Rational Faith

[gerryh]

We will all have to answer Jesus' question, "Who do you say that I am?". Don't let the world/politics distract you. Devils run about endlessly to detract from the gospel.


Then Jesus cried out, “Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45 The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

THIS, is the everything. This is all one needs to believe. Accept Christ into your heart and soul. Accept Christ as your Lord and Saviour. Believe that he was born, was crucified, died and was buried. That on the 3rd day he rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven. Believe that he came to earth to sacrifice himself for our sins.

“If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. 49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. 50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

I agree completely, unfortunately, man took his words and twisted them in some instances. Changed them for their own interests, for their own agenda. Ask Christ what his words were rather than believing some man with a possible agenda from 2000 years ago. Go direct to the source. There is no need to use a middle man.

But, my faith in God isn't just a hope. I mean I don't have to sit around and conjure up belief in God. He is just there. Faith came without any of my doing. I can only say if Jesus is who he said he was, then clearly it is more than possible and quite probable and expected that his gospel would spread to the ends of the earth and result in people having faith & believing in Him. How can anyone explain that? There is no natural law to explain it. You think about all the professed Christians throughout history - yeah, I know there are some nuts tossed in, but something got a hold of those people. I know there are some on these forums that enjoy ripping the Bible to shreds. The Bible warned there would be those that would do so. Others deny Christ is God. The Bible warned of that as well. The thing about the Bible is after you get to reading it, you come to realize that it is right time and time again.

All things including faith in a living God become possible if Christ is who he said he was.

Twice, twice, you used the word "if". Are you not sure? I know I am positive as to who Christ is. There is no doubt in my mind, he has spoken to me.

 

[MHz]

Which came first the goo or the recipe?

The seed delivery guys. The God did them one better when He created Adam and Eve.

Re:4:7:
And the first beast was like a lion,
and the second beast like a calf,
and the third beast had a face as a man,
and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

Ge:1:21:
And God created great whales,
and every living creature that moveth,
which the waters brought forth abundantly,
after their kind,
and every winged fowl after his kind:
and God saw that it was good.

Ge:1:25:
And God made the beast of the earth after his kind,
and cattle after their kind,
and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind:
and God saw that it was good.

I know I am positive as to who Christ is. There is no doubt in my mind, he has spoken to me.

Why stop when it story is just getting interesting.

 

[gerryh]

Why stop when it story is just getting interesting.

who said I have stopped listening and speaking.

 

[MHz]

So what did God say to you, maybe I wasn't being clear in my original post.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

First off one has to define and agree on what morality really is.

I find that fairly simple on one level. Ethics and morality are just the rules necessary to have a functioning society, which is true as far as it goes but doesn't say anything useful about what the rules ought to be. That's where things get disputatious. Some of them are obvious of course, no well ordered society could leave people free to rob and murder their neighbours for instance, but many of them aren't, as witness contemporary debates about things like capital punishment, abortion, euthanasia, stem cell research...

But to bring this back to some semblance of relevance to the thread topic I think that any moral or ethical position that has solely a religious justification should be viewed with deep suspicion. Religion does not have a good track record historically at holding the moral high ground, and I'm convinced the only reason it's as nice and civilized and even ecumenical as it is now is simply because it no longer has the secular power in any civilized nation to be anything else. But when it WAS in charge, and in places where it still is, it's pretty nasty, with the possible exception of the Vatican. At least they're not burning heretics anymore. Religious and secular authority vested in the same people and institutions is usually a prescription for tyranny. Power corrupts, as they say, and as Christopher Hitchens pointed out, power corrupts religion uniquely. Because it considers its doctrines uniquely right, it necessarily seeks to interfere in the lives of everybody, particularly non-believers, doubters, and those who don't toe the correct line. And the record shows that it will apply pretty nasty sanctions to them if it can.

 

[gerryh]

So what did God say to you, maybe I wasn't being clear in my original post.

Nope, not happening. I've made it quite clear as to what I believe. That is what I have been told.

 

[MHz]

Nope, not happening.

Not a huge surprise.

 

[gerryh]

Not a huge surprise.

You're wrong, about everything damn near. Is that what you want to hear? You have your path, it will lead to the same place my path leads.

 

[cj44]

Gerry - My "ifs" were used in a rhetorical sense. I wasn't actually wondering about who Jesus was.

Dexter, i think it is essential to seperate religion and faith. Collins patients were not trusting in a religion. Faith is all together different.

Faith isn't what burned heretics at the stake. No where in the Bible (True Christianity) does it teach to murder. The perpetrators of such and similar crimes cannot be considered "real" Christians. You will know a tree by its fruit. True faith cannot exist with that sort of "religion" - one that binds people and kills them when they do not conform.

 

[Cliffy]

Gerry - My "ifs" were used in a rhetorical sense. I wasn't actually wondering about who Jesus was.

Dexter, i think it is essential to seperate religion and faith. Collins patients were not trusting in a religion. Faith is all together different.

Faith isn't what burned heretics at the stake. No where in the Bible (True Christianity) does it teach to murder. The perpetrators of such and similar crimes cannot be considered "real" Christians. You will know a tree by its fruit. True faith cannot exist with that sort of "religion" - one that binds people and kills them when they do not conform.

The OT is full of murder and mayhem at the behest of god, wiping out whole tribes and taking their women as slaves and concubines. Then there is Leviticus and Deuteronomy where you are ordered to stone gays, adulterers and bad mouthing offspring, so I call BS on your Disneyesque version of Christianity.

 

[Motar]

Power corrupts, as they say, and as Christopher Hitchens pointed out, power corrupts religion uniquely. Because it considers its doctrines uniquely right, it necessarily seeks to interfere in the lives of everybody, particularly non-believers, doubters, and those who don't toe the correct line. And the record shows that it will apply pretty nasty sanctions to them if it can.

Concerning the relationship between Dr. Francis Collins and Christopher Hitchens:

"Perhaps one of the greatest testaments to Collins’s evangelical Christian faith is that his outreach has extended to those who are non-believers. In December of 2011, famous atheist debater and author Christopher Hitchens died after complications from esophageal cancer. Hitchens, the author of God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything, had debated Collins about the existence of God prior to falling ill, and came to call Collins one of his friends, despite their disagreement about religion. 'It is a rather wonderful relationship,' Hitchens said. 'I won’t say he doesn’t pray for me, because I think he probably does; but he doesn’t discuss it with me.'

Collins came to assist in treating Hitchens using results of gene research and, ultimately, experimental drugs. It appears, from Collins’s writing, that the two men grew even closer together as they met to discuss the treatment possibilities. Hitchens described Collins as 'one of the greatest living Americans,' a 'great humanitarian' and 'the best of the faithful' who had approached him since his cancer diagnosis was made public. In a memorial piece after Hitchens’s death, Collins wrote, 'His knowledge of world religions was truly impressive – he had a much more detailed grasp of the Christian Bible than most Christians do. What he didn’t seem to be able to understand was how a thinking person could be a follower of Jesus. Perhaps I hoped to help with that." NIH Director Francis S. Collins: Faith a Conclusion Arrived at Through Rational Thought

Excellent topic maintenance, by the way, Dex : )

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Faith isn't what burned heretics at the stake. No where in the Bible (True Christianity) does it teach to murder. The perpetrators of such and similar crimes cannot be considered "real" Christians.

No, you can't get Christianity off the hook that way. Those deeds were done at the behest of church officials, in its name, for its protection and promulgation, when it had the power to do so, it remains responsible.

 

[cj44]

The OT is full of murder and mayhem at the behest of god, wiping out whole tribes and taking their women as slaves and concubines. Then there is Leviticus and Deuteronomy where you are ordered to stone gays, adulterers and bad mouthing offspring, so I call BS on your Disneyesque version of Christianity.

So, Cliffy. You imagine then that Jesus taught these things? In your words - "you are ordered to stone gays, adulterers and bad mouthing offspring". I think you are not rightly understanding the relationship between old and new testament. Also, you accuse God of being a murderer because you don't rightly understand the events of the Old Testament or the meaning behind those events.

Again you present Christianity as something it is not. I understand that you have read many books and talked with many people. Everyone on this forum could say as much. When a person commits to reading the Bible, it should be studied for understanding. Your statement suggests that you cannot accept the teachings of mainstream Christianity. You do not believe the Bible actually says these things? Or, do you believe the Bible as written teaches the tenets of current mainstream Christianity,but you do not believe these Christian tenets because they are based on false information?

I'm slow, so I am going to get real simple:
Which of these is an accurate statement or provide your own.

1. Cliffy does not believe any teachings of the Bible because the Bible gives false information.
2. Cliffy values the teachings of the Bible, which are in opposition to the tenets of mainstream Christianity.

No, you can't get Christianity off the hook that way. Those deeds were done at the behest of church officials, in its name, for its protection and promulgation, when it had the power to do so, it remains responsible.

Dex, Jesus was not real impressed with religious officials. So, I humbly disagree. No church official represents a persons faith in Christ. It isn't possible. False Christians & fraudulent churches have been with us throughout history.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Jesus wasn't Christian, but you miss the point. It was the official Christian church that did those things, it's responsible.

 

[Motar]

Interesting. However, after watching the process a friend went through as he was dying. I can think of a couple questions: why would a loving god allow such a good man to contract HIV (bad blood transfusion after falling through a window and getting a helluva gash in his forearm) and after trying every remedy he could find, why wouldn't he try prayer and stuff just out of sheer desperation? Well, he did contract it and did die, but "God works in mysterious ways, right"? Yeah, mysterious ways such as in anger, jealousy, and a pile of other human traits. It's a god, why wouldn't it have its own traits?

See, stuff like this just raises more questions in my mind, most of which I keep asking those people "in the know" and they all reach for the Bible and all begin this annoying habit of circular reasoning.

LG, do the "victims" of illness or fires bear any responsibility in their estates? Are there preventable illnesses or avoidable fires? If so, are God or the firefighters 100% responsible for the victims' deaths?

 

[cj44]

Jesus wasn't Christian, but you miss the point. It was the official Christian church that did those things, it's responsible.

Dexter, Yes, I will agree. The church and officials that ordered people to be burned at the stake are responsible. Every so often - actually rather often - we get corrupt leaders. Not only in religion but also in politics & business. Alongside those corrupt leaders there are other faithful and true disciples working to stop the evil.

 

[JLM]

Jesus wasn't Christian, but you miss the point. It was the official Christian church that did those things, it's responsible.

Ummmmmmmmmmm? I thought Christian means pertaining to Christ!

 

[cj44]

Ummmmmmmmmmm? I thought Christian means pertaining to Christ!

I think Dex mean Jesus was Jewish.

 

[Cliffy]

I'm slow, so I am going to get real simple:
Which of these is an accurate statement or provide your own.

1. Cliffy does not believe any teachings of the Bible because the Bible gives false information.
2. Cliffy values the teachings of the Bible, which are in opposition to the tenets of mainstream Christianity.

I believe the bible was put together be men for political reasons. I do not believe it is the word of god. Some of the teachings attributed to Jesus are universal truths, the rest is plagiarized from more ancient books and stories attributed to older gods. There is no mainstream Christianity. Christianity is divided into thousands of disagreeing sects. The only way to find the truth is to go to the Source, set up direct communication with your god. Books are BS. They are just someone else's opinions and nothing more.

"If two or more gather in my name" you have religion not spirituality.

 

[Motar]

Jesus wasn't Christian, but you miss the point. It was the official Christian church that did those things, it's responsible.

Agree, Dex. Jesus isn't Christian. He is Christ. Christian is the designation given to genuine followers of Christ:

"The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch." (Acts 11:26 NIV)

A genuine follower of Christ, Dex is one who reflects Christ in thought, desire, word and deed. The "official Christian church" is the body of Christ throughout history and throughout the world. What you seem to reference is organized religion - a different creature entirely.