Religious Brain Scrubbing of Children

[MHz]

Sorry, MHz, I won't be sitting around to listen to you rationalize the Holocaust or negate it. This has been done to death as of late.

All I'm saying is when thinking of making this a school taught subject (funded by tax-dollars) then it should be an extensive course and not a very small one that focuses on a pinpoint of time when it has a past that is much larger, things that happened that allowed the Jewish Holocaust to happen. I won't even argue numbers other than the number should not be confined to a period of 5 years when 50 years were part of the reason that thing could happen. That increases the number of dead to about 60 million in all, that is a greater Holocaust than 6 million in 5 years, the culprit, war, the one thing that should be happening but is. You have better odds at stopping something like that from happening to the Jewish people again if that was not happening to other people today. (smaller acts of genocide in the last 70 years)
Patriatism can also wash a brain, if what is taught has flaws then there are things that will be stood up for when they shouldn't be.

Back in the early days of Canada there was an organization called 'watch-dogs', they were usually under-paid if they were paid at all, and their mission was to double check everything Governmants or Corporations were telling people about what they were catually doing. That was a safe-guard against lies and deceptions. What ever happened to that being the correct way to establish anything. If some 'group' does not also allow for a watch-dog type of policy then maybe they shouldn't be allowed to for a group, much less a very powerful one.

And as for who I shed tears for... you have no idea how I view war, so don't even try to make assumptions about who I do and do not mourn.

I assume it would be somewhat less than those who lived through that war and lost somebody.
My parents told be it was like one long day at the fair. They were both in Edmonton for most of it helping build the Alaska Highway. By the time they got that accomplished the war was over. They even said people got along better back then because there was a 'common enemy'. For them it was work in the day and party like hell in the night. Too bad it had to be in support of war, perhaps a common goal does not have to also be a 'threat to life'.

And I'm not trying to start a fight but 50 years should outweigh 5 years.

 

[Vereya]

Maybe I will sound bigoted or anti-Semitic to you, but let me ask you one thing.
The Holocaust happened in Germany. The victims were the Jews. And the questions is - how come this subject is taught in British schools? What is the connection between what Hitler had done during the war, and present-day Britain?
You might tell me, that it was a terrible act of atrocity that we all should remember in order not to let that happen again. But wasn't Hiroshima, for instance, a terrible act of atrocity as well? Why don't spend a fortune on training teachers to conduct classes about Hiroshima?
You might tell me, that a lot of Jews were cruelly killed during the Holocaust, and it was a great tragedy for the Jewish people. But didn't a lot of Japanese die in Hirosima? Why doesn't the world mourn with the Japanese? Aren't they mourn-worthy? 8O Russia lost 20 million people fighting Hitler. Why doesn't the world mourn those poor Russians? It was a terrible tragedy as well, and our country still haven't recovered demographically from this loss.
What I mean is that I am sorry for the Jewish, no question about that. But isn't this taking things a little bit too far? Why don't we mourn for the Aztecs? All of them were killed, you know, while there are some Jews still around.
My point is - why does the whole world have to mourn with just one nation, and treat its national tragedy with reverence? Each nation has a tragedy of its own, and some of these are more recent, than the Holocaust. Why not honor these as well?

 

[karrie]

The jaded answer Vereya, is that Hiroshima was perpetrated by the victors, so it doesn't get the same coverage.

But, why do you assume that the people lost as well as the Jews aren't mourned? Why is there an assumption that people don't know how many died in Europe over that time and mourn those people? People marched off to war to die for ideologies and political posturing... it's all pathetic. It's all a travesty.

Why does trying to maintain the accuracy of one, which has lately been subject to many revisionist attempts, mean that the ones that don't face such attempts aren't being honored? How many attempted revisions have there been reported regarding the death toll for Russians? The death toll for Hiroshima? Whereas when it comes to the Jews, there have been cases of teachers deciding that what they read on a conspiracy site is truer than what is actually in their history texts. I can see why a school board would choose to try to combat that.

 

[lone wolf]

Really, when you have thirty-year-olds tracking down eighty-year old former guards, isn't that just passing the hate from one generation to the next? It happened. So did all of World Wars 1 and 2. The legacies are there to remember. Why should any kid have to learn the hate?

 

[darkbeaver]

Please expand in this.

India, Bengal about 1942

 

[darkbeaver]

India, Bengal about 1942

, Concentration camps were employed in S Africa during the Boor war by British and any realistic expansion would include several volumns of terrorism beyond imagination.

 

[darkbeaver]

You've given A definition of bigotry, not THE definition. To me, being devoted to disliking a group of people due to your stereotypes about them is a much better definition of possessing a bigoted view, and your constant grumbling about 'bankers' and 'capitalists' puts you pretty squarely into that camp. And btw, I never used the label 'bigot', I mentioned only an impression of bigotry in the arguments I've heard in the past. But thanks for the name calling.

There you go again. What stereotyping do you refer to? Bigot is the definition that refered to intolerant views like yours. My views about capitalists and bankers have assendancy at this time in history as they have had through most of history, both enjoy reputations just slightly better than smallpox. You used the words I said you used and you directed them against me, and now you add disengenuous childish denial to the list. It must be a great burden your perfection.

 

[darkbeaver]

Really, when you have thirty-year-olds tracking down eighty-year old former guards, isn't that just passing the hate from one generation to the next? It happened. So did all of World Wars 1 and 2. The legacies are there to remember. Why should any kid have to learn the hate?

If this were christian or muslim indoctrination/instruction in western schools in support of the twisted histories of either the outrage would be monumental, but no, the Jewish version of history is sacrosanct and nothing must be questioned, this is unique in contemporary human experiance. That children should be taught hate in this manner is appaling rot.

 

[darkbeaver]

I prefer sharpie markers thanks, but I don't think this is connect the dots. Unless the dots connect to reveal a surrealistic painting. No, there is no religious connotation to this story, and directing a personal insult as a reply is cliche'.

So the Jewish Holocaust has no religious connotations? The crack about the crayons was accompanied by a smiley you'll note.:lol:

 

[MHz]

The jaded answer Vereya, is that Hiroshima was perpetrated by the victors, so it doesn't get the same coverage.

But, why do you assume that the people lost as well as the Jews aren't mourned? Why is there an assumption that people don't know how many died in Europe over that time and mourn those people? People marched off to war to die for ideologies and political posturing... it's all pathetic. It's all a travesty.

Why does trying to maintain the accuracy of one, which has lately been subject to many revisionist attempts, mean that the ones that don't face such attempts aren't being honored? How many attempted revisions have there been reported regarding the death toll for Russians? The death toll for Hiroshima? Whereas when it comes to the Jews, there have been cases of teachers deciding that what they read on a conspiracy site is truer than what is actually in their history texts. I can see why a school board would choose to try to combat that.

You are most likely aware that the 'conspiracy' advocates use documents from our history. Authentic documents. Any genocide other than the Jewish one is open for review. Over the years that has most likely brought a better understanding rather than diminished the truth about the events. Old documents that have seen the light of day cannot be reburied. You suggest that any document not introduced before some date (say around 19650) is irrelevant. Maybe we should aslo stop science and medicine the same way, no more exploring after a certain date as everything that could possibly be made known is made known.

The oweness isn't on the winners to tell you the truth, it is up to you to verify that they are telling you the truth. Accepting an unverified statement as truth (with no investigation) is what allowed those genocides to happen in the first place. Hitle could have never come to power, nor could those that caused him to rise to power ever get another to do the same thing.

The Jews more than anybody should remember the Holocaust, rather than just a rabid animal (Nazis) going after them maybe they were doing something that brought that attention down on them, like being busy-bodies in the affairs of a 'foreign nation'. No reaximination of history is going to change that since the truth cannot be changed in only this short period of time.

 

[darkbeaver]

The jaded answer Vereya, is that Hiroshima was perpetrated by the victors, so it doesn't get the same coverage.

But, why do you assume that the people lost as well as the Jews aren't mourned? Why is there an assumption that people don't know how many died in Europe over that time and mourn those people? People marched off to war to die for ideologies and political posturing... it's all pathetic. It's all a travesty.

Why does trying to maintain the accuracy of one, which has lately been subject to many revisionist attempts, mean that the ones that don't face such attempts aren't being honored? How many attempted revisions have there been reported regarding the death toll for Russians? The death toll for Hiroshima? Whereas when it comes to the Jews, there have been cases of teachers deciding that what they read on a conspiracy site is truer than what is actually in their history texts. I can see why a school board would choose to try to combat that.

Read some history of the 20th century about the Zionist movement Karrie and you'll find the accepted facts are not necessarily facts at all. There is history for the working classes and then there is history for the powerful, to confuse them is to your disadvantage. Many of the Holocaust victims were kept in the combat zones by the Zionist movement who made sure in many instances that refugees from europe were refused entry to safety in the west. This is a matter of historical record that won't be taught in British schools.

 

[scratch]

Read some history of the 20th century about the Zionist movement Karrie and you'll find the accepted facts are not necessarily facts at all. There is history for the working classes and then there is history for the powerful, to confuse them is to your disadvantage. Many of the Holocaust victims were kept in the combat zones by the Zionist movement who made sure in many instances that refugees from europe were refused entry to safety in the west. This is a matter of historical record that won't be taught in British schools.

Will stranger than fiction ever end?

 

[darkbeaver]

Will stranger than fiction ever end?

I don't think it can scratch. I think reality has ever so much more resources to draw upon in it's assemblages. Fiction is a product of reality but reality can emerge from fiction ala Jules Verne. You know now I'v confused myself a little. Fiction comes from reality and reality comes from fiction, maybe the two are interdependent, maybe fiction is reality in infancy. I think it's cannibis time.:lol:

 

[tracy]

Maybe I will sound bigoted or anti-Semitic to you, but let me ask you one thing.
The Holocaust happened in Germany. The victims were the Jews. And the questions is - how come this subject is taught in British schools? What is the connection between what Hitler had done during the war, and present-day Britain?
You might tell me, that it was a terrible act of atrocity that we all should remember in order not to let that happen again. But wasn't Hiroshima, for instance, a terrible act of atrocity as well? Why don't spend a fortune on training teachers to conduct classes about Hiroshima?
You might tell me, that a lot of Jews were cruelly killed during the Holocaust, and it was a great tragedy for the Jewish people. But didn't a lot of Japanese die in Hirosima? Why doesn't the world mourn with the Japanese? Aren't they mourn-worthy? 8O Russia lost 20 million people fighting Hitler. Why doesn't the world mourn those poor Russians? It was a terrible tragedy as well, and our country still haven't recovered demographically from this loss.
What I mean is that I am sorry for the Jewish, no question about that. But isn't this taking things a little bit too far? Why don't we mourn for the Aztecs? All of them were killed, you know, while there are some Jews still around.
My point is - why does the whole world have to mourn with just one nation, and treat its national tragedy with reverence? Each nation has a tragedy of its own, and some of these are more recent, than the Holocaust. Why not honor these as well?

I don't think that other people aren't mourned, but I'll tell you why I think the Holocaust deserves a special place in history classes around the world. The obvious answer is it was one of the main issues in a WORLD war. For that alone, it will get some time in school just like the bombing of Hiroshima or D Day or whatever but it doesn't make it unique.

The real reason it's important IMO is the why of it. It was the first well known genocide in modern times where people were targeted solely because of who they were and not what they did (I say well known because the Armenians and others would certainly argue the Jews weren't the first). That makes it more important to learn about. Hiroshima wasn't bombed simply because we wanted to rid the world of all Japanese. Americans and Canadians were certainly racist at the time, interning their own Japanese citizens, but they didn't gas them or work them to death or torture them. War is war is war, but a genocide where normal people turn against their neighbours simply because of race, religion, ethnicity, etc. is different and it deserves different treatment in our education. There is simply something worse about wanting to exterminate an entire group of people compared to wanting to win a war.

 

[tracy]

The Jews more than anybody should remember the Holocaust, rather than just a rabid animal (Nazis) going after them maybe they were doing something that brought that attention down on them, like being busy-bodies in the affairs of a 'foreign nation'. No reaximination of history is going to change that since the truth cannot be changed in only this short period of time.

That's insane. So you'd say what... that maybe we should warn minorities everywhere not to bring attention to their group lest it brings on a genocide attempt....:roll:

 

[tracy]

If this were christian or muslim indoctrination/instruction in western schools in support of the twisted histories of either the outrage would be monumental, but no, the Jewish version of history is sacrosanct and nothing must be questioned, this is unique in contemporary human experiance. That children should be taught hate in this manner is appaling rot.

It isn't the Jewish version. It's the accepted historical events of all but a few who seem intent on continuing to promote hatred against zionists. For them to disguise their anti-semitic message by claiming they want to stop children from being taught to hate is the ultimate perversion.

 

[darkbeaver]

It isn't the Jewish version. It's the accepted historical events of all but a few who seem intent on continuing to promote hatred against zionists. For them to disguise their anti-semitic message by claiming they want to stop children from being taught to hate is the ultimate perversion.

Actually Tracy there are six-billion people on this planet the vast majority have not accepted western renditions of history which everybody knows are horribly skewed and factually deficient.
I am free to hate Zionism just as I am free to hate fascism or to hate the KKK or to hate any sort of corruption when ever I see fit. If you think children should be taught the exclusion of one group of human victims over all others then I suggest perversion is more widespread than you realize. What semites? The Palestinians, the Iraqis?

 

[MHz]

So why do you think they were targeted?
I doubt the Nazis killed them over events that happened back in the time of Jesus.
What were the causes behind most genocides in the last 100 years? Sometimes it was to remove a 'majority' that had power in any certain Nation. If you have 3% of the population and 60% of the 'important jobs' you are a threat to the 97%. Whether that ratio is right I have no idea other they had a higher % of the most important jobs compared to their population number. Nor would they have sworn an oath to their host country. For the ones in the US that have dual citizenship which way do you think they would go in a push comes to shove event. I would go for a Jewish person holding an important US job would still go with what Israel wanted then to do, even in the face of it being against US interests.

 

[darkbeaver]

Genocide is an economic tool most often I think, I suppose its present form is coincidental with the industrial revolution. If you want to understand industrial genocide check out India they had over a hundred years of the imperial driven variety. Understand is a poor choice of word, I don't think any sane human can ever really understand the scale or the contempt for life.

 

[Vereya]

If this were christian or muslim indoctrination/instruction in western schools in support of the twisted histories of either the outrage would be monumental, but no, the Jewish version of history is sacrosanct and nothing must be questioned, this is unique in contemporary human experiance. That children should be taught hate in this manner is appaling rot.

And the Jewish version of history doesn't explain why the richer Jews got out of Germany safe and sound. Seems to me a very selective kind of Holocaust. The richer Japanese didn't manage to escape Hiroshima in the same way, somehow... And the Jewish version of history doesn't like to explain who exactly financed Hitler...