in the past. To help ensure that people report child abuse, those who do so based on reasonable grounds are protected from liability in the civil courts.

In many provinces, professionals who work with children may be fined for failure to report reasonable suspicions of abuse.

"Suspicion" is subjective. That alone makes obligation a sliding factor as well. Some may see loss of a priveledge as abuse of a child while another person sees a backhand as a-ok.

 

[Ron in Regina]

"Suspicion" is subjective. That alone makes obligation a sliding factor as well. Some may see loss of a priveledge as abuse of a child while another person sees a backhand as a-ok.

OK, never thought of that to be honest. I was thinking of….well…actual abuse.

 

[petros]

Its all subjective, even "abuse" abuse.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

It's a tough one. You have to weigh the value of confidentiality of priest-penitent privilege in producing true confessions against the danger/damage to kids.

Legally, there's the whole question of freedom of religion. Clearly you can make government employees "mandatory reporters," but priests aren't government employees. The "freedom of religion" landmines abound.

 

[Serryah]

Crazy. Here’s something from the above link (keep in mind this is from a Canadian site):

Examples of professionals who can be fined include:

• Health care professionals, such as physicians, nurses, dentists, pharmacists and psychologists
• Teachers and school principals
• Child welfare workers, social workers and family counsellors
• Priests, rabbis and other members of the clergy
• Operators or employees of a day nursery
• Youth and recreation workers
• Police officers (municipal and RCMP)
• Coroners
• Victim services workers

In many provinces, professionals who work with children may be fined for failure to report reasonable suspicions of abuse. Fines can range anywhere from up-to $5000 in Ontario up-to $50,000 in Manitoba where the person may also face imprisonment of up-to 2 years. Under child welfare legislation in British Columbia and Newfoundland, a person may be fined up-to $10,000 or six months in jail for failing to report child abuse, or both. In the Northwest Territories, possible punishment is a fine up-to $5,000 and/ or six months in prison.

They don’t list Lawyers above, but maybe it’s a short list for examples (?) or maybe they’re exempt like clergy in much of the US? I’ve no idea which to be honest.

Provincial child protection laws require every person, including those who perform professional or official duties with children, to report suspected abuse to the appropriate authorities. The law requires that suspected child abuse is to be reported each time that a person has grounds to believe that abuse is occurring, even if the suspected abuse was reported in the past. To help ensure that people report child abuse, those who do so based on reasonable grounds are protected from liability in the civil courts.

Who has a legal obligation to report child abuse? - FREE Legal Information | Legal Line

To report suspected child abuse, the law requires that individuals need to have reasonable grounds, based on an honest belief that harm is being done, or could be done, to a child. A decision to report abuse can even be based on partial or incomplete information, or on mere suspicion. Provincial...

www.legalline.ca

I saw that website and was going to use it, but found the entries for the provinces to be exactly the same, rarely any differences, so I wasn't sure how factual it was.

It's a tough one. You have to weigh the value of confidentiality of priest-penitent privilege in producing true confessions against the danger/damage to kids.

Legally, there's the whole question of freedom of religion. Clearly you can make government employees "mandatory reporters," but priests aren't government employees. The "freedom of religion" landmines abound.

And that brings up the idea of where freedom of religion 'outranks' abuse of children. I mean, isn't that what (in Canada) Bountiful BC was about, and the Jeff Warren (Mormon) case was all about? And then you've got the confessionals (which is back on point of the OP); you've the right wing screaming about "PROTECT THE KIDS!" when it comes to teachers, but what about protecting kids from OTHERS as well, especially if that person confesses to it?

I don't suggest it's an easy fix, rather that there's hypocrisy in the idea that someone can confess to abuse and get away with it because they did it in a religious setting.

 

[petros]

How do you seperate the spiritual aspects of confession from religion? Is it really religious freedom or is it spiritual freedom?

 

[Taxslave2]

I saw that website and was going to use it, but found the entries for the provinces to be exactly the same, rarely any differences, so I wasn't sure how factual it was.




And that brings up the idea of where freedom of religion 'outranks' abuse of children. I mean, isn't that what (in Canada) Bountiful BC was about, and the Jeff Warren (Mormon) case was all about? And then you've got the confessionals (which is back on point of the OP); you've the right wing screaming about "PROTECT THE KIDS!" when it comes to teachers, but what about protecting kids from OTHERS as well, especially if that person confesses to it?

I don't suggest it's an easy fix, rather that there's hypocrisy in the idea that someone can confess to abuse and get away with it because they did it in a religious setting.

His name is Warren Jeffs. One sick puppy with a fair number of followers. I think he has the muslims beat on pedophile religion.

 

[Serryah]

His name is Warren Jeffs. One sick puppy with a fair number of followers. I think he has the muslims beat on pedophile religion.

Okay yeah, Warren Jeffs, got the name backwards.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

I saw that website and was going to use it, but found the entries for the provinces to be exactly the same, rarely any differences, so I wasn't sure how factual it was.




And that brings up the idea of where freedom of religion 'outranks' abuse of children. I mean, isn't that what (in Canada) Bountiful BC was about, and the Jeff Warren (Mormon) case was all about? And then you've got the confessionals (which is back on point of the OP); you've the right wing screaming about "PROTECT THE KIDS!" when it comes to teachers, but what about protecting kids from OTHERS as well, especially if that person confesses to it?

I don't suggest it's an easy fix, rather that there's hypocrisy in the idea that someone can confess to abuse and get away with it because they did it in a religious setting.

To an extent, but if one is to make people who aren't government employees "mandatory reporters," how are clergy different from anybody else? Would you support a law requiring anybody who comes by knowledge, or reasonable suspicion of child abuse, to report it (or else)?