Quebec shouldn't separate from Canada
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Re: RE: Quebec shouldn't separate from Canada
A bit late on the reply.
I'm sure everyone missed me, dearly, but there's no need to throw any parades. :shock:
Say "whatever" about economics? Okay. Montreal has rubber wheels on its subways, more expensive to maintain but for less noise and a more comfortable ride. The TTC/Toronto Transit Commission has slashed and burned and fares are double what they are in Montreal for frequent users with monthly passes. It lost over a million people in ridership from 2001-2003 alone -- into cars to add to the gridlock and air pollution that kills over 5,000 Toronto residents a year and sends over 7,000 to emergency wards because they can't breathe. Including my wife who has to go to the hospital at least once a week to get the crap drained from her lungs from the air in this city. She's 35 not 80. She had mild asthma in Vancouver for 25 years. Her lungs were bleeding within a month after she moved to Toronto.
Toronto is selling off utility poles and street lights to try to make ends meet due to $12.6 billion disappearing from the City of Toronto proper, no GTA or municipal area, last year alone. And both the Ontario and confederate feds download their own expenses onto Toronto city hall. There's nothing left to sell off in this city due to tax pillaging (revenues collected and never seen again -- not here, they're easily seen all over the Ontarios and Canadas). The city could try to sell public schools off, has already sold off former school property and cut everything else to the bone, but most of them should have been condemned a decade ago and haven't seen a cent since. Nothing would buy them. Every province in the Canadas gets more money back per capita, from the feds, out of Ontario's taxes, than Ontario gets back itself per capita.
Ontario has a $23-billion fiscal "gap" ("imbalance"/scam by the confederate feds) in what its businesses and citizens pay out in federal taxes and what it got back in all confederate expenditures to Ontario, last year alone, based on the per capita average that the other 9 provinces got back from the confederate feds per capita out of our taxes ("revenues" due to taxes that are called "premiums" and "plans" and such). The government of Newfoundland&Labrador gets over $2,000 more, per capita, from our revenues, to spend on its budgets/citizens, than the Ontario government gets to keep per capita out of our own revenues.
60% of newcomers to the Canadas decide to settle in pretty much the Toronto area: 40% (averages) in the municipality of Toronto proper.
Quebec gets over $3,000 from the confederate feds per new immigrant, refugee (if it takes any with its "special" immigration laws) and even migrant. Ontario gets $500 per newcomer, as always, a pittance of its own taxes back. Every province gets more per capita around absolutely everything than Ontario gets back out of its own taxes, every year. And it gets worse every year, not better.
Ontario is the one and only jurisdiction that has always paid more into this "federation" than it's taken out of it. It doesn't owe one cent of the federal debt but pays 50% of the costs of servicing it, so the President of the confederate Treasury Board says, not that he'd know, along with numbers I couldn't even keep up with because I didn't have a tape in the machine and he was rattling them off one after the other. And he's from Manitoba, not Ontario. He just wasn't in Manitoba, he was in Toronto on a local news program.
During the 2004 "equalization" (Ontario is the one and only province that has never collected equalization and of course not: someone has to pay for it all and it'd be rather difficult to pay more into the "federation" every year while collecting "equalization" from what in this country? Nothing could hope to "fund" Toronto let alone Ontario) welfare handout renewal, Reg Alcock, President of the confederate Treasury Board, got a lot of exercise.
Every jurisdiction but Ontario was bitching for more more, gimme gimme in handouts, Alcock stood up, "Ontario simply cannot afford more" and sat down. Next "question" gimmme gimmme, more more, Alcock stood up again, "Ontario simply cannot afford more" and sat down and might as well have just stuck the answer on a sign in his chair and left. Never once did he say "Quebec simply cannot afford more" or "British Columbia simply cannot afford more" or "Alberta simply cannot afford more." Just Ontario; and with good reason:
Real gross domestic product, expenditure-based, by province and territory
millions of chained (1997) dollars
* % of GDP is percent of TOTAL, which Statistics Canada doesn't even bother to provide, let alone percentages, let alone a summary. It makes everything far too clear.
Source: Statistics Canada
Date modified (by source): 2006-01-05
Last updated/checked (by me): 2006-01-12
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Ontarians don't even know what "equalization" is. Can't afford more? Who ever consulted the Ontario legislature or taxpayers to ask if they could afford to pay out one cent in "equalization" in the first place, let alone explaining it to everyone given that we've never received it so have no clue that it even EXISTS: Penizalize economic success to reward failure with zero accountability, less than zero common sense and disastrous results that speak for themselves just with "provincial" populations (lack of markets; other than in the Windsor-Quebec City<->Québec City Windsor corridor) and GDPs.
It doesn't take a degree in economics to see that there is nothing out there but more and more expenses for the successful economic regions of the Québec City-Windsor<->Windsor Quebec City corridor (and the Lower Mainland-south Vancouver Island, but there is no such thing as "federal recipts" from B.C.; everything gets transfer payments from the confederates, namely the Canada Health Transfer (CHT) and Canada Social Transfer (CST) so it's never a matter of what is paid out, but what is paid out to the confederate feds and is not received back; and per capita around all of it because it's how the disastrous mess of "tranfers payments" work; blindly, not by need, not by real expenses but "per person" in gigantic things like the Ontarios and Québecs, BCs and Albertas.
All federal disbursements received by whatever jurisdiction's ("province" or territory) dept. of finance have to be subtracted from all federal receipts from the jurisdition then divided by the Apri 1 (end of fiscal year) population estimates for every "province" and territory to even begin to figure out what is truly paying out what -- due to all of the returns of revenues -- which is where the Ontarios get completely ripped off.
It's never worked and it never will. I'd rather send the money to Mexico to develop its markets. At least it has a population. Equalization was "formalized" in 1957 with rules that Alberta broke immediately, getting equalization welfare handouts from South Ontario taxpayers while 0% of the oil and natural gas revenues were taxed or even taken into account as income for the Alberta government to spend. It went on for seven years. The rule is generous enough around natural resources. Only 75% of the 100% of provincial revenues generated from natural resources are counted as income to be applied to equalization welfare handouts.
It's exactly how equalization is supposed to work -- as welfare but for provinces that fall below the national average per capita provincial revenues. It doesn't work like that, it's been corrupted with side-deals to buy votes beyond belief and not particuarly around Québec -- much more particularly around the Atlantic Canadas, Manitoba and Saskatchewan.
Try that on real welfare, claiming that only 75% of your income should be deducted from your welfare check because you worked around natural resources, landscaping or something. Or try claiming that ZERO per cent of your income matters, as Alberta did from 1957 to 1964, while its provincial dept of finance raked in billions of dollars hand over fist in oil/gas royalties -- which Nova Scotia and Newfoundland have cited over and over again as their reason that 0% of the royalties and revenues their departments of finance get from our (federal jurisdiction and they would not have offshore rigs but not for the billions of dollars handed to them by the usual; the Québec City-Windsor corridor -- the economic regions in it that cause the transportation/communications corridors to exist in the first place).
It's all "equalization" is -- welfare. If someone makes $500 in a month with some temporary work, best of luck (in Ontario anyway) trying to claim that you were working around natural resources so only 75% of your real income should be deducted from your handout -- let alone 0% being deducted. And it's exactly what Newfoundland&Labrador and Nova Scotia cite around doing the same thing, because it's exactly what Alberta did.
It should never have been allowed to happen around Alberta in the first place but it set a precedent and now every jurisdiction (except Ontario of course) wants to keeep all provincial revenues generated by any natural resources (people are natural resources -- and they cost money after they stop generating revenues; in healthcare, possibly social services, pensions; no spent and abandoned mine/quarry or anything else around primary industries, empty fields, etc., end up costing us anything when they stop producing -- only people do and people are certainly natural resources) to be tax-free and with 0% of the (provincial government's) income applied against their welfare handouts paid for almost entirely by 'Ontario' (south) taxpayers.
But it goes on in the Ontarios as well. If the Ontario section of the Windsor-Quebec City corridor (Inner Canada, "Main Street") split into South Ontario, the rest, the mass bulk of the Ontarios, would be on equalization overnight and we could either pay for their law enforcement and healthcare and other handouts through the Ontario feds as it's done now, or via the confederate feds; with more expenses.
They'd have to move in RCMP law enforcement and then we'd have to pay the confederate feds for that, their healthcare and at a different rate per capita (higher) than South Ontario got, social services, post-secondary educations, they'd pay less into E.I. and get more as the Atlantic Canadas, Manitoba and Saskatchewan do, and South Ontario would have to pay for it all.
So the only solution is to get South Ontario out of this 'federation." Everything in the country hates it anyway and should throw parades when we invite the Quebec portion of the Windsor-Quebec City corridor (as we define it, not how the confederate feds define it -- no supply, just what's needed for the PRODUCTION of high value goods and services via tolerance, open-mindedness, quality of life, cooperation; because it is in our interests. We're stuck with what's south of and on the 401/Autoroute 20 and north in a few areas, like Ottawa-Hull/Gatineau and out/south from Quebec City to maintain jurisdicton over the St. Lawrence, and join us in an economic union.
Then more parades would be thrown in the Outer Canadas over hated "Quebec" being out of their hair. Then the Vancouver area, Lower Mainland-south Vancouver Island, also tolerant, open-minded, inclusive, etc., because it's necessary around diverse economies/markets for maximum innovation/productivity and we three can take on the world. The rest can keep producing this crap:
Gross domestic product at basic prices primary industries
$ constant 1997 (millions) 2004
Source: Statistics Canada, Primary Industries
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A whole 5.9% of the total economic output; without subtracting subsidies and other confederate "expenditures". It's night and day and we are not economically or socio-economically/demographically compatible with the rest of the Canadas, but we are with each other -- once the mess "Great" Britain created is undone and you, we, us, our economies, over 70% of the economic output of the Canadas with the Lower Mainland-south Vancouver Island in "our" economic union, with a total re-write on a new union constitution that provides all of the benefits of being a republic without actually having to do it.
Windsor-Quebec City Corridor, 2001
Ontario Section
10,706,513 93% of Ontario's population
Quebec Section
6,327,354 87% of Quebec's population
Total Population
17,033,867 57% of Canada's population
Source: Statistics Canada 2001 Census
With separate governments and no need for any federal goverment, just union services we decide to keep in common instead of duplicating, like the Bank of Canada/currency, fiscal policies that would actually make sense to us and our investors for a change and much more stable dollar, no fake monarch, new curency has to be minted/printed, no royal or religious/ministerial titles allowed in government anything, "equal representation" is moot. You've got your government, we've got ours. We can create a new union constitution along with the economic charter for the rules of the economic union/trade, and whatever we agree upon goes into the union constitution, with a sane anemnding formula and things we don't agree upon go in our republic constitutions.
We're the only real trading partners in the Canadas, "Main Street," the above and the Greater Sudbury Area is included in it by the confederate feds but won't be included in it by us. It's supply and we want to pay less for supply and so does the U.S.
It makes economic sense, it makes socio-economic sense (rural Quebec outside the Quebec section of "Main Street" has been polled many times and they identify more with what they call "Western Canada"; the vast portion of Ontario outside "Main Street"; not the south and certainly not Toronto or Montréal, which is what they see "the south" as: mainly because it's true). The rest of the Québecs and Ontarios would be far happier with their own governments/representatives dealing with their issues; not the issues of the Québec City-Windsor corridor: and vice versa as long as the Québec section/"republic" runs its own show around everything we don't need centralized union services for, which includes most of them, and ditto with the Ontario section. The Lower Mainland-south Vancouver Island isn't going to sit out with the rest of the Outer Canadas with their economies based almost entirely on the export of raw/semi-processed volatile commodities and will be a piece of cake to get into our economic union.
Of course we need supply but we import it from all over the world. Quebec has no bauxite, for example, but is the world's third largest producer of aluminum. Instead of exporting natural resources (and the jobs and spin-off jobs, expanded markets/economies/revenues bases) that go along with not just pawning off raw commodities, it imports bauxite from Australia, Guinea, Jamaica and Brazil. Aluminum isn't a manufactured product (as is) but it's worth more than bauxite is. Buy low, sell high and create jobs/new markets, etc. in the process instead of what the rest of the Outer Canadas does for the most part: export commodities (and the jobs, new markets, etc.) to wherever, mainly the U.S., then import finished goods for a lot more than the commodities were sold for: sell low, buy high. It's why they have such puny economies with no markets to speak of.
We don't pay Australia's state or federal debts, bills, provide their governments with handouts, supply their law enforcement and even TV/radio stations and they certainly don't get representation in our governments just because we happen to import supply from them. It's no different for the Outer Canadas.
And it doesn't mean that South Quebec (or South Ontario) give up jurisdiction over their current borders (which is all of the Canadas). We'll be able to subsidize our own farmers by four to five times what they get now - to bring them up to the level of American farm subsidies. We'll still have to pay for their law enforcement, healthcare, infrastructure period. But we make sure we keep enough of our own revenues to keep our economies expanding in the south where it's a no-brainer. And the Quebec portion of the Windsor-Quebec City corridor/Inner Canada/Main Street, will be a hell of a lot better off in an economic union with the Ontario portion as opposed to getting its share of the federal debt dumped on it, having to buy out all the land in Quebec, other than in the south, exactly where it needs it, it's got land deeds for that. But nothing to the north and it'd have to buy out Indian Country.
I'm on Quebec's side, Montréal's side, and specifically the head offices in it and economics of the Windsor-Montreal corridor from this end. Québec City is a satellite of Montréal, much as Ottawa is of Toronto; on the business level. The political structural and systems levels of the Ontario and confederate feds are less than worthless garbage. Political systems don't function and can't function when the structure makes no sense at all, regardless of any systemic changes.
We cannot maintain an economic union with the Outer Canadas. We can't use the same central bank/fiscal policies/exchange rate. Their economies are based on volatile commodities. Our economies are knowledge-based, rely upon R&D to develop high value services, primarily, and high value specialty manufactured goods; not commodities/supply. We have the markets, which is called demand not supply. "Ontario" ... keeping the 2001 population numbers in mind, and I'll show you the metropolitan areas that make up what the feds think is the Ontario section of the Windsor-Quebec City corridor, which just means cutting out Sudbury, it's way the hell up north and is supply, is, well, you do know that the U.S. and "Canada" are the largest bilateral economic trading partners in the history of the planet? "Ontario" is the U.S.'s 2nd largest trading partner on the planet; in commerce, not bulk or tonnages of commodities at $40/weight or volume. As in 2nd behind only the other other 9 provinces and three territories of the Canadas.
And if the Quebec section of the Windsor-Quebec City is pulled from the equasion, we are the U.S.'s largest economic trading partners on the planet. Some 37 states sell more to us (markets and with money to spend) than to any other state in the U.S. or the entire EU and Japan combined and all kinds of crazy combinations.
One more time:
Windsor-Quebec City Corridor, 2001
Ontario Section
10,706,513 93% of Ontario's population
Quebec Section
6,327,354 87% of Quebec's population
Total Population
17,033,867 57% of Canada's population
Source: Statistics Canada 2001 Census
Now do you know what census metropolitan areas (CMAs) are? I don't either as far as figuring them out (has to have a population of 100,000 or more in the Canadas); but every country has them around cities. 100,000 people is a town as far as I'm concerned but I don't make up the rules. These are the CMAs of the Canadas as defined for the 2001 census and it's quite relevant to this Inner/Outer Canada thing, "Main Street", the Windsor-Quebec City corridor and the dysfunctional structure so systems in this 'federation':
Federation of Canadian Municipalities (FCM)
Bridging the Innovation Gap:
Count Cities In
August 2002
PDF. Unless you want it opening in your (whomever, if anyone is still awake) browser, right click on the link and Save Link/Target As... or whatever wording your browser uses to download it to your "I hate Ontario and Quebec" folder (or I hate Toronto and/or Montreal inside the provinces). Adobe Acrobat <--link is required to read PDFs and is free.
Or take my word for it and don't bother (whomever) finding out why Harper will do the best (inadvertent) favor this "federation" has ever had if "Ontario" is smart and votes "conservative" reform-alliance and Quebec is smart and sends in 75 Bloc MP's: start ripping this mess apart and fixing it. Not as Harper would like, he'll be out of a job with the rest of the freaks in Rideau Hall and on confederate mound. We've already got law firms bidding to buy out hopelessly worthless and quite expensive (more than the 'ad scam') office of the representative of the Prime Minister, claiming to be a rep of some Crown somewhere. If we're going to have a monarch then we get a castle and everyone gets to play worthless King or Queen for a day.
It's only 26 pages, including a page of the sources of information and some good links.
PDF: Bridging the Innovation Gap: Count Cities In
Census Metropolitan Area Populations, Growth Rates and Population Rank
Ontario
Québec
* «Main Street» : Windsor-Québec City corridor
14 of Canada's 27 CMA's
British Columbia
Alberta
Manitoba
Saskatchewan
Nova Scotia
Newfoundland and Labrador
New Brunswick
Prince Edward Island
Source: CMA listings/maps: http://www.statcan.ca/english/research/92F0138MIE/02001/cma2001.htm (PDFs)
CMA populations: PDF Metropolitan Change and Related Political Behaviour in Canadian Metropolises, Jean-Pierre Collin and Mélanie Robertson, INRS-Urbanisation, Culture et Société Groupe de recherche sur l’innovation municipale (GRIM), Montréal, 29 juin 2004, via Statistics Canada, 2001 Census of "Canada" (which one?) which does not address the Québec City-Windsor corridor to say the very least. It's too real for Canadiana to deal with.
The table in the document just lists them from largest to smallest populations. I separated them into provinces after sticking a number beside them all to show where they are in order of population.
The FCM (and Statistics Canada; it's where they got it from) identifies "The Big Four" regions of the Canadas as:
The extended Golden Horseshoe
Montreal and adjacent region
Lower Mainland and South Vancouver Island
Calgary-Edmonton corridor
The Calgary-Edmonton "corridor" had less than the population of the "municipality" of Toronto alone in 2001 and it's not gaining in real population on the real Toronto; because it has no population and percentages mean nothing in this mess. Between Toronto and Montréal it will be, already is (but will be much more clear) a fair game: not that city-regions (to-be city-states in a proper republic of close enough to republics) compete with one another other than around marketing for sporting events, tourism and such: businesses compete with one another and globally. Montréal is oriented to the U.S., given that it's where all the money/markets are, Toronto is oriented to the U.S. for the same reason and there is no singular "U.S." either; just city-regions (economic regions) and the head offices and other assets/connections in them; globally. The rest of the Canadas, other than the Vancouver region, hasn't come anywhere close to figuring that out yet. They will in 100 years or so; less in another economic union, which will make investing in them, but still around primary industries to plunder (up to them, always has been, always will be to use their brains and figure out what century it is and what's going on in this century as of now; not yesterday, let alone in pre-history, before the "U.S." (economic regions that matter) - Windsor-Quebec City corridor free trade agreement. They'll either figure "globalization" and knowledge-based economies out or they won't -- and it's not up to us to pay one cent more for them to demonstrate oh so clearly that they haven't the faintest clue where to begin; ever since "cyberspace" showed up a whole 10 years ago and they started to figure out which century this is and what has taken place over the last 100 years and how far behind they are).
The only mention of the Windsor-Quebec City corridor in a Google search is by far the most hits when looking for information: the air pollution levels are the highest in the country. I can't imagine why. And transportation/communications, due to what goes on in this region, are the most developed in the Canadas. And we pay to develop and maintain them ourselves, while also paying the debts, expenses, handouts to the Outer Canadas.
The only CMA that makes no sense at all as part of Main Street is the Greater Sudbury area. So cut 155,601 from the 10,706,513 people in the Ontario section (in 2001; it's quite a lot higher now). Everything else is in the south and on or close enough to the 401/QEW and other 400-series highways in the "Ontario" section.
Metropolitan Change and Related Political Behaviour
in Canadian Metropolises
Paper presented to
International Metropolitan Observatory Meeting
Bordeaux, January 9-10, 2004
Paper presented to
International Metropolitan Observatory Meeting
Bordeaux, January 9-10, 2004
Jean-Pierre Collin and Mélanie Robertson
INRS-Urbanisation, Culture et Société
Groupe de recherche sur l’innovation municipale (GRIM)
Montréal, 23 décembre 2003
PDF http://www.vrm.ca/documents/IMO_Collin_Robertson.pdf
I could go on (copying/pasting isn't difficult and I type 120 WPM; sorry about that) forever. And would have to, to get all of the facts out. Nothing really likes to discuss this Windsor-Quebec City corridor/Inner Canada (seems to be a label invented by Alberta)/Main Street thing because it shows an impassable chasm, two completely different countries (and two more within Main Street; but at least they're economically compatible) that can't have one central bank/fiscal policy/exchange rate. No matter what the Bank of Canada does, it's going to screw most of the Inner Canadas or most of the Outer Canadas or usually both.
When statistics come out of "Canada" they really come from the Windsor-Quebec City corridor because it has the majority of the population (and economy) of the country.
And now anyone from the Outer Canadas is annoyed but I stick to economic and not even demographic stats and information because it just is: it's nothing personal.
The Brits (of Yore, no need to bother wasting our time/money/energy with it today; we have far more important and urgent matters to attend to; like getting reality out via mass marketing so that both "you" and "we" as "us" know that absolutely nothing can stop us, united -- properly) "royally" screwed up, and if "The Lord" Durham (Durham, John George Lambton, 1st earl of) had had the foresight of the EU in 1837 to turn Lower Canada (nothing close to present-day Québec) into a republic with its own government, Upper Canada (Ontario) into the same with its own government, in an economic union with a common and sane union constitution, instead of forcing them together again as Canada West and Canada East, well, who knows or cares what would have happened yesterday let alone 170 years ago.
It was insane for Britannia to think that it could turn colonists from Flanders into British subjects: period. They haven't exactly gotten along well in their histories of killing each other at every opportunity and were at the end of another war with each other when the Brits took out the French on the Plains of Abraham; in less than 24 hours as a little side affair to the Seven Years War, which led to the Treaty of Paris, 1763, which gave Great Britain all of France’s mainland North American territory, save for Guadeloupe and the two islands off Newfoundland.
I have no problem with Quebec getting self-government, finally. I just think that everything else should get the same, to undo this British mess, with no offense to today's Britain: but it's really like some Monty Python skit gone afoul. Quebec has made as much of its culture as the Americans have of theirs, despite all of it. As Bud Estey said regarding Quebec and secession, before the Clarity Act, 2000 made it impossible (unless the Windsor-Quebec City corridor get their heads on straight and team up; nothing can stop the real Canada from reforming the real Canada):
You brought up so many issues (as statements), s_lone, and are so wrong that it requires books to address what you (seem to; I can't tell from one publication) think the truth is.
Economics, in a broad meaning, economic snapshots of various types are just the end-result of all marketing; political, commercial (includes the "newz media" selling stories to their target markets to sell ad space for as much money as possible), religious, word-of-mouth. It's nothing personal and Quebec has nothing to be embarrassed about or apologize for around economics, so I don't understand what seems to be your annoyance, as though we should throw our trump cards out and focus on cultural issues that have accomplished nothing for Quebec other than, particularly in the 1960's, an exodus of human capital and business mainly to the Toronto area.
The cultural issue has to be in there but as the main event, it won't fly - legally. The Clarity Act has to be bypassed and the only way to do that is to get the Ontario end of the Windsor-Quebec City corridor, which Toronto has been at (going slow; there's too much to digest) only for three years and it's difficult to mass market to so many people (in relation to the rest of the Canadas) that they've been totally hosed by this "federation" even over the last decade is good enough, let alone going back to "confederation."
I just think it's presumptous to assume that Quebec is a singular entity that will make its own choices. It doesn't have that option. If South Ontario says it does, then it does. If not, Quebec is in for a world of pain, will accomplish nothing more than destabilizing its economy, again, sending more human capital and businesses to South Ontario or even the Calgary-Edmonton corridor or Lower Mainland-South Vancouver Island now.
GDP is total assets/income minus liabilities/expenses before taxes, across all industries (see North American Industry Classification System; NAICS) in whatever jurisdiction over whatever period of time. Say a fiscal year and Quebec. If debt hits GDP, it's like your credit card balances amounting to your total salary. With the interest you have no hope of paying the bills off and will have to declare bankruptcy unless you can increase your income. But Quebec would decrease its GDP by separating from Canada (best of luck), the exodus of human capital and businesses in the 60's would look like a joke. And its debt would be over double its GDP -- in US$ with a former GDP in Canadian dollars that would turn into the Quebee or whatever currency Quebec came up with, after setting up its central bank, economic/financial system, with no trade agreements and feel free to look it up: Quebec is worth about 20 cents on every Canadian dollar. By separating, its economy would be compared (by financial markets, along with its debt; if it could even find a creditor to finance it other than the IMF ... and if you know anything about the IMF, you'd wish you were back in Canada).
So Quebec ends up with a $400 billion or so debt (1991) in US$ and has a currency worth 20 cents Canadian at best. What happens after that? A garage sale happens after that, we buy everything out at garage sale prices off the IMF and Quebec turns into supply and loses all high value ("value added") jobs because it'd be worse than Mexico. It can't even grow citrus so couldn't be a banana republic. [It's a joke.]
It has nothing to do with culture. It has nothing to do with discrimination or anything but reality.
You don't know the history of your own province, which isn't one history. It's entangled with the history of Ontario. You know nothing about law, nothing about the Clarity Act, nothing about international law, nothing about Quebec's debts to this federation, namely South Ontario, and culture isn't going to cut it. Toronto can pull that and outdo Quebec or anything else with "uniqueness." Quebec, south, has no monopoly on being hated by this "federation" (other than by anyone with any economic sense in South Ontario and specifically Toronto) and Duceppe is defending Ontario in "the Commons" over the outrageous "fiscal imbalances" that the confederate feds impose on this jurisdiction, in all of its glorious obliviousness.
There comes a time. Every other jurisdiction in this mess bitches and moans, screams and cries for our tax revenues. And gets them. Lots of Canadians think that their taxes go into "funding" Quebec because of "say whatever you want about economics." It is mathematically impossible for anything but South Ontario, and specific parts of it, to have the revenues to fund Quebec. And it's not a problem for us, because Quebec actually makes money. It's a good investment and others look at totals around transfers and forget that they have no populations to speak of and that transfers from the confederate feds are paid out per capita. Quebec has a capita, it pays out the highest per capita taxes in the country and this is how it works out:
Equalization Entitlements in 2005-06 $ per person
(Per person is also called per capita; same thing, the total divided by the population of each province in this case, but the confederate Dept. of Finance (a.k.a. "Finance Canada") doesn't bother to list the population estimate(s) they're using, so either can I to make sure that they're not playing any more games than usual.)
Figures reflect increases resulting from the new framework on Equalization announced by the Prime Minister following the October 2004 First Ministers' Meeting). These figures incorporate the protection provided to provinces against declines in Equalization. These figures do not include the additional $150 million in Equalization announced in Budget 2004. [Or the 'Atlantic Accord' or 2.5% annual accelerator or plenty of other BS to buy votes at the expense of the Ontarios, as usual.]
Source: Department of Finance Canada - Equalization Program
Date modified (by source): 2005-04-04
Last modified/checked (by me): 2006-01-25
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And if you (whomever) kept the 2004-05 data then you can do this:
Equalization Entitlements – (2004-05, 2005-06) per person
Sorted by 2005-06 per person ($ millions)
Figures reflect increases resulting from the new framework on Equalization announced by the Prime Minister following the October 2004 First Ministers' Meeting). These figures incorporate the protection provided to provinces against declines in Equalization. These figures do not include the additional $150 million in Equalization announced in Budget 2004. [Or the 'Atlantic Accord' or 2.5% annual accelerator or plenty of other BS to buy votes at the expense of the Ontarios, as usual.]
Source: Not Long For This World Finance "Canada" - Equalization Program
Date modified (by source): 2005-04-04
Last updated/checked (by me): 2005-01-25
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But slap on the CHT/CST, which already "equalize" making "the equalization transfer" nothing but equalization on equalization and take a look at the graph at the source above showing Alberta's own-source revenues, about 40% higher than Ontario's, but it gets all of $1 less per capita back in the major transfers:
MAJOR (nowhere near all) "Federal" Transfers
2004-05 and 2005-06 sorted from the highest, per person, to the lowest for 2005-06
$ Per person for fiscal 2004-05 and 2005-06 / the percentage the amount is of total government revenues but for the previous fiscal year. Confused? Welcome to the Canadas.
* NL Up one position over NS from 2004-05
**SK up the highest of every jurisdiction in percentage of provincial revenues
Source: Department of Finance Canada - Federal Transfers to Provinces and Territories (scroll down for all jurisdictions)
Date modified (by source): 2005-03-31
Last checked/modified (by me): 2006-01-25
_____
It's certainly not the whole story. They're pittances of tax returns to Ontario, Quebec and B.C. Alberta is getting about 40% too much back (per capita, it's how they're all mindlessly not worked out to mean anything) or Ontario is getting back 40% too little because own-source "provincial"/territorial revenues are supposed to offset these things; just like welfare is offset when people get jobs and have "own source" revenues, but welfare makes a lot more sense than the mess of "transfer systems" doesn't.
Quebec opted out of the CHST, now split in two, CHT/CST (Canada Health Transfer, Canada Social Transfer). Who knows what either of them even are? Look them up and tell me; then tell me why Quebec is still getting CHT/CST transfers from the confederates on top of "equalization"; which is all included above (and more) and you can see that Quebec is way, way below the real leeches of the Canadas and what else but "gimme gimme and gimme MORE!" :?: Up, up, up. If any of it had ever worked, none of these transfers would even exist today, but they keep going up and up, way over the rate of inflation and the "equalization" welfare handout transfer has an automatic 2.5% accelerator (2.5% guaranteed increase per fiscal year) ... while the ones paying for it have no such guarantees of economic growth (so revenue growth) to pay for it.
The above can shut a lot of people up around "Quebec" and it's alleged "special treatment" around things that people have no frikken clue what they're talking about, and are too lazy to even Google anything to find out: because their hatred/excuses based on outright lies are all they have.
I've been looking around for a web site that has one, two, maybe three people who know something and can discuss economics and not even socio-economics because populations (markets) are stark enough along with a few other factors, between Inner/Outer Canada, which lead to political priorities. Ontario and Quebec are the only jurisdictions in the federation that pay for their own law enforcement from top to bottom, bottom to top. The President of the Treasury Board (Alcock, Manitoba) is also the head of the "Canadian" Wheat Board. It's not "Canadian." It only provides subsidies to farmers in the four western provinces, so why are provincial subsidies called federal/Canadian? Ditto with RCMP law enforcement. There are four branches: the "FBI" end, the "SS" end (bodyguards for politicians/foriegn dignitaries even if they bring their own as they always do, they have to coordinate with that end of the RCMP), the decorative units for the tourists, though I've never seen one, other than on postcards, and Toronto gets more tourists/visitors than any other city in the Canadas per year, and the Alberta Federal Police, B.C. Federal Police, Newfoundland&Labrador Federal Police and on and on for every jurisdiction but Ontario and Quebec.
Hardly a day goes by now in Toronto where some other expense we had no clue we were paying is exposed; to the rest of the Ontarios via the Ontario feds or the rest of the Canadas via the confederate feds.
The Western Canadas have the "conservative" reform-alliance, Quebec has the Bloc, Ontario has nothing. It just sits back and smiles, while others piss in its face. And as people are gradually finding out about it, the confederate feds, Ontario's alleged representative, tried to deny it but there is no denying that the amount of tax (whatever they happen to be called) revenues paid out by "Ontario" (south; with all of 7% of the population outside the CMA's listed above; minus Sudbury, a few subway trains of people), is higher than what the Ontario feds came out with, in per capita tax returns, not "funding" back to the Ontario feds, as compared the handouts (minus Quebec and sometimes Alberta ... it depends on the price of commodities) other provincial governments get per capita and out of our own taxes.
It's like having enough food to feed your family with but others coming along with less, so offering them some and they take more food than you have to feed to your own family with. And Quebec is not in that position. Only South Ontario is. But it's some crime to even talk about it. "Say whatever you want about economics but..." But what? Are we supposed to die and starve to death so that others can burn our money? It's been over a hundred years since the industrial era hit North America, hundreds of billions of dollars in today's terms have been handed out to every jurisdiction and only South Quebec has managed to make anything out of itself.
I called you what? Where? I tend to stick to economic snapshots, before they're used as marketing, and populations, without even getting into demographic groups let alone personal anything. I'm sorry if something I published (I think I've made all of two posts) came across as personal. I pulled some quotes out and responded to them, but it's nothing personal against the publishers. I have no clue who you even are.
s_lone said:
A bit late on the reply.
I'm sure everyone missed me, dearly, but there's no need to throw any parades. :shock:Say "whatever" about economics? Okay. Montreal has rubber wheels on its subways, more expensive to maintain but for less noise and a more comfortable ride. The TTC/Toronto Transit Commission has slashed and burned and fares are double what they are in Montreal for frequent users with monthly passes. It lost over a million people in ridership from 2001-2003 alone -- into cars to add to the gridlock and air pollution that kills over 5,000 Toronto residents a year and sends over 7,000 to emergency wards because they can't breathe. Including my wife who has to go to the hospital at least once a week to get the crap drained from her lungs from the air in this city. She's 35 not 80. She had mild asthma in Vancouver for 25 years. Her lungs were bleeding within a month after she moved to Toronto.
Toronto is selling off utility poles and street lights to try to make ends meet due to $12.6 billion disappearing from the City of Toronto proper, no GTA or municipal area, last year alone. And both the Ontario and confederate feds download their own expenses onto Toronto city hall. There's nothing left to sell off in this city due to tax pillaging (revenues collected and never seen again -- not here, they're easily seen all over the Ontarios and Canadas). The city could try to sell public schools off, has already sold off former school property and cut everything else to the bone, but most of them should have been condemned a decade ago and haven't seen a cent since. Nothing would buy them. Every province in the Canadas gets more money back per capita, from the feds, out of Ontario's taxes, than Ontario gets back itself per capita.
Ontario has a $23-billion fiscal "gap" ("imbalance"/scam by the confederate feds) in what its businesses and citizens pay out in federal taxes and what it got back in all confederate expenditures to Ontario, last year alone, based on the per capita average that the other 9 provinces got back from the confederate feds per capita out of our taxes ("revenues" due to taxes that are called "premiums" and "plans" and such). The government of Newfoundland&Labrador gets over $2,000 more, per capita, from our revenues, to spend on its budgets/citizens, than the Ontario government gets to keep per capita out of our own revenues.
60% of newcomers to the Canadas decide to settle in pretty much the Toronto area: 40% (averages) in the municipality of Toronto proper.
Quebec gets over $3,000 from the confederate feds per new immigrant, refugee (if it takes any with its "special" immigration laws) and even migrant. Ontario gets $500 per newcomer, as always, a pittance of its own taxes back. Every province gets more per capita around absolutely everything than Ontario gets back out of its own taxes, every year. And it gets worse every year, not better.
Ontario is the one and only jurisdiction that has always paid more into this "federation" than it's taken out of it. It doesn't owe one cent of the federal debt but pays 50% of the costs of servicing it, so the President of the confederate Treasury Board says, not that he'd know, along with numbers I couldn't even keep up with because I didn't have a tape in the machine and he was rattling them off one after the other. And he's from Manitoba, not Ontario. He just wasn't in Manitoba, he was in Toronto on a local news program.
During the 2004 "equalization" (Ontario is the one and only province that has never collected equalization and of course not: someone has to pay for it all and it'd be rather difficult to pay more into the "federation" every year while collecting "equalization" from what in this country? Nothing could hope to "fund" Toronto let alone Ontario) welfare handout renewal, Reg Alcock, President of the confederate Treasury Board, got a lot of exercise.
Every jurisdiction but Ontario was bitching for more more, gimme gimme in handouts, Alcock stood up, "Ontario simply cannot afford more" and sat down. Next "question" gimmme gimmme, more more, Alcock stood up again, "Ontario simply cannot afford more" and sat down and might as well have just stuck the answer on a sign in his chair and left. Never once did he say "Quebec simply cannot afford more" or "British Columbia simply cannot afford more" or "Alberta simply cannot afford more." Just Ontario; and with good reason:
Real gross domestic product, expenditure-based, by province and territory
millions of chained (1997) dollars
Code:
__________________________________________
JURISDICTION 2004 % of GDP
__________________________________________
Ontario 470,026 42.02
Québec 234,445 20.96
British Columbia 139,205 12.45
Alberta 135,837 12.14
Manitoba 35,136 3.14
Saskatchewan 33,168 2.97
Nova Scotia 25,271 2.26
New Brunswick 20,867 1.87
Newfoundland & Labrador 15,248 1.36
Northwest Territories 3,833 0.34
Prince Edward Island 3,365 0.30
Yukon Territory 1,206 0.11
Nunavat Territory 862 0.08
__________________________________________
TOTAL 1,118,474 100.00
__________________________________________
SUMMARY 2004 % of GDP
__________________________________________
(ON+QC) Total 704,471 62.99
(ON+QC+BC) Total 843,676 75.43
Rest - (ON+QC) Total 414,003 37.01
Rest - (ON+QC+BC) Total 274,798 24.57
Prairie (AB+SK+MB) Totals 204,141 18.25
(SK+MB) Total ^ to AB 68,304 6.11
Atlantic Canadas Total 68,589 6.13
Territories 5,906 0.53
__________________________________________Source: Statistics Canada
Date modified (by source): 2006-01-05
Last updated/checked (by me): 2006-01-12
______
Ontarians don't even know what "equalization" is. Can't afford more? Who ever consulted the Ontario legislature or taxpayers to ask if they could afford to pay out one cent in "equalization" in the first place, let alone explaining it to everyone given that we've never received it so have no clue that it even EXISTS: Penizalize economic success to reward failure with zero accountability, less than zero common sense and disastrous results that speak for themselves just with "provincial" populations (lack of markets; other than in the Windsor-Quebec City<->Québec City Windsor corridor) and GDPs.
It doesn't take a degree in economics to see that there is nothing out there but more and more expenses for the successful economic regions of the Québec City-Windsor<->Windsor Quebec City corridor (and the Lower Mainland-south Vancouver Island, but there is no such thing as "federal recipts" from B.C.; everything gets transfer payments from the confederates, namely the Canada Health Transfer (CHT) and Canada Social Transfer (CST) so it's never a matter of what is paid out, but what is paid out to the confederate feds and is not received back; and per capita around all of it because it's how the disastrous mess of "tranfers payments" work; blindly, not by need, not by real expenses but "per person" in gigantic things like the Ontarios and Québecs, BCs and Albertas.
All federal disbursements received by whatever jurisdiction's ("province" or territory) dept. of finance have to be subtracted from all federal receipts from the jurisdition then divided by the Apri 1 (end of fiscal year) population estimates for every "province" and territory to even begin to figure out what is truly paying out what -- due to all of the returns of revenues -- which is where the Ontarios get completely ripped off.
It's never worked and it never will. I'd rather send the money to Mexico to develop its markets. At least it has a population. Equalization was "formalized" in 1957 with rules that Alberta broke immediately, getting equalization welfare handouts from South Ontario taxpayers while 0% of the oil and natural gas revenues were taxed or even taken into account as income for the Alberta government to spend. It went on for seven years. The rule is generous enough around natural resources. Only 75% of the 100% of provincial revenues generated from natural resources are counted as income to be applied to equalization welfare handouts.
It's exactly how equalization is supposed to work -- as welfare but for provinces that fall below the national average per capita provincial revenues. It doesn't work like that, it's been corrupted with side-deals to buy votes beyond belief and not particuarly around Québec -- much more particularly around the Atlantic Canadas, Manitoba and Saskatchewan.
Try that on real welfare, claiming that only 75% of your income should be deducted from your welfare check because you worked around natural resources, landscaping or something. Or try claiming that ZERO per cent of your income matters, as Alberta did from 1957 to 1964, while its provincial dept of finance raked in billions of dollars hand over fist in oil/gas royalties -- which Nova Scotia and Newfoundland have cited over and over again as their reason that 0% of the royalties and revenues their departments of finance get from our (federal jurisdiction and they would not have offshore rigs but not for the billions of dollars handed to them by the usual; the Québec City-Windsor corridor -- the economic regions in it that cause the transportation/communications corridors to exist in the first place).
It's all "equalization" is -- welfare. If someone makes $500 in a month with some temporary work, best of luck (in Ontario anyway) trying to claim that you were working around natural resources so only 75% of your real income should be deducted from your handout -- let alone 0% being deducted. And it's exactly what Newfoundland&Labrador and Nova Scotia cite around doing the same thing, because it's exactly what Alberta did.
It should never have been allowed to happen around Alberta in the first place but it set a precedent and now every jurisdiction (except Ontario of course) wants to keeep all provincial revenues generated by any natural resources (people are natural resources -- and they cost money after they stop generating revenues; in healthcare, possibly social services, pensions; no spent and abandoned mine/quarry or anything else around primary industries, empty fields, etc., end up costing us anything when they stop producing -- only people do and people are certainly natural resources) to be tax-free and with 0% of the (provincial government's) income applied against their welfare handouts paid for almost entirely by 'Ontario' (south) taxpayers.
But it goes on in the Ontarios as well. If the Ontario section of the Windsor-Quebec City corridor (Inner Canada, "Main Street") split into South Ontario, the rest, the mass bulk of the Ontarios, would be on equalization overnight and we could either pay for their law enforcement and healthcare and other handouts through the Ontario feds as it's done now, or via the confederate feds; with more expenses.
They'd have to move in RCMP law enforcement and then we'd have to pay the confederate feds for that, their healthcare and at a different rate per capita (higher) than South Ontario got, social services, post-secondary educations, they'd pay less into E.I. and get more as the Atlantic Canadas, Manitoba and Saskatchewan do, and South Ontario would have to pay for it all.
So the only solution is to get South Ontario out of this 'federation." Everything in the country hates it anyway and should throw parades when we invite the Quebec portion of the Windsor-Quebec City corridor (as we define it, not how the confederate feds define it -- no supply, just what's needed for the PRODUCTION of high value goods and services via tolerance, open-mindedness, quality of life, cooperation; because it is in our interests. We're stuck with what's south of and on the 401/Autoroute 20 and north in a few areas, like Ottawa-Hull/Gatineau and out/south from Quebec City to maintain jurisdicton over the St. Lawrence, and join us in an economic union.
Then more parades would be thrown in the Outer Canadas over hated "Quebec" being out of their hair. Then the Vancouver area, Lower Mainland-south Vancouver Island, also tolerant, open-minded, inclusive, etc., because it's necessary around diverse economies/markets for maximum innovation/productivity and we three can take on the world. The rest can keep producing this crap:
Gross domestic product at basic prices primary industries
$ constant 1997 (millions) 2004
Code:
____________________________________________________________
% of
INDUSTRY 2004-05 All
____________________________________________________________
Agriculture forestry fishing and hunting
Crop production 9,998 0.95
Animal production 4,215 0.40
Forestry and logging 6,880 0.66
Fishing hunting and trapping 866 0.08
Support activities for agriculture
and forestry 1,242 0.12
Agriculture forestry fishing and hunting TOTAL 23,201 2.21
____________________________________________________________
Mining and oil and gas extraction
Oil and gas extraction 22,817 2.18
Mining (except oil and gas)
Coal mining 1,208 0.12
Metal ore mining 4,608 0.44
Non-metallic mineral mining and quarrying 4,730 0.45
Support activities for mining
and oil and gas extraction 5,336 0.51
___________________________________________________________
Mining (except oil and gas) TOTAL 10,546 1.01
____________________________________________________________
Mining and oil and gas extraction TOTAL 38,699 3.69
____________________________________________________________
PRIMARY INDUSTRY TOTAL (ALL) 61,900 5.90
____________________________________________________________
All industries TOTAL 1,048,266 100.00
_________________________________________________________________
A whole 5.9% of the total economic output; without subtracting subsidies and other confederate "expenditures". It's night and day and we are not economically or socio-economically/demographically compatible with the rest of the Canadas, but we are with each other -- once the mess "Great" Britain created is undone and you, we, us, our economies, over 70% of the economic output of the Canadas with the Lower Mainland-south Vancouver Island in "our" economic union, with a total re-write on a new union constitution that provides all of the benefits of being a republic without actually having to do it.
Windsor-Quebec City Corridor, 2001
Ontario Section
10,706,513 93% of Ontario's population
Quebec Section
6,327,354 87% of Quebec's population
Total Population
17,033,867 57% of Canada's population
Source: Statistics Canada 2001 Census
With separate governments and no need for any federal goverment, just union services we decide to keep in common instead of duplicating, like the Bank of Canada/currency, fiscal policies that would actually make sense to us and our investors for a change and much more stable dollar, no fake monarch, new curency has to be minted/printed, no royal or religious/ministerial titles allowed in government anything, "equal representation" is moot. You've got your government, we've got ours. We can create a new union constitution along with the economic charter for the rules of the economic union/trade, and whatever we agree upon goes into the union constitution, with a sane anemnding formula and things we don't agree upon go in our republic constitutions.
We're the only real trading partners in the Canadas, "Main Street," the above and the Greater Sudbury Area is included in it by the confederate feds but won't be included in it by us. It's supply and we want to pay less for supply and so does the U.S.
It makes economic sense, it makes socio-economic sense (rural Quebec outside the Quebec section of "Main Street" has been polled many times and they identify more with what they call "Western Canada"; the vast portion of Ontario outside "Main Street"; not the south and certainly not Toronto or Montréal, which is what they see "the south" as: mainly because it's true). The rest of the Québecs and Ontarios would be far happier with their own governments/representatives dealing with their issues; not the issues of the Québec City-Windsor corridor: and vice versa as long as the Québec section/"republic" runs its own show around everything we don't need centralized union services for, which includes most of them, and ditto with the Ontario section. The Lower Mainland-south Vancouver Island isn't going to sit out with the rest of the Outer Canadas with their economies based almost entirely on the export of raw/semi-processed volatile commodities and will be a piece of cake to get into our economic union.
Of course we need supply but we import it from all over the world. Quebec has no bauxite, for example, but is the world's third largest producer of aluminum. Instead of exporting natural resources (and the jobs and spin-off jobs, expanded markets/economies/revenues bases) that go along with not just pawning off raw commodities, it imports bauxite from Australia, Guinea, Jamaica and Brazil. Aluminum isn't a manufactured product (as is) but it's worth more than bauxite is. Buy low, sell high and create jobs/new markets, etc. in the process instead of what the rest of the Outer Canadas does for the most part: export commodities (and the jobs, new markets, etc.) to wherever, mainly the U.S., then import finished goods for a lot more than the commodities were sold for: sell low, buy high. It's why they have such puny economies with no markets to speak of.
We don't pay Australia's state or federal debts, bills, provide their governments with handouts, supply their law enforcement and even TV/radio stations and they certainly don't get representation in our governments just because we happen to import supply from them. It's no different for the Outer Canadas.
And it doesn't mean that South Quebec (or South Ontario) give up jurisdiction over their current borders (which is all of the Canadas). We'll be able to subsidize our own farmers by four to five times what they get now - to bring them up to the level of American farm subsidies. We'll still have to pay for their law enforcement, healthcare, infrastructure period. But we make sure we keep enough of our own revenues to keep our economies expanding in the south where it's a no-brainer. And the Quebec portion of the Windsor-Quebec City corridor/Inner Canada/Main Street, will be a hell of a lot better off in an economic union with the Ontario portion as opposed to getting its share of the federal debt dumped on it, having to buy out all the land in Quebec, other than in the south, exactly where it needs it, it's got land deeds for that. But nothing to the north and it'd have to buy out Indian Country.
I'm on Quebec's side, Montréal's side, and specifically the head offices in it and economics of the Windsor-Montreal corridor from this end. Québec City is a satellite of Montréal, much as Ottawa is of Toronto; on the business level. The political structural and systems levels of the Ontario and confederate feds are less than worthless garbage. Political systems don't function and can't function when the structure makes no sense at all, regardless of any systemic changes.
We cannot maintain an economic union with the Outer Canadas. We can't use the same central bank/fiscal policies/exchange rate. Their economies are based on volatile commodities. Our economies are knowledge-based, rely upon R&D to develop high value services, primarily, and high value specialty manufactured goods; not commodities/supply. We have the markets, which is called demand not supply. "Ontario" ... keeping the 2001 population numbers in mind, and I'll show you the metropolitan areas that make up what the feds think is the Ontario section of the Windsor-Quebec City corridor, which just means cutting out Sudbury, it's way the hell up north and is supply, is, well, you do know that the U.S. and "Canada" are the largest bilateral economic trading partners in the history of the planet? "Ontario" is the U.S.'s 2nd largest trading partner on the planet; in commerce, not bulk or tonnages of commodities at $40/weight or volume. As in 2nd behind only the other other 9 provinces and three territories of the Canadas.
And if the Quebec section of the Windsor-Quebec City is pulled from the equasion, we are the U.S.'s largest economic trading partners on the planet. Some 37 states sell more to us (markets and with money to spend) than to any other state in the U.S. or the entire EU and Japan combined and all kinds of crazy combinations.
One more time:
Windsor-Quebec City Corridor, 2001
Ontario Section
10,706,513 93% of Ontario's population
Quebec Section
6,327,354 87% of Quebec's population
Total Population
17,033,867 57% of Canada's population
Source: Statistics Canada 2001 Census
Now do you know what census metropolitan areas (CMAs) are? I don't either as far as figuring them out (has to have a population of 100,000 or more in the Canadas); but every country has them around cities. 100,000 people is a town as far as I'm concerned but I don't make up the rules. These are the CMAs of the Canadas as defined for the 2001 census and it's quite relevant to this Inner/Outer Canada thing, "Main Street", the Windsor-Quebec City corridor and the dysfunctional structure so systems in this 'federation':
Federation of Canadian Municipalities (FCM)
Bridging the Innovation Gap:
Count Cities In
August 2002
PDF. Unless you want it opening in your (whomever, if anyone is still awake
) browser, right click on the link and Save Link/Target As... or whatever wording your browser uses to download it to your "I hate Ontario and Quebec" folder (or I hate Toronto and/or Montreal inside the provinces). Adobe Acrobat <--link is required to read PDFs and is free.Or take my word for it and don't bother (whomever) finding out why Harper will do the best (inadvertent) favor this "federation" has ever had if "Ontario" is smart and votes "conservative" reform-alliance and Quebec is smart and sends in 75 Bloc MP's: start ripping this mess apart and fixing it. Not as Harper would like, he'll be out of a job with the rest of the freaks in Rideau Hall and on confederate mound. We've already got law firms bidding to buy out hopelessly worthless and quite expensive (more than the 'ad scam') office of the representative of the Prime Minister, claiming to be a rep of some Crown somewhere. If we're going to have a monarch then we get a castle and everyone gets to play worthless King or Queen for a day.
It's only 26 pages, including a page of the sources of information and some good links.
PDF: Bridging the Innovation Gap: Count Cities In
Census Metropolitan Area Populations, Growth Rates and Population Rank
Ontario
Code:
__________________________________________________________
CMA 2001 1996 %Change Rank
__________________________________________________________
Toronto *............. 4,682,897 4,263,759 9.8 1
Ottawa-Hull * (ON/QC). 1,063,664 998,718 6.5 4
Hamilton *............ 662,401 624,360 6.1 9
London *.............. 432,451 416,546 3.8 10
Kitchener *........... 414,284 382,940 8.2 11
St. Catharines-Niagara* 377,009 372,406 1.2 12
Windsor *............. 307,877 286,811 7.3 15
Oshawa *.............. 296,298 268,773 10.2 16
Greater Sudbury *..... 155,601 165,618 –6.0 20
Kingston *............ 146,838 144,528 1.6 24
Thunder Bay .......... 121,986 126,643 –3.7 27
__________________________________________________________Québec
Code:
__________________________________________________________
CMA 2001 1996 %Change Rank
__________________________________________________________
Montréal *............ 3,426,350 3,326,447 3.0 2
Québec City *......... 682,757 671,889 1.6 7
Chicoutimi-Jonquière . 154,938 160,454 –3.4 21
Sherbrooke *.......... 153,811 149,569 2.8 22
Trois-Rivières *...... 137,507 139,956 –1.7 25
__________________________________________________________14 of Canada's 27 CMA's
British Columbia
Code:
__________________________________________________________
CMA 2001 1996 %Change Rank
__________________________________________________________
Vancouver ............ 1,986,965 1,831,665 8.5 3
Victoria ............. 311,902 304,287 2.5 14
Abbotsford ........... 147,370 136,480 8.0 23
__________________________________________________________Alberta
Code:
__________________________________________________________
CMA 2001 1996 %Change Rank
__________________________________________________________
Calgary .............. 951,395 821,628 15.8 5
Edmonton ............. 937,845 862,597 8.7 6
__________________________________________________________Manitoba
Code:
__________________________________________________________
CMA 2001 1996 %Change Rank
__________________________________________________________
Winnipeg ............. 671,274 667,093 0.6 8
__________________________________________________________Saskatchewan
Code:
__________________________________________________________
CMA 2001 1996 %Change Rank
Saskatoon ............ 225,927 219,056 3.1 17
Regina ............... 192,800 193,652 –0.4 18
__________________________________________________________Nova Scotia
Code:
__________________________________________________________
CMA 2001 1996 %Change Rank
__________________________________________________________
Halifax .............. 359,183 342,966 4.7 13
__________________________________________________________Newfoundland and Labrador
Code:
__________________________________________________________
CMA 2001 1996 %Change Rank
__________________________________________________________
St. John's ........... 172,918 174,051 –0.7 19
__________________________________________________________New Brunswick
Code:
__________________________________________________________
CMA 2001 1996 %Change Rank
__________________________________________________________
Saint John ........... 122,678 125,705 –2.4 26
__________________________________________________________Prince Edward Island
Code:
None
__________________________________________________________CMA populations: PDF Metropolitan Change and Related Political Behaviour in Canadian Metropolises, Jean-Pierre Collin and Mélanie Robertson, INRS-Urbanisation, Culture et Société Groupe de recherche sur l’innovation municipale (GRIM), Montréal, 29 juin 2004, via Statistics Canada, 2001 Census of "Canada" (which one?) which does not address the Québec City-Windsor corridor to say the very least. It's too real for Canadiana to deal with.
The table in the document just lists them from largest to smallest populations. I separated them into provinces after sticking a number beside them all to show where they are in order of population.
The FCM (and Statistics Canada; it's where they got it from) identifies "The Big Four" regions of the Canadas as:
The extended Golden Horseshoe
Montreal and adjacent region
Lower Mainland and South Vancouver Island
Calgary-Edmonton corridor
The Calgary-Edmonton "corridor" had less than the population of the "municipality" of Toronto alone in 2001 and it's not gaining in real population on the real Toronto; because it has no population and percentages mean nothing in this mess. Between Toronto and Montréal it will be, already is (but will be much more clear) a fair game: not that city-regions (to-be city-states in a proper republic of close enough to republics) compete with one another other than around marketing for sporting events, tourism and such: businesses compete with one another and globally. Montréal is oriented to the U.S., given that it's where all the money/markets are, Toronto is oriented to the U.S. for the same reason and there is no singular "U.S." either; just city-regions (economic regions) and the head offices and other assets/connections in them; globally. The rest of the Canadas, other than the Vancouver region, hasn't come anywhere close to figuring that out yet. They will in 100 years or so; less in another economic union, which will make investing in them, but still around primary industries to plunder (up to them, always has been, always will be to use their brains and figure out what century it is and what's going on in this century as of now; not yesterday, let alone in pre-history, before the "U.S." (economic regions that matter) - Windsor-Quebec City corridor free trade agreement. They'll either figure "globalization" and knowledge-based economies out or they won't -- and it's not up to us to pay one cent more for them to demonstrate oh so clearly that they haven't the faintest clue where to begin; ever since "cyberspace" showed up a whole 10 years ago and they started to figure out which century this is and what has taken place over the last 100 years and how far behind they are).
The only mention of the Windsor-Quebec City corridor in a Google search is by far the most hits when looking for information: the air pollution levels are the highest in the country. I can't imagine why. And transportation/communications, due to what goes on in this region, are the most developed in the Canadas. And we pay to develop and maintain them ourselves, while also paying the debts, expenses, handouts to the Outer Canadas.
The only CMA that makes no sense at all as part of Main Street is the Greater Sudbury area. So cut 155,601 from the 10,706,513 people in the Ontario section (in 2001; it's quite a lot higher now). Everything else is in the south and on or close enough to the 401/QEW and other 400-series highways in the "Ontario" section.
Metropolitan Change and Related Political Behaviour
in Canadian Metropolises
Paper presented to
International Metropolitan Observatory Meeting
Bordeaux, January 9-10, 2004
Paper presented to
International Metropolitan Observatory Meeting
Bordeaux, January 9-10, 2004
Jean-Pierre Collin and Mélanie Robertson
INRS-Urbanisation, Culture et Société
Groupe de recherche sur l’innovation municipale (GRIM)
Montréal, 23 décembre 2003
PDF http://www.vrm.ca/documents/IMO_Collin_Robertson.pdf
I could go on (copying/pasting isn't difficult and I type 120 WPM; sorry about that) forever. And would have to, to get all of the facts out. Nothing really likes to discuss this Windsor-Quebec City corridor/Inner Canada (seems to be a label invented by Alberta)/Main Street thing because it shows an impassable chasm, two completely different countries (and two more within Main Street; but at least they're economically compatible) that can't have one central bank/fiscal policy/exchange rate. No matter what the Bank of Canada does, it's going to screw most of the Inner Canadas or most of the Outer Canadas or usually both.
When statistics come out of "Canada" they really come from the Windsor-Quebec City corridor because it has the majority of the population (and economy) of the country.
And now anyone from the Outer Canadas is annoyed but I stick to economic and not even demographic stats and information because it just is: it's nothing personal.
The Brits (of Yore, no need to bother wasting our time/money/energy with it today; we have far more important and urgent matters to attend to; like getting reality out via mass marketing so that both "you" and "we" as "us" know that absolutely nothing can stop us, united -- properly) "royally" screwed up, and if "The Lord" Durham (Durham, John George Lambton, 1st earl of) had had the foresight of the EU in 1837 to turn Lower Canada (nothing close to present-day Québec) into a republic with its own government, Upper Canada (Ontario) into the same with its own government, in an economic union with a common and sane union constitution, instead of forcing them together again as Canada West and Canada East, well, who knows or cares what would have happened yesterday let alone 170 years ago.
It was insane for Britannia to think that it could turn colonists from Flanders into British subjects: period. They haven't exactly gotten along well in their histories of killing each other at every opportunity and were at the end of another war with each other when the Brits took out the French on the Plains of Abraham; in less than 24 hours as a little side affair to the Seven Years War, which led to the Treaty of Paris, 1763, which gave Great Britain all of France’s mainland North American territory, save for Guadeloupe and the two islands off Newfoundland.
I have no problem with Quebec getting self-government, finally. I just think that everything else should get the same, to undo this British mess, with no offense to today's Britain: but it's really like some Monty Python skit gone afoul. Quebec has made as much of its culture as the Americans have of theirs, despite all of it. As Bud Estey said regarding Quebec and secession, before the Clarity Act, 2000 made it impossible (unless the Windsor-Quebec City corridor get their heads on straight and team up; nothing can stop the real Canada from reforming the real Canada):
You brought up so many issues (as statements), s_lone, and are so wrong that it requires books to address what you (seem to; I can't tell from one publication) think the truth is.
Economics, in a broad meaning, economic snapshots of various types are just the end-result of all marketing; political, commercial (includes the "newz media" selling stories to their target markets to sell ad space for as much money as possible), religious, word-of-mouth. It's nothing personal and Quebec has nothing to be embarrassed about or apologize for around economics, so I don't understand what seems to be your annoyance, as though we should throw our trump cards out and focus on cultural issues that have accomplished nothing for Quebec other than, particularly in the 1960's, an exodus of human capital and business mainly to the Toronto area.
The cultural issue has to be in there but as the main event, it won't fly - legally. The Clarity Act has to be bypassed and the only way to do that is to get the Ontario end of the Windsor-Quebec City corridor, which Toronto has been at (going slow; there's too much to digest) only for three years and it's difficult to mass market to so many people (in relation to the rest of the Canadas) that they've been totally hosed by this "federation" even over the last decade is good enough, let alone going back to "confederation."
I just think it's presumptous to assume that Quebec is a singular entity that will make its own choices. It doesn't have that option. If South Ontario says it does, then it does. If not, Quebec is in for a world of pain, will accomplish nothing more than destabilizing its economy, again, sending more human capital and businesses to South Ontario or even the Calgary-Edmonton corridor or Lower Mainland-South Vancouver Island now.
GDP is total assets/income minus liabilities/expenses before taxes, across all industries (see North American Industry Classification System; NAICS) in whatever jurisdiction over whatever period of time. Say a fiscal year and Quebec. If debt hits GDP, it's like your credit card balances amounting to your total salary. With the interest you have no hope of paying the bills off and will have to declare bankruptcy unless you can increase your income. But Quebec would decrease its GDP by separating from Canada (best of luck), the exodus of human capital and businesses in the 60's would look like a joke. And its debt would be over double its GDP -- in US$ with a former GDP in Canadian dollars that would turn into the Quebee or whatever currency Quebec came up with, after setting up its central bank, economic/financial system, with no trade agreements and feel free to look it up: Quebec is worth about 20 cents on every Canadian dollar. By separating, its economy would be compared (by financial markets, along with its debt; if it could even find a creditor to finance it other than the IMF ... and if you know anything about the IMF, you'd wish you were back in Canada).
So Quebec ends up with a $400 billion or so debt (1991) in US$ and has a currency worth 20 cents Canadian at best. What happens after that? A garage sale happens after that, we buy everything out at garage sale prices off the IMF and Quebec turns into supply and loses all high value ("value added") jobs because it'd be worse than Mexico. It can't even grow citrus so couldn't be a banana republic. [It's a joke.]
It has nothing to do with culture. It has nothing to do with discrimination or anything but reality.
You don't know the history of your own province, which isn't one history. It's entangled with the history of Ontario. You know nothing about law, nothing about the Clarity Act, nothing about international law, nothing about Quebec's debts to this federation, namely South Ontario, and culture isn't going to cut it. Toronto can pull that and outdo Quebec or anything else with "uniqueness." Quebec, south, has no monopoly on being hated by this "federation" (other than by anyone with any economic sense in South Ontario and specifically Toronto) and Duceppe is defending Ontario in "the Commons" over the outrageous "fiscal imbalances" that the confederate feds impose on this jurisdiction, in all of its glorious obliviousness.
There comes a time. Every other jurisdiction in this mess bitches and moans, screams and cries for our tax revenues. And gets them. Lots of Canadians think that their taxes go into "funding" Quebec because of "say whatever you want about economics." It is mathematically impossible for anything but South Ontario, and specific parts of it, to have the revenues to fund Quebec. And it's not a problem for us, because Quebec actually makes money. It's a good investment and others look at totals around transfers and forget that they have no populations to speak of and that transfers from the confederate feds are paid out per capita. Quebec has a capita, it pays out the highest per capita taxes in the country and this is how it works out:
Equalization Entitlements in 2005-06 $ per person
(Per person is also called per capita; same thing, the total divided by the population of each province in this case, but the confederate Dept. of Finance (a.k.a. "Finance Canada") doesn't bother to list the population estimate(s) they're using, so either can I to make sure that they're not playing any more games than usual.)
Code:
_______________________________________
2005-06 % of
Province $ each Total
_______________________________________
Prince Edward Island 1,996 21.93
New Brunswick 1,793 19.70
Newfoundland & Labrador 1,668 18.33
Nova Scotia 1,432 15.73
Manitoba 1,359 14.93
Québec 632 6.94
British Columbia 139 1.53
Saskatchewan 83 0.91
Ontario 0 0.00
Alberta 0 0.00
_______________________________________
TOTAL 9,102 100.00
_______________________________________
2005-06 % of
SUMMARY $ each Total
_______________________________________
Atlantic Total 6,889 75.69
Prairie-B.C. Total 1,581 17.37
Québec Total 632 6.94
_______________________________________
TOTAL 9,102 100.00
_______________________________________Source: Department of Finance Canada - Equalization Program
Date modified (by source): 2005-04-04
Last modified/checked (by me): 2006-01-25
_____
And if you (whomever) kept the 2004-05 data then you can do this:
Equalization Entitlements – (2004-05, 2005-06) per person
Sorted by 2005-06 per person ($ millions)
Code:
____________________________________________
2004 2005 $ +/-
Prince Edward Island 1,776 1,996 +220
New Brunswick 1,537 1,793 +256
Newfoundland & Labrador 1,398 1,668 +270
Nova Scotia 1,223 1,432 +209
Manitoba 1,147 1,359 +212
Quebec 500 632 +132
British Columbia 197 139 - 58
Saskatchewan 464 83 -381
Ontario 0 0 0
Alberta 0 0 0
____________________________________________Source: Not Long For This World Finance "Canada" - Equalization Program
Date modified (by source): 2005-04-04
Last updated/checked (by me): 2005-01-25
_____
But slap on the CHT/CST, which already "equalize" making "the equalization transfer" nothing but equalization on equalization and take a look at the graph at the source above showing Alberta's own-source revenues, about 40% higher than Ontario's, but it gets all of $1 less per capita back in the major transfers:
MAJOR (nowhere near all) "Federal" Transfers
2004-05 and 2005-06 sorted from the highest, per person, to the lowest for 2005-06
$ Per person for fiscal 2004-05 and 2005-06 / the percentage the amount is of total government revenues but for the previous fiscal year. Confused? Welcome to the Canadas.
Code:
_____________________________________________________________
2004-05 2005-06 Change
Nunavat Territory $25,975 / 88% $28,061 / 91% UP 3%
Northwest Territories $16,633 / 78% $17,951 / 80% UP 2%
Yukon Territory $15,727 / 76% $16,818 / 78% UP 2%
Prince Edward Island $ 2,930 / 39% $3,291 / 42% UP 3%
New Brunswick $ 2,739 / 36% $3,111 / 39% UP 3%
Newfoundland & Labrador $ 2,449 / 32% $2,966 / 34% UP 2%*
Nova Scotia $ 2,455 / 39% $2,793 / 42% UP 3%
Manitoba $ 2,428 / 38% $2,717 / 40% UP 2%
Quebec $ 1,757 / 25% $2,052 / 26% UP 1%
British Columbia $ 1,383 / 18% $1,570 / 19% UP 1%
Saskatchewan $ 1,332 / 20% $1,487 / 28% UP 8%**
Ontario $ 1,322 / 21% $1,487 / 21% UP 0%
Alberta $ 1,321 / 16% $1,486 / 16% UP 0%
_____________________________________________________________**SK up the highest of every jurisdiction in percentage of provincial revenues
Source: Department of Finance Canada - Federal Transfers to Provinces and Territories (scroll down for all jurisdictions)
Date modified (by source): 2005-03-31
Last checked/modified (by me): 2006-01-25
_____
It's certainly not the whole story. They're pittances of tax returns to Ontario, Quebec and B.C. Alberta is getting about 40% too much back (per capita, it's how they're all mindlessly not worked out to mean anything) or Ontario is getting back 40% too little because own-source "provincial"/territorial revenues are supposed to offset these things; just like welfare is offset when people get jobs and have "own source" revenues, but welfare makes a lot more sense than the mess of "transfer systems" doesn't.
Quebec opted out of the CHST, now split in two, CHT/CST (Canada Health Transfer, Canada Social Transfer). Who knows what either of them even are? Look them up and tell me; then tell me why Quebec is still getting CHT/CST transfers from the confederates on top of "equalization"; which is all included above (and more) and you can see that Quebec is way, way below the real leeches of the Canadas and what else but "gimme gimme and gimme MORE!" :?: Up, up, up. If any of it had ever worked, none of these transfers would even exist today, but they keep going up and up, way over the rate of inflation and the "equalization" welfare handout transfer has an automatic 2.5% accelerator (2.5% guaranteed increase per fiscal year) ... while the ones paying for it have no such guarantees of economic growth (so revenue growth) to pay for it.
The above can shut a lot of people up around "Quebec" and it's alleged "special treatment" around things that people have no frikken clue what they're talking about, and are too lazy to even Google anything to find out: because their hatred/excuses based on outright lies are all they have.
I've been looking around for a web site that has one, two, maybe three people who know something and can discuss economics and not even socio-economics because populations (markets) are stark enough along with a few other factors, between Inner/Outer Canada, which lead to political priorities. Ontario and Quebec are the only jurisdictions in the federation that pay for their own law enforcement from top to bottom, bottom to top. The President of the Treasury Board (Alcock, Manitoba) is also the head of the "Canadian" Wheat Board. It's not "Canadian." It only provides subsidies to farmers in the four western provinces, so why are provincial subsidies called federal/Canadian? Ditto with RCMP law enforcement. There are four branches: the "FBI" end, the "SS" end (bodyguards for politicians/foriegn dignitaries even if they bring their own as they always do, they have to coordinate with that end of the RCMP), the decorative units for the tourists, though I've never seen one, other than on postcards, and Toronto gets more tourists/visitors than any other city in the Canadas per year, and the Alberta Federal Police, B.C. Federal Police, Newfoundland&Labrador Federal Police and on and on for every jurisdiction but Ontario and Quebec.
Hardly a day goes by now in Toronto where some other expense we had no clue we were paying is exposed; to the rest of the Ontarios via the Ontario feds or the rest of the Canadas via the confederate feds.
The Western Canadas have the "conservative" reform-alliance, Quebec has the Bloc, Ontario has nothing. It just sits back and smiles, while others piss in its face. And as people are gradually finding out about it, the confederate feds, Ontario's alleged representative, tried to deny it but there is no denying that the amount of tax (whatever they happen to be called) revenues paid out by "Ontario" (south; with all of 7% of the population outside the CMA's listed above; minus Sudbury, a few subway trains of people), is higher than what the Ontario feds came out with, in per capita tax returns, not "funding" back to the Ontario feds, as compared the handouts (minus Quebec and sometimes Alberta ... it depends on the price of commodities) other provincial governments get per capita and out of our own taxes.
It's like having enough food to feed your family with but others coming along with less, so offering them some and they take more food than you have to feed to your own family with. And Quebec is not in that position. Only South Ontario is. But it's some crime to even talk about it. "Say whatever you want about economics but..." But what? Are we supposed to die and starve to death so that others can burn our money? It's been over a hundred years since the industrial era hit North America, hundreds of billions of dollars in today's terms have been handed out to every jurisdiction and only South Quebec has managed to make anything out of itself.
s_lone said:
I called you what? Where? I tend to stick to economic snapshots, before they're used as marketing, and populations, without even getting into demographic groups let alone personal anything. I'm sorry if something I published (I think I've made all of two posts) came across as personal. I pulled some quotes out and responded to them, but it's nothing personal against the publishers. I have no clue who you even are.
Certainly the most divisive issue in Canada is the issue of sovereignty for Quebec. Many in this province wish to separate from Canada and pursue their own future as a separate nation. This issue is too emotional for rational discussion in many cases. The Anglophone Canadians view this as tearing up a country that continually strives to better itself. The separatists pretty much say “the hell with you”. Is all this worth it? It is true language plays a major role in defining ones culture, but isn’t that one of the principles Canadians hold dear? Diversity? There are many countries throughout the world that speak many languages, is it to say they should all be broken up into little pieces?
De Gaulle came to Quebec for Expo 67, in Montréal. As a Head of State, he should have flown into Ottawa, the capital to meet with the Canadian Prime Minister. He chose, instead, to sail on a French warship, which allowed him to arrive via the St. Lawrence River in Quebec City. For a head of state from a foreign nation to take a stand on an issue of sovereignty in another country is unheard of. In the end he left Canada without meeting the Canadian Prime Minister. Very diplomatic of him don’t you think? I’m sorry, or is it arrogance?
This is where it all began in my opinion with fervor. His infamous phrase "Vive Le Quebec libre!". His sole intention was to preserve the French language and not for any love of gaining your independence, let’s face it, France has had a bug up their ass ever since English dominated the world stage as an official international language. However a couple of decades later, you have that right through the Constitution Act of 1982 to preserve your language.
Moving on, what will you do with your Canadian citizenships? Give them back you say? And what about the Anglophone Canadians? What will they do? Will they all move to Ontario?
You need to carefully think of the repercussions of secession. What will the Atlantic provinces do when they are cut off from Canada? Join the independent state of Quebec? Petition for entry into the US? And what example will that set for other provinces?
Don’t you realize the mere notion that Quebec is even contemplating to secede from the Canadas creates such an emotional response of Anglophone Canadians which that in itself should tell you what Anglophone Canadians think about Francophones and how much they value you as part of Canada.
I think your issues mostly lie in the distribution of monies to ALL provinces. Why don’t you focus on that instead of packing up and leaving?
De Gaulle came to Quebec for Expo 67, in Montréal. As a Head of State, he should have flown into Ottawa, the capital to meet with the Canadian Prime Minister. He chose, instead, to sail on a French warship, which allowed him to arrive via the St. Lawrence River in Quebec City. For a head of state from a foreign nation to take a stand on an issue of sovereignty in another country is unheard of. In the end he left Canada without meeting the Canadian Prime Minister. Very diplomatic of him don’t you think? I’m sorry, or is it arrogance?
This is where it all began in my opinion with fervor. His infamous phrase "Vive Le Quebec libre!". His sole intention was to preserve the French language and not for any love of gaining your independence, let’s face it, France has had a bug up their ass ever since English dominated the world stage as an official international language. However a couple of decades later, you have that right through the Constitution Act of 1982 to preserve your language.
Moving on, what will you do with your Canadian citizenships? Give them back you say? And what about the Anglophone Canadians? What will they do? Will they all move to Ontario?
You need to carefully think of the repercussions of secession. What will the Atlantic provinces do when they are cut off from Canada? Join the independent state of Quebec? Petition for entry into the US? And what example will that set for other provinces?
Don’t you realize the mere notion that Quebec is even contemplating to secede from the Canadas creates such an emotional response of Anglophone Canadians which that in itself should tell you what Anglophone Canadians think about Francophones and how much they value you as part of Canada.
I think your issues mostly lie in the distribution of monies to ALL provinces. Why don’t you focus on that instead of packing up and leaving?
S-Ranger said
S-Ranger, this is where I was a tiny bit offended because I am the one who raised the issue of natural ressources and "having less or more people to feed."
But hey, I believe you if you tell me it's not personal.
When I say "Say whatever you want about the economy...", it is because I strongly believe that for most seperatists in Quebec, the issue is especially cultural. It is a fact that most french speakers just don't feel any form of cultural connection with the rest of Canada, even if our culture is intimately connected with the global Canadian one.
I think seperatism is mostly emotional. I often say that my heart is Québecois but my mind is Canadian. Ideally, it seems to me that Canada should evolve into a more decentralized country where provinces would truly feel they are masters in their own house. In that case, I'd be glad to stay Canadian.
S-Ranger, this is where I was a tiny bit offended because I am the one who raised the issue of natural ressources and "having less or more people to feed."
But hey, I believe you if you tell me it's not personal.
When I say "Say whatever you want about the economy...", it is because I strongly believe that for most seperatists in Quebec, the issue is especially cultural. It is a fact that most french speakers just don't feel any form of cultural connection with the rest of Canada, even if our culture is intimately connected with the global Canadian one.
I think seperatism is mostly emotional. I often say that my heart is Québecois but my mind is Canadian. Ideally, it seems to me that Canada should evolve into a more decentralized country where provinces would truly feel they are masters in their own house. In that case, I'd be glad to stay Canadian.
They threaten to separate every few years,and this seems to bring them even more money from Ottawa.The problem with these blackmailers is that the demands for money never cease. There are two ways to deal with blackmailers-one is to let them know there is no more money and do their worst and the second way is my favourite..stomp them into the dirt!
English /French, French/English. Quebecers boo hoo they are a minority -- welll duhhhhhh. Any province is a minority when they don't have the majority population which except for the claim to 'uniqueness' doesn't make Que a minority. Where they are a true minority is only in the language and that is being rectified every year. There are other provinces with their unique cultural ways that are not making the same claim to fame as Quebecers.
For Que to seperate. Why not? If Que separates is this new country going to be as generous, as they want Real Canada to be with them, with the other 'unique' population that won't want the Que brand of uniqueness, and allow them to separate from separated country Que??? Some else mentioned this in one of the other posts but no one deemed to answer it. Hasn't Montreal already said it will stay with RC or Real Canada and haven't the northern peoples said they will separate from Que to form their own country? Interesting.
Not that I care if Que stays but why stupidly would Que want to separate?? Right now they have everything and are gaining more with each govt? They all but in name rule Canada without having all the headaches associated with the physical ruling body, they have RC kissing their backsides, they have the Cdn dollar, the Cdn tax dollars and return almost nothing. Seems like a pretty sweet deal.
It is a pretty scarey thought but realistic or not each province, or the people, have been giving thoughts to how they would form alliances with some of their neighbouring States - which means that these States have been doing independence thinking on their own. I have seen web sites and forums dedicated to this type of thinking.
Additionally there is the now First Nations. They, following Quebecs examples, are claiming with more real legitimacy than Que, the very same thing Que wants -- autonomy at the expense of RC.
The next group is going to be the Islamics. When their numbers have increased enough they will get on the same bandwagon only it won't be for separation from Canada but that Canada submit to Islam. Ontario has given them first precedence with the passing of sharia law.
So, what Canada? Canada becomes the name for a region with all the little countries doing their own thing? A suggestion is for the provinces to have total control of their own destiny within the Canadian aegis. What is that? With each province protecting its claim to uniqueness what will be there to give help when it is needed (this would be assuming that the federal govt was capable) Not having a federal bail out because federalism sn't needed, hmmm. All these little countries would be knocking on the States's door for aid and then what would happen? No, wait. I am forgetting. Plans for Cdn countries and some of the States are already being thought out so that is a moot point.
Someone mentioned it here too - bout the South and the North. From another forum I was mightily surprised to learn that there is still deep dissention between the South and the North. It seems that the South still appreciates the idea of being its own country and except for language they have the same equal claim to uniqueness Que does.
For Que to seperate. Why not? If Que separates is this new country going to be as generous, as they want Real Canada to be with them, with the other 'unique' population that won't want the Que brand of uniqueness, and allow them to separate from separated country Que??? Some else mentioned this in one of the other posts but no one deemed to answer it. Hasn't Montreal already said it will stay with RC or Real Canada and haven't the northern peoples said they will separate from Que to form their own country? Interesting.
Not that I care if Que stays but why stupidly would Que want to separate?? Right now they have everything and are gaining more with each govt? They all but in name rule Canada without having all the headaches associated with the physical ruling body, they have RC kissing their backsides, they have the Cdn dollar, the Cdn tax dollars and return almost nothing. Seems like a pretty sweet deal.
It is a pretty scarey thought but realistic or not each province, or the people, have been giving thoughts to how they would form alliances with some of their neighbouring States - which means that these States have been doing independence thinking on their own. I have seen web sites and forums dedicated to this type of thinking.
Additionally there is the now First Nations. They, following Quebecs examples, are claiming with more real legitimacy than Que, the very same thing Que wants -- autonomy at the expense of RC.
The next group is going to be the Islamics. When their numbers have increased enough they will get on the same bandwagon only it won't be for separation from Canada but that Canada submit to Islam. Ontario has given them first precedence with the passing of sharia law.
So, what Canada? Canada becomes the name for a region with all the little countries doing their own thing? A suggestion is for the provinces to have total control of their own destiny within the Canadian aegis. What is that? With each province protecting its claim to uniqueness what will be there to give help when it is needed (this would be assuming that the federal govt was capable) Not having a federal bail out because federalism sn't needed, hmmm. All these little countries would be knocking on the States's door for aid and then what would happen? No, wait. I am forgetting. Plans for Cdn countries and some of the States are already being thought out so that is a moot point.
Someone mentioned it here too - bout the South and the North. From another forum I was mightily surprised to learn that there is still deep dissention between the South and the North. It seems that the South still appreciates the idea of being its own country and except for language they have the same equal claim to uniqueness Que does.
I am a big believer in Canada. I love this country. I more than anyone want to see it remain whole. However, the more I read, the more I talk to others, the more I think that this country's days are numbered.
To save Canada, serious changes will have to be made to the federation. Although the threat of Quebec separation is the greatest, you will find numerous sites advocating the separation of just about every other province. There are sites for Western Canada separation, Alberta Separation, BC separation and even Newfoundland separation. There are even sites advocating splitting of individual provinces (i.e. Northern Ontario and Labrador)
Canada is a tough country to govern; its size and population diversity makes it impossible for a central government to please everyone.
It seems that Canadians are moving away from the notion of being a family that supports one another to a group of selfish provinces that only are concerned about themselves.
What to Canadians want to be? Separate individual regional states joined by economic & political treaties or a nation united by emotion and common values?
Canada can succeed if we really want it to.
To save Canada, serious changes will have to be made to the federation. Although the threat of Quebec separation is the greatest, you will find numerous sites advocating the separation of just about every other province. There are sites for Western Canada separation, Alberta Separation, BC separation and even Newfoundland separation. There are even sites advocating splitting of individual provinces (i.e. Northern Ontario and Labrador)
Canada is a tough country to govern; its size and population diversity makes it impossible for a central government to please everyone.
It seems that Canadians are moving away from the notion of being a family that supports one another to a group of selfish provinces that only are concerned about themselves.
What to Canadians want to be? Separate individual regional states joined by economic & political treaties or a nation united by emotion and common values?
Canada can succeed if we really want it to.
S-Ranger, I read your elaborate posts with a bit more attention and you certainly raise some interesting issues. I personally don't know much about economics and would need more knowledge (I am half your age it seems...) to truly understand your whole point of view.
This is why I am asking you if you would be able to express the essential of your opinion on the subject in just a few sentences. If it is possible, I would very much like to grasp the essence of your posts without going too much into details. I'm not underestimating the importance of details here, I just want to read a relatively short and concise synthesis of your opinion.
(My opinion for dummies if you want to see it that way
This is why I am asking you if you would be able to express the essential of your opinion on the subject in just a few sentences. If it is possible, I would very much like to grasp the essence of your posts without going too much into details. I'm not underestimating the importance of details here, I just want to read a relatively short and concise synthesis of your opinion.
(My opinion for dummies if you want to see it that way
Re: RE: Quebec shouldn't separate from Canada
Is the only way this country will survive. Well, its the only it will survive if it wants to claim cultural diversity.
DasFX said:
Is the only way this country will survive. Well, its the only it will survive if it wants to claim cultural diversity.
RE: Quebec shouldn't sepa
If Quebecers want to be independent then that's their choice. Honestly I wouldn't miss them, the whole idea that Canada has to stick together doesn't really impress me. But if all the provinces don't mind grouping up, then there are definitely benefits. United as one big entity we command a larger economy and resource pool obviously, then we would individually. It gives us more power in the global and even domestic arenas. But if the folks want to be on their own then it's not my business or right to condemn it.
If Quebecers want to be independent then that's their choice. Honestly I wouldn't miss them, the whole idea that Canada has to stick together doesn't really impress me. But if all the provinces don't mind grouping up, then there are definitely benefits. United as one big entity we command a larger economy and resource pool obviously, then we would individually. It gives us more power in the global and even domestic arenas. But if the folks want to be on their own then it's not my business or right to condemn it.
If we don't stick together will all be singing god bless america faster than you can shake a stick
I really don't want Quebec to seperate, but I could see them greater autonomy over their own affairs.
However, there unique culture is no excuse for Ottawa to pour money into them.
If the referendum says they are leaving that can leave though, but it would be a sad day.
However, there unique culture is no excuse for Ottawa to pour money into them.
If the referendum says they are leaving that can leave though, but it would be a sad day.
The problem of provincial disenchantment with "federalism" can all be placed at the feet of the Liberals. First because of the growing fiscal imbalance, then the one-off side deals for Newfoundland, N.S., the different standards for dealing with Quebec than any other province, and now see the fiasco that is the sponsership program. Let's see Martin cast himself as the saviour of the country in the next election. Ha!
RE: Quebec shouldn't sepa
It can be laid at Mulroney's feet too, MMMikey. I'm not sure if your memory is short or just selective, but this stuff goes back a long way. Part of the reason for Newfoundland's deal is because they got screwed on a hydro-electric deal in the distant past, for instance.
It can be laid at Mulroney's feet too, MMMikey. I'm not sure if your memory is short or just selective, but this stuff goes back a long way. Part of the reason for Newfoundland's deal is because they got screwed on a hydro-electric deal in the distant past, for instance.
i just read that few last page honestly, and i wonder why everybody think ottawa pour lots of money into Quebec ? seriously, our finance minister dont seem to think that since he's still claiming that proportionally we send more money to ottawa for what we get back if we compare to every other province...
RE: Quebec shouldn't sepa
It's become stylish in some circles to bash Quebec, Cathou. One of their lines is that Quebec gets too much money, too many favours, or has dispropotionate influence.
The truth is that Quebec does get some extra stuff. That's what happens when you have a lot of the population. Ontario gets a fair bit of stuff too. Alberta has been getting more and more as their population increases. Same with BC.
That tends to happen in a democracy when there are population disparities.
It's become stylish in some circles to bash Quebec, Cathou. One of their lines is that Quebec gets too much money, too many favours, or has dispropotionate influence.
The truth is that Quebec does get some extra stuff. That's what happens when you have a lot of the population. Ontario gets a fair bit of stuff too. Alberta has been getting more and more as their population increases. Same with BC.
That tends to happen in a democracy when there are population disparities.
Re: RE: Quebec shouldn't sepa
This is something you really here a lot of, especially from the west. How would one really miss a province? The west feels distant from Quebec due to the 2000-4000 km that separates them. Most of the 9 million folk in the west probably have never been to Quebec, so what real attachment would they have to the place. I mean, if BC left the federation, would I, a resident of southern Ontario, miss BC? Probably not, I mean I've been there twice, beautiful place. If they separated, I could still visit BC so how would I really miss them. I'm sure most in the west wouldn't miss Ontario either if we decided to leave.
Would you as a resident of the Lower mainland necessarily "miss" Prince George or Vancouver Island is they suddenly ceased to be part of BC? Probably not.
If Quebec wants to leave, that is indeed their choice, but it is a choice that I hope they don't exercise.
OakServe said:
This is something you really here a lot of, especially from the west. How would one really miss a province? The west feels distant from Quebec due to the 2000-4000 km that separates them. Most of the 9 million folk in the west probably have never been to Quebec, so what real attachment would they have to the place. I mean, if BC left the federation, would I, a resident of southern Ontario, miss BC? Probably not, I mean I've been there twice, beautiful place. If they separated, I could still visit BC so how would I really miss them. I'm sure most in the west wouldn't miss Ontario either if we decided to leave.
Would you as a resident of the Lower mainland necessarily "miss" Prince George or Vancouver Island is they suddenly ceased to be part of BC? Probably not.
If Quebec wants to leave, that is indeed their choice, but it is a choice that I hope they don't exercise.
Re: RE: Quebec shouldn't sepa
Canadians love to bash each other. I mean people pick on Newfoundland and call them a bunch of unemployed bums, people pick on Alberta saying that they are all bunch of rednecks, people pick on Torontonian calling them egotistical American wannabes. Urban folk pick on the farmers and vice versa. Older immigrants pick on the newer immigrants. West vs. East, North vs. South.
Where does it end? If Quebec left, we'd just focus our abuse on another group of people or province.
Reverend Blair said:
Canadians love to bash each other. I mean people pick on Newfoundland and call them a bunch of unemployed bums, people pick on Alberta saying that they are all bunch of rednecks, people pick on Torontonian calling them egotistical American wannabes. Urban folk pick on the farmers and vice versa. Older immigrants pick on the newer immigrants. West vs. East, North vs. South.
Where does it end? If Quebec left, we'd just focus our abuse on another group of people or province.