Quebec having immigrants sign a pledge to Quebec values and laws is great progess

Adriatik

Electoral Member
Oct 31, 2008
125
3
18
Montreal
Quebec is not special, one country, one pledge...

Sorry but Quebec is different... Legislation in the province state that French is the official language, that is a big difference. Whether the legislation is constitutional or not is irrelevant since it is passed legislation in effect since over 2 decades now.

Besides, these laws have been around since the 1980s so if they were unconstitutional, the Supreme Court of Canada would have already blocked them.

If the Supreme Court hasn't been able to block the language laws yet in 2 decades, they will never be able to do it.

Unfotunately for some, the language laws in Quebec are a part of reality and must be followed, therefore Quebec has the right based on language legislation to include usage of French in its pledge.
 

Risus

Genius
May 24, 2006
5,373
25
38
Toronto
What a good idea.
Trust Quebec.

The other provinces should follow suit as soon as possible.

There are a heck of a lot of good ideas on the Provincial level that have come out of Qubec.
Some bad ones of course.

The rest of the provinces could do worse than to follow in Quebec's footsteps on a few issues.

Trex
If you believe that crap, I have some swamp land to sell you....
 

Risus

Genius
May 24, 2006
5,373
25
38
Toronto
Sorry but Quebec is different... Legislation in the province state that French is the official language, that is a big difference. Whether the legislation is constitutional or not is irrelevant since it is passed legislation in effect since over 2 decades now.

Besides, these laws have been around since the 1980s so if they were unconstitutional, the Supreme Court of Canada would have already blocked them.

If the Supreme Court hasn't been able to block the language laws yet in 2 decades, they will never be able to do it.

Unfotunately for some, the language laws in Quebec are a part of reality and must be followed, therefore Quebec has the right based on language legislation to include usage of French in its pledge.

The language laws in quebec are unconstitutional . Simple as that. Get used to it.
 

Adriatik

Electoral Member
Oct 31, 2008
125
3
18
Montreal
The language laws in quebec are unconstitutional . Simple as that. Get used to it.

You probably can't even give me good arguments of how the language laws are unconstitutional.

If they are so unconstitutional, why hasn't the Supreme Court blocked them yet after more than 20 years?

The language laws are here to stay so I think that you will be the one who will have to get used to things...
 

Risus

Genius
May 24, 2006
5,373
25
38
Toronto
You probably can't even give me good arguments of how the language laws are unconstitutional.

If they are so unconstitutional, why hasn't the Supreme Court blocked them yet after more than 20 years?

The language laws are here to stay so I think that you will be the one who will have to get used to things...
The supreme court is afraid of losing quebec. I say let them go... They would come crawling back.
 

Adriatik

Electoral Member
Oct 31, 2008
125
3
18
Montreal
The supreme court is afraid of losing quebec. I say let them go... They would come crawling back.

You proved me right...

How is that in any way a valid argument? So what you are saying is that the language laws are unconstitutional because The Supreme Court is afraid of losing Quebec? Is that all you could come up with?

Here you desperately need this: McGill University Get some education and then come back to debate...
 
  • Like
Reactions: s_lone

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
848
113
70
Saint John, N.B.
Okay guys, calm down.

Many years ago Quebec's language laws were found to be unconstitutional by the Supreme Court of Canada.

The province of Quebec then invoked the "notwithstanding" clause.

therefore the laws stand.

Although they have changed a few times.....


In 1988, the court said that English could not be prohibited altogether, but that requiring the predominance of French on commercial signs was a reasonable limit on freedom of expression.

The public reaction in Quebec was swift and forceful. Confronted with the angry demonstrations of those defending Bill 101, Robert Bourassa – back from the political wasteland for his second tour as premier by then – came up with a compromise. Invoking the "notwithstanding" clause to override the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, Bourassa introduced Bill 178. It decreed that only French could be used on exterior signs while English would be allowed inside commercial establishments.



CBC News Indepth: Bill 101
 
Last edited:

Risus

Genius
May 24, 2006
5,373
25
38
Toronto
Thanks for posting that, Colpy. Wasn't the not withstanding clause another of trudeau's bonehead moves?
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
848
113
70
Saint John, N.B.
Thanks for posting that, Colpy. Wasn't the not withstanding clause another of trudeau's bonehead moves?

If I remember correctly, Trudeau did not want the clause, but included it because it was the only way the premiers would accept the Charter.

Not his fault. Trudeau was not at fault.

Having said that, I'll now go to the basement and shoot myself.

:)

Well, except that he could have set aside his ego and his desire for a great (what's the damn word?????? I hate old age.....you know, the word that refers to your reputation as a leader...) anyway, and let Canada wait until there was not a separatist in power in Quebec, and not alienated the province, and avoided the stupidity of Meech Lake and Charlottetown.....but noooooooo.......

Anyway, I digress....
 

Trex

Electoral Member
Apr 4, 2007
917
31
28
Hither and yon
If I remember correctly, Trudeau did not want the clause, but included it because it was the only way the premiers would accept the Charter.

Not his fault. Trudeau was not at fault.

Having said that, I'll now go to the basement and shoot myself.

:)

Well, except that he could have set aside his ego and his desire for a great (what's the damn word?????? I hate old age.....you know, the word that refers to your reputation as a leader...) anyway, and let Canada wait until there was not a separatist in power in Quebec, and not alienated the province, and avoided the stupidity of Meech Lake and Charlottetown.....but noooooooo.......

Anyway, I digress....

Legacy?
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
32,493
212
63
In the bush near Sudbury
Okay guys, calm down.

Many years ago Quebec's language laws were found to be unconstitutional by the Supreme Court of Canada.

The province of Quebec then invoked the "notwithstanding" clause.

therefore the laws stand.

Although they have changed a few times....

CBC News Indepth: Bill 101

How can Quebec invoke a notwithstanding clause in an Act to which they're not even a signatory?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/features/constitution/
Canadian and Quebec Charter of Rights and Freedoms

Though I support Quebec's bid to get immigrants to adapt to the culture - and NOT the other way around, I don't support allowing Quebec to thumb it's nose at Canada and its laws. Play by the rules or make the break clean. Enough with the hostage games.
 

Trex

Electoral Member
Apr 4, 2007
917
31
28
Hither and yon
If you believe that crap, I have some swamp land to sell you....

Naw I don't think so.

Here 's the thing as a Westerner I oppose Quebec's special position in confederation just as much as you.
I oppose its special powers.
I oppose the special funding it gets.
I too believe it should be one of 10 provinces and treated just like all the other provinces.
In a perfect world.

Risus here is where we differ.
I believe it was the Premiers of the OTHER provinces and the PMO's office that are to blame.
Not Quebec. I admire them.
It is the job of every single elected official in the province of Quebec to do the best they possibly can for their Province.
That means that every nickle and dime they sucked out of the Federal purse was fair game.
That means every special deal and every special power they negotiated away from other Provinces or the Feds was fair game.
The Quebec politicians played the game one hell of a lot better than their opposition.
I admire that.
What the heck do you think the people of Quebec elect their politicians to do anyway?
Its to get the absolute best possible deal for Quebec they can.

If the Premiers of other provinces want to excel at cutting the best possible deals with the Feds that they possibly can I would suggest they should start following in Quebec's footsteps.
After all they are the smartest kid on the bloc (pun).

Just because Quebec schooled the rest of us doesn't mean you get mad at them.

Trex
 
Last edited:

Adriatik

Electoral Member
Oct 31, 2008
125
3
18
Montreal
If I remember correctly, Trudeau did not want the clause, but included it because it was the only way the premiers would accept the Charter.

Not his fault. Trudeau was not at fault.

Having said that, I'll now go to the basement and shoot myself.

:)

Well, except that he could have set aside his ego and his desire for a great (what's the damn word?????? I hate old age.....you know, the word that refers to your reputation as a leader...) anyway, and let Canada wait until there was not a separatist in power in Quebec, and not alienated the province, and avoided the stupidity of Meech Lake and Charlottetown.....but noooooooo.......

Anyway, I digress....


You seem to think that the result would have been different if Trudeau would have waited until the Parti Québecois lost power to repatriate the constitution.. Not likely.

The elected governments of both René Lévesque(PQ) and Robert Bourassa(Liberals) could not come to a deal with Ottawa on the constitution, thus projecting the voice of Quebecers from 1976 through 1992. Then another PQ government held a second referendum in 1995 which almost succeeded showing more discontent from Quebecers. The PQ was in power until 2003 so there was definitely no deal to be made. Basically what you are saying is that the Federal government would have had to wait 19 years to negotiate the constitution. The people of Quebec would have never supported any deal inferior than that discussed in the Meech lake and Charlottetown Accords which were never supported by the other provinces...

Besides, since 2003, Jean Charest has been Liberal Premier of Quebec so what has been keeping Ottawa from opening up the books and offering another deal?

Quebec is willing to sit down at the tables if there will be some progress in the terms of the deal.
 

scratch

Senate Member
May 20, 2008
5,658
22
38
Naw I don't think so.

Here 's the thing as a Westerner I oppose Quebec's special position in confederation just as much as you.
I oppose its special powers.
I oppose the special funding it gets.
I too believe it should be one of 10 provinces and treated just like all the other provinces.
In a perfect world.

Risus here is where we differ.
I believe it was the Premiers of the OTHER provinces and the PMO's office that are to blame.
Not Quebec. I admire them.
It is the job of every single elected official in the province of Quebec to do the best they possibly can for their Province.
That means that every nickle and dime they sucked out of the Federal purse was fair game.
That means every special deal and every special power they negotiated away from other Provinces or the Feds was fair game.
The Quebec politicians played the game one hell of a lot better than their opposition.
I admire that.
What the heck do you think the people of Quebec elect their politicians to do anyway?
Its to get the absolute best possible deal for Quebec they can.

If the Premiers of other provinces want to excel at cutting the best possible deals with the Feds that they possibly can I would suggest they should start following in Quebec's footsteps.
After all they are the smartest kid on the bloc (pun).

Just because Quebec schooled the rest of us doesn't mean you get mad at them.

Trex
You have surprized me Trex.
Your statement was clear and concise.
An example to be followed.

regards,
scratch
 

no color

Electoral Member
May 20, 2007
349
98
28
1967 World's Fair
I don't see what the big deal is all about? Immigrants to the provice can still choose which of the two communities they want to be a part of. I am a part of the English speaking community, and can't speak French, however it doesn't affect me as most Montrealers can speak English. I don't work in the public service so I'm not bilingual. I sponsored my wife who's also an immigrant and has been living here now for quite some time and she speaks no French as well. It's kind of pointless if an immigrant who lives on the west side of the city and has a job where no French is required and has English speaking friends and family is required to learn French. It's one thing if you move to France where you are expected to learn French as you generally only have a French speaking community, but that's not the case here in Quebec (at least not in Montreal). I suspect that this law is not going to hold out. I find it hard to believe that you will be denied the "right" to sponsor a family member if that family member refuses to learn French.
 

Risus

Genius
May 24, 2006
5,373
25
38
Toronto
I don't see what the big deal is all about? Immigrants to the provice can still choose which of the two communities they want to be a part of. I am a part of the English speaking community, and can't speak French, however it doesn't affect me as most Montrealers can speak English. I don't work in the public service so I'm not bilingual. I sponsored my wife who's also an immigrant and has been living here now for quite some time and she speaks no French as well. It's kind of pointless if an immigrant who lives on the west side of the city and has a job where no French is required and has English speaking friends and family is required to learn French. It's one thing if you move to France where you are expected to learn French as you generally only have a French speaking community, but that's not the case here in Quebec (at least not in Montreal). I suspect that this law is not going to hold out. I find it hard to believe that you will be denied the "right" to sponsor a family member if that family member refuses to learn French.

You haven't travelled around quebec much, have you? You will find many quebecours who will refuse to speak English, especially in the southern townships and quebec city.
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
29,467
11,088
113
Regina, Saskatchewan
I got a weird Email today. Interesting. I tried to resize it, or even just to get rid
of the goofy font....but that didn't work. Here it is:


SALUTE to Denmark .. This could very well happen here on our Continent....

Susan MacAllen is a contributing editor for(FamilySecurityMatters.org) Salute the Danish Flag - it's a Symbol ofWestern Freedom By Susan MacAllen



In 1978-9 I was living and studying in Denmark . But in 1978 - even in Copenhagen, one didn't see Muslim immigrants.




The Danish population embraced visitors, celebrated the exotic, wentout of its way to protect each of its citizens. It was proud of its newbrand of socialist liberalism one in development since the conservatives hadlost power in 1929 - a system where no worker had to struggle to survive,where one ultimately could count upon the state as in, perhaps, no otherwestern nation at the time.

The rest of Europe saw the Scandinavians as free-thinking, progressiveand infinitely generous in their welfare policies. Denmark boasted low crimerates, devotion to the environment, a superior educational system and ahistory of humanitarianism.


Denmark was also most generous in its immigration policies - it

offered the best welcome in Europe to the new immigrant: generous welfarepayments from first arrival plus additional perks in transportation, housingand education. It was determined to set a world example for inclusivenessand multiculturalism.How could it have predicted that one day in 2005 a series of politicalcartoons in a newspaper would spark violence that would leave dozens dead inthe streets -all because its commitment to multiculturalism would come backto bite?


By the 1990's the growing urban Muslim population was obvious - andits unwillingness to integrate into Danish society was obvious.

Years of immigrants had settled into Muslim-exclusive enclaves. As theMuslim leadership became more vocal about what they considered the decadenceof Denmark 's liberal way of life, the Danes - once so welcoming - began tofeel slighted. Many Danes had begun to see Islam as incompatible with their

long-standing values: belief in personal liberty and free speech, in

equality for women, in tolerance for other ethnic groups, and a deep pridein Danish heritage and history.



An article by Daniel Pipes and LarsHedegaard, in which they forecasted accurately that the growing immigrant
problem inDenmark would explode. In the article they reported:


'Muslim immigrants.constitute 5 percent of the population but consumeupwards of 40 percent of the welfare spending.'

'Muslims are only 4 percent of Denmark's 5.4 million people but makeup a majority of the country's convicted rapists, an especially

combustible issue given that practically all the female victims are

non-Muslim. Similar, if lesser, disproportions are found in other crimes.'


'Over time, as Muslim immigrants increase in numbers, they wish lessto mix with the indigenous population.

A recent survey finds that only 5 percent of young Muslim immigrantswould readily marry a Dane.'



'Forced marriages - promising a newborn daughter in Denmark to a malecousin in the home country, then compelling her to marry him, sometimes onpain of death - are one problem'

'Muslim leaders openly declare their goal of introducing Islamic law

once Denmark's Muslim population grows large enough - a

not-that-remote prospect. If present trends persist, one sociologist

estimates, every third inhabitant of Denmark in 40 years will be Muslim.'


It is easy to understand why a growing number of Danes would feel thatMuslim immigrants show little respect for Danish values and laws.

An example is the phenomenon common to other European countries andCanada .: some Muslims in Denmark who opted to leave the Muslim faith havebeen murdered in the name of Islam, while others hide in fear for theirlives. Jews are also threatened and harassed openly by Muslim leadersin Denmark, a country where once Christian citizens worked to smuggle outnearly all of their 7,000 Jews by night to Sweden - before the Nazis couldinvade. I think of my Danish friend Elsa - who as a teenager had dreadedcrossing the street to the bakery every morning under the eyes of occupyingNazi soldiers - and I wonder what she would say today.


In 2001, Denmark elected the most conservative government in some 70years - one that had some decidedly non-generous ideas about liberalunfettered immigration. Today Denmark has the strictest immigration policiesin Europe . ( Its effort to protect itself has been met with accusations of'racism' by liberal media across Europe - even as other governments struggleto right the social problems wrought by years of too-lax immigration.)


If you wish to become Danish, you must attend three years of languageclasses. You must pass a test on Denmark 's history, culture, and a Danishlanguage test:



You must live in Denmark for 7 years before applying for citizenship.


You must demonstrate an intent to work, and have a job waiting. If you wishto bring a spouse into Denmark , you must both be over 24 years of age, andyou won't find it so easy anymore to move your friends and family to Denmark with you.

You will not be allowed to build a mosque in Copenhagen . Although yourchildren have a choice of some 30 Arabic culture and language schoolsin Denmark , they will be strongly encouraged to assimilate to Danish societyin ways that past immigrants weren't.


In 2006, the Danish minister for employment, Claus Hjort Frederiksen,spoke publicly of the burden of Muslim immigrants on the Danish welfaresystem, and it was horrifying: the government's welfare committee hadcalculated that if immigration from Third World countries were blocked, 75percent of the cuts needed to sustain the huge welfare system in comingdecades would be unnecessary. In other words, the welfare system as it

existed was being exploited by immigrants to the point of eventuallybankrupting the government. 'We are simply forced to adopt a new policy onimmigration.



The calculations of the welfare committee are terrifying and show howunsuccessful the integration of immigrants has been up to now,' he said.

A large thorn in the side of Denmark 's imams is the Minister of

Immigration and Integration, Rikke Hvilshoj. She makes no bones about thenew policy toward immigration, 'The number of foreigners coming to thecountry makes a difference,' Hvilshøj says, 'There is an inverse correlationbetween how many come here and how well we can receive the foreigners thatcome.' And on Muslim immigrants needing to demonstrate a willingness toblend in, 'In my view, Denmark should be a country withroom for different cultures and religions. Some values, however, aremore important than others. We refuse to question democracy, equal rights,and freedom of speech.'


Hvilshoj has paid a price for her show of backbone. Perhaps to test

her resolve, the leading radical imam in Denmark, Ahmed Abdel Rahman AbuLaban, demanded that the government pay blood money to the family of aMuslim who was murdered in a suburb of Copenhagen, stating that the family'sthirst for revenge could be thwarted for money. When Hvilshoj dismissed hisdemand, he argued that in Muslim culture the payment of retribution moneywas common, to which Hvilshoj replied that what is done in a Muslim countryis not necessarily what is done in Denmark.


The Muslim reply came soonafter: her house was torched while she, her husband and children slept. Allmanaged to escape unharmed, but she and her family were moved to a secretlocation and she and other ministers were assigned bodyguards for the firsttime - in a country where such murderous violence was once so scarce.

Her government has slid to the right, and her borders have tightened.

Many believe that what happens in the next decade will determine

whetherDenmark survives as a bastion of good living, humane thinking andsocial responsibility, or whether it becomes a nation at civil war withsupporters of Sharia law.


And meanwhile, Canadians clamor for stricter immigration policies, anddemand an end to state welfare programs that allow many immigrants to liveon the public dole. As we in Canada look at the enclaves of Muslims amongstus, and see those who enter our shores too easily, dare live on our taxes,yet refuse to embrace our culture, respect our traditions, participate inour legal system, obey our laws, speak our language, appreciate our history

.. . we would do well to look to Denmark , and say a prayer for her future and

for our own..