Quebec’s Civil Code denies women’s basic freedom of choice

[gerryh]

Basically, Quebec civil law does nothing of the sort when it comes to the author of the OP's accusation. No women have their rights suppressed or taken away at all. They all have the right to apply for a name change if they so wish to take their husbands last name or hyphenate theirs and their husbands.


Cliffy's contention that a woman taking a man's last name IS a sign of ownership is out right bullshyte in this day and age.

ROFLMFAO

I just asked my darling Jenny why she took my last name when we got married and told about Cliffy's ownership contention. She damn near pissed herself laughing at the whole idea of "ownership". You really need to move into, at least, the 20th century there Cliffy.

 

[lone wolf]

Why do women preserve their fathers' names?
Why don't they take their mothers'?

If you can afford the change, you can buy whatever name you want.

 

[TenPenny]

.

Alain Roy, a family law professor at the University of Montreal says something I totally agree with:
“There is a new generation of women raised in an equal society who don’t feel threatened by men,” said Roy. “For them, taking their husband’s name doesn’t mean living under their husband’s shadow.”

What it does mean, however, is constantly changing their names if they get divorced and remarried. And if you are a professional, you have to change your name with every professional organization. And then you have to get your passport updated. Honestly, it sounds like a pain in the butt.

I know some doctors who, when they get married, have to change all of their names and registrations, and if they're incorporated, they even have to change the name of the incorporated entity. And then if they get divorced, do it all over again.

Why?

Basically, Quebec civil law does nothing of the sort when it comes to the author of the OP's accusation. No women have their rights suppressed or taken away at all. They all have the right to apply for a name change if they so wish to take their husbands last name or hyphenate theirs and their husbands.


Cliffy's contention that a woman taking a man's last name IS a sign of ownership is out right bullshyte in this day and age.

ROFLMFAO

I just asked my darling Jenny why she took my last name when we got married and told about Cliffy's ownership contention. She damn near pissed herself laughing at the whole idea of "ownership". You really need to move into, at least, the 20th century there Cliffy.

You're missing the point, that's what it used to mean, and where it came from. A woman becomes part of the husband's family.

 

[Ron in Regina]

If you can afford the change, you can buy whatever name you want.

Like "Beezow Doo-Doo Zopittybop-Bop-Bop" did. If you
haven't heard of this guy yet, you ca alway's Google his name.

 

[s_lone]

''It is time to put an end to this sexist, diminishing and dictatorial law and give us FREEDOM OF CHOICE.''

How is this law sexist if it applies to EVERYONE, men included?

 

[Madi]

What it does mean, however, is constantly changing their names if they get divorced and remarried. And if you are a professional, you have to change your name with every professional organization. And then you have to get your passport updated. Honestly, it sounds like a pain in the butt.

I know some doctors who, when they get married, have to change all of their names and registrations, and if they're incorporated, they even have to change the name of the incorporated entity. And then if they get divorced, do it all over again.

Why?



You're missing the point, that's what it used to mean, and where it came from. A woman becomes part of the husband's family.

She "becomes part of her husband's family" or remains "property of her father"...
Poor women... we never seem to be independent )

 

[gerryh]

Taking the man's name is a mark of ownership by the man. That is why it was instituted in the first place, Why, in this day and age would a woman want to be owned by her husband?

You're missing the point, that's what it used to mean, and where it came from. A woman becomes part of the husband's family.

You did read what Cliffy wrote, right? Here, I even marked and increased the word that shows present tense. Not past tense, but present tense. I know what it USED to mean, and that is why I suggested Cliffy move up to AT LEAST the 20th century.

 

[lone wolf]

Like "Beezow Doo-Doo Zopittybop-Bop-Bop" did. If you
haven't heard of this guy yet, you ca alway's Google his name.

Just the first page tells me his family likely disowned him for ruining a good name....

ETA: uh-oh.... I said OWN. Better watch for incoming....

 

[Madi]

Just the first page tells me his family likely disowned him for ruining a good name....

) I couldn't believe my eyes when I first read about it.
His name used to be Jeffrey Drew Wilschke.

 

[taxslave]

First of all, I must say that I am surprised to read certain comments.
It is weird to see that the fact that a married woman in Quebec is not legally allowed to take her husband's surname and use it on her official documents doesn't bother some of the feminists who bothered to write comments on this thread.
They are very vocal when it comes to trumpeting the virtue of being a single mother or a teenage one or even the right to be a prostitute (extreme feminism, isn't it?), but are quasi-inexistent when it comes to condemning "honour killings" or simply a situation such as this one in Quebec.
Some comments show nothing but ignorance and bitterness, as well as some sort of irritation related to Quebec.
For those who are not informed about the law in Quebec:
A woman married in Quebec after 1981 MUST RETAIN HER MAIDEN NAME AND ALL HER OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS ARE EMITTED SUCH AS.
In Quebec, you can change your given name or surname to whatever you want (for a fee), but not to your husband’s surname.

FORCING women to keep their maiden name is, in my humble opinion, a blatant violation of human rights.
This is a matter of basic freedom of choice.

In numerous civilized countries, a married woman CAN CHOOSE THE SURNAME she wants to go by.
In the rest of Canada, women also have this basic right.

In Quebec, before 1981, women had to take their husband’s surname.
After 1981, women ARE NOT ALLOWED to take their husband’s surname.

One compulsion replaced by another one.

How is it a problem? Is a Quebec woman obligated to change her name ... and, if not, what's the problem? She can change her name or keep the one she was born with ... how many more rights does a woman from Quebec need? Do I have to be from Quebec to believe that I will have more rights if I automatically loose my name when I get married?

One more right … the right to choose. I assume that you have it.

On top of that, the article is just confused. It is not that women are forbidden from taking the names of their spouse, it is just that in Quebec, a name change is not automatic with a marriage. A spouse who wishes to take the partner's name must just apply like any other legal person. It is not a human rights issue at all but rather a question of civil convenience. Presumably in Quebec they decided that the allowance for an automatic name change implied that women should do it. So by making it somewhat difficult, they ensure that it truly is the woman's choice and not just a reflex from patriarchical tradition.

So no, I will not sign this survey. I think it is badly misguided.

Send an e-mail to Directeur de l'état civil du Québec to get informed. Tell them that you want to legally use your husband’s surname on all your official documents.

When I got married, my last name didn't automatically change and I don't live in Quebec. Where does a woman's name automatically change through marriage? I've been married but I don't want to change my last name ... university degrees are issued under a specific name ... changing the name screws up stuff like that.

In Quebec, the bride’s surname remains the same; it is not automatically changed…
Japan doesn’t seem to be that “screwed up”, and they also have university degrees…
Even in such a traditional society, today a couple can choose the family name they want to go by. It can be the man’s or the woman’s.

By the way, I think it's that way in most countries in the world anyway. I know the Chinese, Etheopians, many Arabs and many Persians keep their maden names too.

True, as in many cultures there is no equivalent of an English (western) “surname”.
But in numerous European cultures, a woman is allowed to legally use her husband’s surname.

I guess that some of the commentators are not of European stock, so this could be an obstacle in understanding the issue.

Traditionally, Arabs have not used family names in the Western manner and many still do not. Instead, in many cases, they simply add their father's first name or grandfather's first name.
These “sur”-names might be preceded by the “bin/ben (male)”, which means “son of” or “bint” which means “daughter of”.
Some Arabs go by their clan/tribe name.
In many Arab villages, people belong to the same clan, thus they have the same “surname”.

In some areas in India, the middle name is vital. In case of males, the middle name is his father's name while for females, the middle name is the husband's name.

As you might have observed, all Sikhs take the same second name: Singh meaning (lions). In the case of males, the third or last name is a caste name. In the case of females, the third name is often Kaur which identifies her gender.

So, as you can see, it’s like apples and oranges…

This petition is about the right to choose your surname upon marriage.
Why is this that difficult to accept?

I don't think you are reading the law correctly or it is loosing something in translation to English.As near as I can make out there is nothing preventing you from legally changing your surname to that of your husband if you choose. As I recall from my first marriage we had to pay for changing my wife's name to mine and all her ID. Most European women that I know kept their maiden name for legal purposes although some go by their husband's name. Also keeping your maiden name makes life much simpler when divorce time rolls around.

 

[Madi]

I don't think you are reading the law correctly or it is loosing something in translation to English.As near as I can make out there is nothing preventing you from legally changing your surname to that of your husband if you choose. As I recall from my first marriage we had to pay for changing my wife's name to mine and all her ID. Most European women that I know kept their maiden name for legal purposes although some go by their husband's name. Also keeping your maiden name makes life much simpler when divorce time rolls around.

Isn't it sad that women should keep their maiden names in order to be "prepared" for a divorce?
If your first marriage took place in Quebec and your wife was allowed to use your name on all her documents... was it before 1981?

 

[taxslave]

Isn't it sad that women should keep their maiden names in order to be "prepared" for a divorce?
If your first marriage took place in Quebec and your wife was allowed to use your name on all her documents... was it before 1981?

It was before 1981 but if Quebec is east of Hope it wasn't there.

 

[Cliffy]

I can't be bothered to check it out, but I was under the impression that it is legal to have at least one alias in Canada.

And gerry, yes, the original intent of taking the man's name was a sign of ownership. That it is not considered that by many people today does not change the original intent. It is like a an old law that is no longer enforced, like spitting on a sidewalk used to be illegal in most towns.

 

[Sparrow]

You live in Quebec?

Yes, I was born here.

 

[Ariadne]

I've read through the thread, clicked on a link or two, and it seems to me that there's nothing different or special happening in Quebec regarding name changes. People are born with a name and they have that for life. People can change their last name to that of their spouse when getting married, but there's no requirement or assumption that their name will change at the time of marriage. There is nothing preventing anyone from changing a last name to that of a spouse. Men and women are treated equally, and neither is stripped of a name through marriage. It does seem that Quebec is not inclined to allow people to change their names without good cause. Patriarchy (system of government in which the father is head of the family) is not a good reason.

Is there any place where someone's name automatically changes when he or she gets married? That's not what happens in other provinces and not what happens in Europe. Personally, I think women prefer to have the choice than to automatically loose their name when married. I don't think any feminists would be in favour of women loosing a right upon marriage. In fact, I suspect that the feminist movement was behind the change.

"The [1981] civil law reform took place shortly after the creation of the Quebec Charter of Rights in which equality between men and women was clearly stated, recalls Alain Roy, a family law professor at the University of Montreal.

“It was a logical follow-up to translate that equality into name attribution. And it was a highly symbolic gain for the feminist movement,” said Roy in an interview."

Quebec newlywed furious she can't take her husband

"Nancy Ruth was part of the 1981 push for the inclusion of the equity clauses ( 15 & 28) in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. "

On the Job - Social Activists

I've read enough to now understand that this change - where women are guaranteed equality - was a direct result of feminism. The Status of Women Action Committee was behind this all the way.

"Perhaps the most significant resolution required that, “clause one [of the Charter] be a statement of purpose, that all rights are guaranteed equally to men and women, with no limitations.”

women?s constitution conference :: section15.ca

Isn't it sad that women should keep their maiden names in order to be "prepared" for a divorce?
If your first marriage took place in Quebec and your wife was allowed to use your name on all her documents... was it before 1981?

Women fought hard for equality and were very proud of the achievement in 1981. Included in that equality is the guarantee that women have the right to keep their last name. This right has absolutely nothing to do with divorce.

 

[L Gilbert]

Again, the legalese in the Qc law states, "Women keep their birth name after marriage and continue to exercise their civil rights under that name, i.e. they must use their birth name in contracts, on credit cards, on their driver's licence, etc. They are free however to assume their husband's name socially."
In other words, in order to acquire their husband's name or to change to a hyphenated name, they HAVE to spend extra money to change their name legally.
I checked, it's the same as here in BC. It just seems a bit weird considering you can be considered married even after a short length of time as simply a cohabiting couple by PARTS of the fed gov't (like Revenue Canada), and yet other parts of the fed consider you still an individual. But, whatever. The fed is odd at the best of times.

 

[Ariadne]

Again, the legalese in the Qc law states, "Women keep their birth name after marriage and continue to exercise their civil rights under that name, i.e. they must use their birth name in contracts, on credit cards, on their driver's licence, etc. They are free however to assume their husband's name socially."
In other words, in order to acquire their husband's name or to change to a hyphenated name, they HAVE to spend extra money to change their name legally.
I checked, it's the same as here in BC. It just seems a bit weird considering you can be considered married even after a short length of time as simply a cohabiting couple by PARTS of the fed gov't (like Revenue Canada), and yet other parts of the fed consider you still an individual. But, whatever. The fed is odd at the best of times.

In 1981, the Status of Women Action Committee (ball breaking feminists) fought hard to ensure that women were considered equal to men in the Charter of Rights. With that equality came the right of all women to be treated equal to men in all respects. Since men have always kept their own name, regardless of whether they were married, from that time on women kept their name regardless of whether they were married. No matter where one is in Canada, there is always a fee to change a name, whether that change is to a name similar to a spouse or otherwise. What is happening in Quebec is no different than the rest of Canada with, it appears, one exception. It seems that in Quebec there must be a good reason for a name change, and it seems that the reason of "patriarchy" is not a good one. Men would face the same difficulties in changing their last name for reasons of "matriarchy", so there is equality.

The term feminism was tossed around upthread with the implication that feminists should be all over this. They were all over it in 1981 to ensure that women retained the right to keep their last name. Feminists are not the ones that are upset about this right.

In fact, the real problem has nothing to do wth feminism or women. This is a point that needs to be addressed my men and women alike regarding the name changing rules.

 

[Niflmir]

Isn't it sad that women should keep their maiden names in order to be "prepared" for a divorce?
If your first marriage took place in Quebec and your wife was allowed to use your name on all her documents... was it before 1981?

You're completely missing the point on what taxslave meant by "... for legal purposes ...". Changing your name in Europe, where ID's are mandatory, is quite a bit hairier than in Canada, where people can mostly self certify. Most people don't want to carry around a large marriage certificate and birth certificate just so that they can identify themselves when they want to renew their drivers licenses or see their mom in the hospital.

You really have a very negative view on this entire thing. What is it about women keeping their own names that threatens you so much?

 

[Ariadne]

You're completely missing the point on what taxslave meant by "... for legal purposes ...". Changing your name in Europe, where ID's are mandatory, is quite a bit hairier than in Canada, where people can mostly self certify. Most people don't want to carry around a large marriage certificate and birth certificate just so that they can identify themselves when they want to renew their drivers licenses or see their mom in the hospital.

You really have a very negative view on this entire thing. What is it about women keeping their own names that threatens you so much?

My understanding, from reading up a bit on the subject, is that Quebec has strict guidelines about name changes. It has nothing to do with feminism or women. The strict name changing regulations apply to all people from Quebec. When women achieved equality in 1981, they fell under the same guidelines that applied to men.

If people in Quebec want change, they have to talk to the right people about relaxing name changing regulations as they apply to all people of Quebec. It seems that the strict name changing laws make if more difficult for criminals to hide behind a new name ... which seems like a good law. I'm not sure how anyone managed to twist this into a feminist issue.

 

[Niflmir]

My understanding, from reading up a bit on the subject, is that Quebec has strict guidelines about name changes. It has nothing to do with feminism or women. The strict name changing regulations apply to all people from Quebec. When women achieved equality in 1981, they fell under the same guidelines that applied to men.

If people in Quebec want change, they have to talk to the right people about relaxing name changing regulations as they apply to all people of Quebec. It seems that the strict name changing laws make if more difficult for criminals to hide behind a new name ... which seems like a good law. I'm not sure how anyone managed to twist this into a feminist issue.

Indeed. I can understand the desire for some traditionalists to make it easy for them to change names with a marriage, but there are really good reasons why changing your name should be difficult. For men and women both. The idea that you have to apply for it, and really want it, seems like a good idea to me.