Québec's destiny will be decided by Québécois.

[Ocean Breeze]

Plus, alone against the American beast....say good by to protectionism of anything, including their language and whatever else makes them "distinct".

indeed. Wonder if they have considered how vulnerable they would be. The US beast would just swallow them up and probably spit out their language.

I think that speaking French is the best protection around against US empire. I don't think the ROC is in the best position to tell us how to protect against US, mostly in culture.

interesting point....

How so?

umm....does not appear to be all that "grounded" in realty.....

 

[DasFX]

Re: RE: Québec's destiny will

This is not a decision that is made out of emotion only. There would have to be some REASON and PLANNING to it. In fact.......leave the passion out of it.....and let's stick to logic.

In theory yes, but if you take out the emotion and passion, well then you take out the human element out of it.

Why are you so concerned about the economy of Quebec. If they wish to leave, they must assume any and all consequences of that action.

Just as Quebec has the right to determine its future, the rest of Canada has that same right. Canada must make clear how it will interpret a vote to seperate. I think most Canadians will not want association, at least not for many, many years. Quebec must realize this and know that Canadian citizenship will be revoked of all Quebec born persons, that all services that the government of Canada provides will be stopped and so on. Make it clear that people know what to expect.

The idea is not to threaten them, but simply inform them.

 

[cub1c]

That's the thing. As stated before, you will not respond to questions and then get arrogant, refusing to "educate" us. Why are you here if you wil not participate in a discussion?

Because I'm no educator. I think there is a big difference between participating in a discussion and taking your hands to walk you through every aspect of our complex society.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

But here, we have a alternative, to take the matters in our hands.

one can surmise that Quebec is not the only province with this "alternative"

Heck....Alberta might even join the US and become the 51st state. :wink: :roll:

 

[no1important]

RE: Québec's destiny will

What about the First Nations? What if they want to stay in Canada? What about land claims?

I am curious how that will be handled.

 

[DasFX]

Re: RE: Québec's destiny will

Yes aquiring independance is a drastic change, but how electing Liberals over and over and over is a change? Seriously, look at the future, Liberals will still be in charge for years. And ideoligicaly, for me, I dont adhere to neoliberalism. Where are the choices?

But here, we have a alternative, to take the matters in our hands.

And sometimes, I think to myself that the ROC may be jealous about that.

Yes, I agree, there is no clear alternative right now, it is frustrating. But this feeling is shared by all Canadians now. I do not think the other provinces are jealous, they too could form unions alone or together and remove themselves from Canada.

Why do you have such faith in your Quebec politicians? I mean, they promise you lots and have yet to deliver anything. What if you separate and all the promised made are not kept? What if Quebec spirals down? What if all those American companies move from Quebec and take the jobs? What if Canada doesn't want association? What if admission to NAFTA and WTO isn't achieved?

It seems to me that more bad than good can come from this endevour? I still want to know how Quebec citizens will be better off than now. It has to be a lot better for the risk you want to take.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

In theory yes, but if you take out the emotion and passion, well then you take out the human element out of it.

wouldn't that make a refreshing change?? :wink: Scary to think what logic can do.. :wink:


not sure how ya got the impression that I am concerned about their economy. I am NOT. In fact If they are bent to separate into an Independant nation: let them. This long drawn out squabble and appeasing them is getting tiresome. Let them find out what it is like to be an independant nation. Who knows, they might do well at it. They want to start from scratch and mold something on their own....... go for it. The remainder of Canada has the right to decide how and when it will deal with it .....as it does with other nations....be it in Europe or ?? No special favors.....

 

[Ocean Breeze]

What if you separate and all the promised made are not kept? What if Quebec spirals down? What if all those American companies move from Quebec and take the jobs? What if Canada doesn't want association? What if admission to NAFTA and WTO isn't achieved?

ok.......now, we are asking some more excellent questions....

running 'what if " scenarios is part of this whole excercise too.

 

[cub1c]

Re: RE: Québec's destiny will

Why do you have such faith in your Quebec politicians?

I have BIG faith in Québecois. It's very different. Because in my vision, once independance is done, the PQ will probably break in parts. And for the better! I see having at least 4 partys, that already exist but since they are the minority in the minority, they don't get much attention. If it wasn't for the independance of Québec, I would not be voting PQ or BQ. I'm talking here of a redefinition of our political landscape.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Re: RE: Québec's destiny will

Why do you have such faith in your Quebec politicians?

I have BIG faith in Québecois. It's very different. Because in my vision, once independance is done, the PQ will probably break in parts. And for the better! I see having at least 4 partys, that already exist but since they are the minority in the minority, they don't get much attention. If it wasn't for the independance of Québec, I would not be voting PQ or BQ. I'm talking here of a redefinition of our political landscape.

ok........I really appreciate you (first) direct answer to the many questions posed to ya.

tell us more about the vision and how the politics would work.....

thanks.

(sincerely interested......)

 

[cub1c]

In fact If they are bent to separate into an Independant nation: let them.

Please tell this to your candidates!

Let them find out what it is like to be an independant nation. Who knows, they might do well at it. They want to start from scratch and mold something on their own....... go for it. The remainder of Canada has the right to decide how and when it will deal with it .....as it does with other nations....be it in Europe or ?? No special favors.....

Yes we'll be good at it. I really don't see how we can be worst than anybody. Start from scratch? We start from now.

Yes Canada decides what they want, but being closed toward a country that was once within yours would be the best proof availaible of why achieving independance was the best thing to do.

 

[Said1]

That's the thing. As stated before, you will not respond to questions and then get arrogant, refusing to "educate" us. Why are you here if you wil not participate in a discussion?

Because I'm no educator. I think there is a big difference between participating in a discussion and taking your hands to walk you through every aspect of our complex society.

No one is asking you to do that. Some very simple questions were posed to you - no answer. Some scenarios where presented to you - none of which anyone really know answer and you don't comment or say "it's for us to decide". Asking you how is not asking you to educate, it's asking your personal opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Yes Canada decides what they want, but being closed toward a country that was once within yours would be the best proof availaible of why achieving independance was the best thing to do.

that sounds like a set up :x

 

[cub1c]

Re: RE: Québec's destiny will

Why do you have such faith in your Quebec politicians?

I have BIG faith in Québecois. It's very different. Because in my vision, once independance is done, the PQ will probably break in parts. And for the better! I see having at least 4 partys, that already exist but since they are the minority in the minority, they don't get much attention. If it wasn't for the independance of Québec, I would not be voting PQ or BQ. I'm talking here of a redefinition of our political landscape.

ok........I really appreciate you (first) direct answer to the many questions posed to ya.

tell us more about the vision and how the politics would work.....

thanks.

(sincerely interested......)

I can't know how it would work, but I'm not the only one that would want a fragmented PQ to form other forms of party, or boosting party like UFP or even NDP (but since most of the new partys would be like the NDP, there is no need to). Because you may not know it, but the PQ is a party of coalitions, having those coalitions free to build their party can only do good in our new democracy.

 

[DasFX]

Re: RE: Québec's destiny will

Why do you have such faith in your Quebec politicians?

I have BIG faith in Québecois. It's very different.

How can you have such faith in Québecois. I mean no disrespect, but look at the sponsorship scandal, it involved many Quebecois. Has not the Québecois failed Quebecers already? I mean, broken promisies by politicians is the same in any language. I know that the PQ has not delivered good government and has broken promises left, right and centre; that is why they are no longer in power. How can you be so sure, on these promises which are so dramatic and so important and have irreversible consequences.

Do you not at least entertain the thought that separation could be disasterous for Quebec?

 

[DasFX]

Yes we'll be good at it. I really don't see how we can be worst than anybody.

So all this risk for what? I mean if someone was going to sell me this high risk move like separation, where the voice of the people would be diminished on the world stage and where there could be economic disaster, I would want huge gains in return.

How is separation going to help or enhance the day to day lives of les Québecois? What really will change?

 

[I think not]

DasFX,

I remember your posts from way back earlier in the year, you were always very passionate about understanding the root causes of separatism. You have an admirable balance in your views.

I truly enjoy reading your posts.

Cheers.

 

[DasFX]

DasFX,

I remember your posts from way back earlier in the year, you were always very passionate about understanding the root causes of separatism. You have an admirable balance in your views.

I truly enjoy reading your posts.

Cheers.

Ya, I was banned for the longest while for being too passionate about my views, especially when they conflicted with the moderator. Anyhow, I'm glad that I can contribute once again, especially during this election campaign.

 

[s_lone]

Re: RE: Québec's destiny will

Why do you have such faith in your Quebec politicians?

I have BIG faith in Québecois. It's very different.

How can you have such faith in Québecois. I mean no disrespect, but look at the sponsorship scandal, it involved many Quebecois. Has not the Québecois failed Quebecers already? I mean, broken promisies by politicians is the same in any language. I know that the PQ has not delivered good government and has broken promises left, right and centre; that is why they are no longer in power. How can you be so sure, on these promises which are so dramatic and so important and have irreversible consequences.

Do you not at least entertain the thought that separation could be disasterous for Quebec?

I too have respect for your objectivity DasFX. Now let me answer your question about trust and the sponsership scandal. I really don't see how I should lose trust in Quebecois because of the sponsership scandal. If I were to lose trust, it would be towards Quebec federalists but not towards Quebecois. Quebecers are not corrupt. Neither are Canadians. Only individuals were corrupt in this scandal.

I strongly believe the PQ has shown it can be a good government. It's been in power many times since 1976 and I don't see why people would keep re-electing a bad government. Of course, like all governments it made mistakes. In 2003 the PQ had been in power for quite a while and I think the sponsership scandal had not yet been revealed at the elections (I'll have to check on this though...). The sovergnist movement was in a relatively stagnant period and people basically thought a change of government could be a good thing. Even some soft seperatists figured it would help the PQ to be in opposition for a while... I think this is unfolding to be true.

The Liberals and their leader Jean Charest made the promise to lower income taxes and solve the health care problem, (that's why people voted for them), but they have done neither yet. The Liberals too have done some good for Quebec in the past. I think it's a good thing they are around. Independance may be taking a while to happen but at least the project is being questionned and it's growing and building up in maturity. The movement is a lot more inclusive than it was when it started. Opposition is always good.

 

[DasFX]

Re: RE: Québec's destiny will

I too have respect for your objectivity DasFX. Now let me answer your question about trust and the sponsership scandal. I really don't see how I should lose trust in Quebecois because of the sponsership scandal. If I were to lose trust, it would be towards Quebec federalists but not towards Quebecois. Quebecers are not corrupt. Neither are Canadians. Only individuals were corrupt in this scandal.

Thanks for the comment. Now if it is true that only individuals are corrupt, but not groups like Canadians or Quebecers (who are Canadians), then why is the sponsorship scandal pushing away Quebec from the federation. Is it not irrational or take such a bold step because of the actions of a few people who abused power, especially when the outrage is felt across the nation? If Canadians in general are not corrupt, why is this scandal increasing support for independence? Or is this shift to the BQ simply a protest?