well putting them into ashcrofts internment camps could be miscontrued as being for their own protection.............. NOT!!!!
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/CfCAHV.html
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/CfCAHV.html
Preemptive War Criminals
- Thread starter czardogs
- Start date
Why wouldn't they want to hear about it? Is this the white Americans that don't want to hear about it because I know that around Oct 2002 our borders were full of Muslim-Americans looking for safety.
Isn't that a kick in the head, to move to a country portrayed as and portraying themselves as land of the free, only to have to move again to the True land of the free, Canada.
I can understand their fear though.
If this was in our own backyard or the states, it would be a whole different ball game.
Innocent people are dying. End of story.
Could you handle seeing your family laying in the streets dead? Is it worth it?
Innocent people are dying. End of story.
Could you handle seeing your family laying in the streets dead? Is it worth it?
Hrmm...
Okay, now I like to consider myself a liberal. I think socialized medicine is good. I think that the government should moderate industry. But...well, as an American I'm a bit insulted.
Canada. Why can Canada be "the 'true' land of the free"? Because it is under America's political umbrela. When has Canada ever had to make a difficult political descion to protect its interests? I've never heard of Canadian political termoil...but maybe that's because I'm an American. Canada has had the luxory of not needing to maintain a large military because it has always had some greater power protecting it (America and Britian before that).
Innocent people are dying. Yes. True. But in all war innocents will die. But ask yourself how many are dying...compared to other wars? If bady counts are still in the hundreds...well, that's barely a 'war' now isn't it? Why isn't it in the thousands yet? Because America is holding back...trying to fight a strategic and political war all at once.
Now...You are entitled to your opinions, and free to voice them. But becareful not to find yourself in a liberal Macarthism (were any conservative idea is rejected merely because it is conservative). Were America gains, Canada gains...like it or not. So you can sit on the sidelines and critice the whole situation, but in the end you gain as much as any American does.
So tell you what, if you have a gripe...a real and serrious political disagreement with America's policies write your represenative. Tell them you disagree and want that shown. Tell them you do not want your contry to profit from the wars of others. -You- have the 'real' democracy...use it. And watch and see if what you want your governement to do really happens...see if Canada imposes sanctions on the USA. See if international relations between these neighbors worsen. My bet is that they don't, because in the end your system is as "bad" as ours...and that clearly, a political umbrela allows you to appear all warm and fuzzy. If there was another nation doing this, Americans could sit back and knock on them and not have to do it ourselves. But there isn't. So...like it or not...we are doing it. America is fighting a war.
You've got tools to try and stop it, just like I do (and I'm trying to see it ended)...but sitting in your chair waxing philisophical about how "evil" America is and how "foolish" its people are will not accomplish anything.
Life isn't fair. And we can't all get along. Step out of your bong water haze, blinking into the light of the world and you might see that...hell, live on the streets for a month and you will KNOW it.
It's a pretty picture you are all painting (through implication) and a nice ideal. But it's a goal...and America's growing up. Twenty or Thirty years ago we would be leveling Bagdad by now...and 40-60 years ago we might have been nuking the place. Give us credit for the steps we are making...and stop telling us (just for a while) where we should be. We know, and we are trying...but it's an imperfect world. And no one walks without falling a few times.
WulF-Krigan
P.S. Thank you all for the interesting topics and discusion. Most brain stimulous I've had in a year or so...
Okay, now I like to consider myself a liberal. I think socialized medicine is good. I think that the government should moderate industry. But...well, as an American I'm a bit insulted.
Canada. Why can Canada be "the 'true' land of the free"? Because it is under America's political umbrela. When has Canada ever had to make a difficult political descion to protect its interests? I've never heard of Canadian political termoil...but maybe that's because I'm an American. Canada has had the luxory of not needing to maintain a large military because it has always had some greater power protecting it (America and Britian before that).
Innocent people are dying. Yes. True. But in all war innocents will die. But ask yourself how many are dying...compared to other wars? If bady counts are still in the hundreds...well, that's barely a 'war' now isn't it? Why isn't it in the thousands yet? Because America is holding back...trying to fight a strategic and political war all at once.
Now...You are entitled to your opinions, and free to voice them. But becareful not to find yourself in a liberal Macarthism (were any conservative idea is rejected merely because it is conservative). Were America gains, Canada gains...like it or not. So you can sit on the sidelines and critice the whole situation, but in the end you gain as much as any American does.
So tell you what, if you have a gripe...a real and serrious political disagreement with America's policies write your represenative. Tell them you disagree and want that shown. Tell them you do not want your contry to profit from the wars of others. -You- have the 'real' democracy...use it. And watch and see if what you want your governement to do really happens...see if Canada imposes sanctions on the USA. See if international relations between these neighbors worsen. My bet is that they don't, because in the end your system is as "bad" as ours...and that clearly, a political umbrela allows you to appear all warm and fuzzy. If there was another nation doing this, Americans could sit back and knock on them and not have to do it ourselves. But there isn't. So...like it or not...we are doing it. America is fighting a war.
You've got tools to try and stop it, just like I do (and I'm trying to see it ended)...but sitting in your chair waxing philisophical about how "evil" America is and how "foolish" its people are will not accomplish anything.
Life isn't fair. And we can't all get along. Step out of your bong water haze, blinking into the light of the world and you might see that...hell, live on the streets for a month and you will KNOW it.
It's a pretty picture you are all painting (through implication) and a nice ideal. But it's a goal...and America's growing up. Twenty or Thirty years ago we would be leveling Bagdad by now...and 40-60 years ago we might have been nuking the place. Give us credit for the steps we are making...and stop telling us (just for a while) where we should be. We know, and we are trying...but it's an imperfect world. And no one walks without falling a few times.
WulF-Krigan
P.S. Thank you all for the interesting topics and discusion. Most brain stimulous I've had in a year or so...
Actually you are wrong. The death tolls of the war is 2000-3000 people. I guess you weren't updated on the news.
Did you see the sickening pictures of what the Army has done? Poor little kids are getting their limbs amputated because of this war. Why? Becuase there is not enough medicine and doctors to help these poor little kids.
Its sick to see this and in fact you know the US did not contribute any medical doctors to help the wounded in Iraq.
There is a team of Canadian doctors (Doctors Without borders) that went to Iraq to try and help the innocent. Sure the US sent food but how is that helping the injured? Not much now is it?
I wouldn't believe the news you hear in the US about Canada. I mean even people in the border states with Canada don't know much about Canada themselves!
I mean I could go to Plattsburgh (which is about a 90 min drive) and people think Canadian's live in igloos! Even my friend talked to an american on MSN and they thought the same thing!
Hello??? It's American ignorance that closes one's mind and makes people scared. Do you have plastic wrap and duct tape on your windows?
Killing innocent people is wrong and its worse when hundreds of little kids get hurt because they aren't children anymore they are showing battlescars of a war that didn't have to happen. Their innocence is lost and are suffering tremendously.
The US Govt is at fault and thier stupid little mind games claiming Iraq to be a threat to the US. The only threat to the US is its own Gov'ts actions.
That money could've been spent on helping its own people but I guess the cash was better wasted on something that will probably fail and cost more lives to be lost.
Did you see the sickening pictures of what the Army has done? Poor little kids are getting their limbs amputated because of this war. Why? Becuase there is not enough medicine and doctors to help these poor little kids.
Its sick to see this and in fact you know the US did not contribute any medical doctors to help the wounded in Iraq.
There is a team of Canadian doctors (Doctors Without borders) that went to Iraq to try and help the innocent. Sure the US sent food but how is that helping the injured? Not much now is it?
I wouldn't believe the news you hear in the US about Canada. I mean even people in the border states with Canada don't know much about Canada themselves!
I mean I could go to Plattsburgh (which is about a 90 min drive) and people think Canadian's live in igloos! Even my friend talked to an american on MSN and they thought the same thing!
Hello??? It's American ignorance that closes one's mind and makes people scared. Do you have plastic wrap and duct tape on your windows?
Killing innocent people is wrong and its worse when hundreds of little kids get hurt because they aren't children anymore they are showing battlescars of a war that didn't have to happen. Their innocence is lost and are suffering tremendously.
The US Govt is at fault and thier stupid little mind games claiming Iraq to be a threat to the US. The only threat to the US is its own Gov'ts actions.
That money could've been spent on helping its own people but I guess the cash was better wasted on something that will probably fail and cost more lives to be lost.
Re: Hrmm...
Gibberish at best. Let us disect this little rabble.
We are a free nation because we earned it. America has attacked Canada on three occasions. Each time we booted them out.
In WW1 when America was still at home Canadian troops were fighting and dying while America was getting rich. Almost three full years past before the doughboys made an appearance and by then Canadian troops were kicking the snot out of the Germans.
There was only one army that the Germans feared in WW1 and that was the Canadian. We have earned everything we have, no need for American umbrellas.
More tripe. Guess CNN doesnt tell you about Quebec seperatism or Western greivences. then again I never expected as much. American school books describing the D-Day landings convienantly leave out the fact that five beachheads were attacked - 2 american, 2 British and Free Nations(French, Poles, Norweigans), and 1 Canadian. oops, damn history eh?
Beyond that, Canada has no enemies. Can America say that? While America bombs country into democracies, Canadians open dialogue and trade with them. Gee, which seems to be working better?
So a war is only a war if civilians die? Must be an American thought because here in Canada one dead civilian is one too many.
Where do I begin!! Canada will gain nothing from Americas imperialist attack on Iraq. We have our own oil thank you very much.
BTW we are hardly sitting on the sidelines. WE have thousands of troops in Afghanistan and the Persian Gulf right this minute. Guess CNN doesnt teach you that either eh?
When America comes under increased terror attacks and Canada is left alone because we made the right decision I will be there to remind you of our gain.
Now thats funny. At least in Canada we dont have a one party system where the winners are the ones who spend the most money to get re-elected. Our political systems are nothing alike.
Democrates/Republicans - what is the difference... really?
Why is it that America has the LOWEST voter turnout in the world?
A full 60% of your nation does not even bother to vote. Worse still Dubya was elected president when he did not even get a full 50% plus one. Our elections are legal and fair. Can you say the same?
Well at least you have it part right. Yes american technology has come a long way, but what do you expect from the nation that spends more then the next 25 countries combined on its military!!
Never mind that the economy is in collapse and 40 million americans have no health care and veterans of real wars are about to have the cheques cut. No never mind that, america is trying to grow up.
Is it though?
Some history for you. America is doing the same now as it has always done. Nothing has changed, only the faces and weapons. the illegality of it all is a clone of past actions.
This is just a taste of what they have done around the world:
1899 – 1902
American Genocide of the Philippine People
Estimated civilian deaths: 200,000 people
In 1898 the United States went to war with Spain, taking over the Philippines. America defeated Spain with the help of our allies, the brave Filipino nationalist guerrillas.
The U.S. government had promised independence to them. The U.S. government lied.
In February 1899, the Filipinos rose in revolt against American rule. It took 70,000 American soldiers, marines and sailors three years to brutally crush the rebellion. The death toll of Filipinos was enormous, both from battle casualties and disease.
Hearing of this American genocide, Mark Twain suggested we replace the stars and stripes in our flag with the skull and crossbones.
What happened to the Filipinos that helped America fight the japenese?
The US military fought against the leftist Huk forces even while the Huks were still fighting against the Japanese invaders in the world war.
After the war, the US organized Philippine armed forces to continue the fight against the Huks, finally defeating them and their reform movement. The CIA interfered grossly in elections, installing a series of puppets as president, culminating in the long dictatorship of Ferdinand Marcos, for whom torture was “la specialite de la maison”
1953
American/British Overthrow of Democracy in Iran
Prime Minister Mossadegh was overthrown in a joint US-British operation. Mossadegh had been elected to his position by a large majority of parliament, but he had made the fateful mistake of spearheading the movement to nationalize a British-owned oil company, the sole oil company operating in Iran.
The coup restored the Shah to absolute power, initiating a period of 25 years of repression and torture, while the oil industry was restored to foreign ownership, with the US and Britain each getting 40 percent.
1965
American-backed Genocide of the Indonesian People
Estimated civilian deaths: 500,000 – 1,000,000 people
A complex series of events, involving a supposed coup attempt, a counter-coup, and perhaps a counter-counter-coup, with American fingerprints apparent at various points, resulted in the ouster from power of Sukarno and his replacement by a military coup led by General Suharto. The massacre that began immediately — of Communists, Communist sympathizers, suspected Communists, suspected Communist sympathizers, and none of the above — was called by the New York Times “one of the most savage mass slayings of modern political history.” The estimates of the number killed in the course of a few years begin at half a million and go above a million.
It was later learned that the U.S. embassy had compiled lists of “Communist” operatives, from top echelons down to village cadres, as many as 5,000 names, and turned them over to the army, which then hunted those persons down and killed them. The Americans would then check off the names of those who had been killed or captured.
“It really was a big help to the army. They probably killed a lot of people, and I probably have a lot of blood on my hands,” said one U.S. diplomat. “But that’s not all bad. There’s a time when you have to strike hard at a decisive moment.”
Added note: To this day, Indonesia’s military and police forces continue to be one of America’s best customers for weapons, training, and torture devices.
Still with me? There is much more...
1957 – 1973
American Genocide of the Laotian People
Estimated total civilian deaths: over 500,000 people
The Laotian left, led by the Pathet Lao, tried to effect social change peacefully, making significant electoral gains and taking part in coalition governments. But the United States would have none of that.
The CIA and the State Department, through force, bribery and other pressures, engineered coups in 1958, 1959 and 1960. Eventually, the only option left for the Pathet Lao was armed force.
The CIA created its famous “Arme Clandestine” — totaling 30,000, from every corner of Asia — to do battle, while the US Air Force, between 1965 and 1973, rained down more than two million tons of bombs upon the people of Laos, many of whom were forced to live in caves for years in a desperate attempt to escape the monsters falling from the sky.
After hundreds of thousands had been killed, many more maimed, and countless bombed villages with hardly stone standing upon stone, the Pathet Lao took control of the country, following on the heels of events in Vietnam.
1955 – 1973
American Genocide of the Cambodian People
Estimated total civilian deaths: 1,000,000 – 2,000,000 people
Prince Sihanouk was yet another leader who did not fancy being an American client. After many years of hostility toward his regime, including assassination plots and the infamous Nixon/Kissinger secret “carpet bombings” of 1969-70, Washington finally overthrew Sihanouk in a coup in 1970. This was all that was needed to impel Pol Pot and his Khmer Rouge forces to enter the fray. Five years later, they took power. But the years of American bombing had caused Cambodia’s traditional economy to vanish. The old Cambodia had been destroyed forever.
Incredibly, the Khmer Rouge were to inflict even greater misery upon this unhappy land. And to multiply the irony, the United States supported Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge after their subsequent defeat by the Vietnamese.
1945 – 1974
American Genocide of the Vietnamese People
Estimated total civilian deaths: 2,500,000 – 3,500,000 people
The slippery slope began with the US siding with the French, the former colonizers, and with collaborators with the Japanese, against Ho Chi Minh and his followers, who had worked closely with the Allied war effort and admired all things American.
Ho Chi Minh was, after all, some kind of “communist” (one of those bad-for-you label warnings).
He had written numerous letters to President Truman and the State Department asking for America’s help in winning Vietnamese independence from the French and finding a peaceful solution for his country. All his entreaties were ignored. For he was some kind of communist.
Ho Chi Minh modeled the new Vietnamese declaration of independence on the American, beginning it with “All men are created equal. They are endowed by their Creator with...” But this would count for nothing in Washington. Ho Chi Minh was some kind of communist.
More than twenty years and more than a million dead later, the United States withdrew its military forces from Vietnam. Most people believe that the US lost the war. But by destroying Vietnam to its core, by poisoning the earth, the water and the gene pool for generations, Washington had in fact achieved its primary purpose: preventing what might have been the rise of a good development option for Asia. Ho Chi Minh was, after all, some kind of communist.
Are you still sure America is only looking out for everyones best interests?
How about democratic governments overthrown:
Dominican Republic
Chile
Greece
Nicaragua
Guatemala
Iran
Congo/Zaire
I will not even get into Americas support for dictators such as Saddam and Suharto.
Canada has never acted like this, and never will. The attack on Iraq is another illegal war for american self interests.
WulF-Krigan said:
Gibberish at best. Let us disect this little rabble.
We are a free nation because we earned it. America has attacked Canada on three occasions. Each time we booted them out.
In WW1 when America was still at home Canadian troops were fighting and dying while America was getting rich. Almost three full years past before the doughboys made an appearance and by then Canadian troops were kicking the snot out of the Germans.
There was only one army that the Germans feared in WW1 and that was the Canadian. We have earned everything we have, no need for American umbrellas.
More tripe. Guess CNN doesnt tell you about Quebec seperatism or Western greivences. then again I never expected as much. American school books describing the D-Day landings convienantly leave out the fact that five beachheads were attacked - 2 american, 2 British and Free Nations(French, Poles, Norweigans), and 1 Canadian. oops, damn history eh?
Beyond that, Canada has no enemies. Can America say that? While America bombs country into democracies, Canadians open dialogue and trade with them. Gee, which seems to be working better?
So a war is only a war if civilians die? Must be an American thought because here in Canada one dead civilian is one too many.
Where do I begin!! Canada will gain nothing from Americas imperialist attack on Iraq. We have our own oil thank you very much.
BTW we are hardly sitting on the sidelines. WE have thousands of troops in Afghanistan and the Persian Gulf right this minute. Guess CNN doesnt teach you that either eh?
When America comes under increased terror attacks and Canada is left alone because we made the right decision I will be there to remind you of our gain.
Now thats funny. At least in Canada we dont have a one party system where the winners are the ones who spend the most money to get re-elected. Our political systems are nothing alike.
Democrates/Republicans - what is the difference... really?
Why is it that America has the LOWEST voter turnout in the world?
A full 60% of your nation does not even bother to vote. Worse still Dubya was elected president when he did not even get a full 50% plus one. Our elections are legal and fair. Can you say the same?
Well at least you have it part right. Yes american technology has come a long way, but what do you expect from the nation that spends more then the next 25 countries combined on its military!!
Never mind that the economy is in collapse and 40 million americans have no health care and veterans of real wars are about to have the cheques cut. No never mind that, america is trying to grow up.
Is it though?
Some history for you. America is doing the same now as it has always done. Nothing has changed, only the faces and weapons. the illegality of it all is a clone of past actions.
This is just a taste of what they have done around the world:
1899 – 1902
American Genocide of the Philippine People
Estimated civilian deaths: 200,000 people
In 1898 the United States went to war with Spain, taking over the Philippines. America defeated Spain with the help of our allies, the brave Filipino nationalist guerrillas.
The U.S. government had promised independence to them. The U.S. government lied.
In February 1899, the Filipinos rose in revolt against American rule. It took 70,000 American soldiers, marines and sailors three years to brutally crush the rebellion. The death toll of Filipinos was enormous, both from battle casualties and disease.
Hearing of this American genocide, Mark Twain suggested we replace the stars and stripes in our flag with the skull and crossbones.
What happened to the Filipinos that helped America fight the japenese?
The US military fought against the leftist Huk forces even while the Huks were still fighting against the Japanese invaders in the world war.
After the war, the US organized Philippine armed forces to continue the fight against the Huks, finally defeating them and their reform movement. The CIA interfered grossly in elections, installing a series of puppets as president, culminating in the long dictatorship of Ferdinand Marcos, for whom torture was “la specialite de la maison”
1953
American/British Overthrow of Democracy in Iran
Prime Minister Mossadegh was overthrown in a joint US-British operation. Mossadegh had been elected to his position by a large majority of parliament, but he had made the fateful mistake of spearheading the movement to nationalize a British-owned oil company, the sole oil company operating in Iran.
The coup restored the Shah to absolute power, initiating a period of 25 years of repression and torture, while the oil industry was restored to foreign ownership, with the US and Britain each getting 40 percent.
1965
American-backed Genocide of the Indonesian People
Estimated civilian deaths: 500,000 – 1,000,000 people
A complex series of events, involving a supposed coup attempt, a counter-coup, and perhaps a counter-counter-coup, with American fingerprints apparent at various points, resulted in the ouster from power of Sukarno and his replacement by a military coup led by General Suharto. The massacre that began immediately — of Communists, Communist sympathizers, suspected Communists, suspected Communist sympathizers, and none of the above — was called by the New York Times “one of the most savage mass slayings of modern political history.” The estimates of the number killed in the course of a few years begin at half a million and go above a million.
It was later learned that the U.S. embassy had compiled lists of “Communist” operatives, from top echelons down to village cadres, as many as 5,000 names, and turned them over to the army, which then hunted those persons down and killed them. The Americans would then check off the names of those who had been killed or captured.
“It really was a big help to the army. They probably killed a lot of people, and I probably have a lot of blood on my hands,” said one U.S. diplomat. “But that’s not all bad. There’s a time when you have to strike hard at a decisive moment.”
Added note: To this day, Indonesia’s military and police forces continue to be one of America’s best customers for weapons, training, and torture devices.
Still with me? There is much more...
1957 – 1973
American Genocide of the Laotian People
Estimated total civilian deaths: over 500,000 people
The Laotian left, led by the Pathet Lao, tried to effect social change peacefully, making significant electoral gains and taking part in coalition governments. But the United States would have none of that.
The CIA and the State Department, through force, bribery and other pressures, engineered coups in 1958, 1959 and 1960. Eventually, the only option left for the Pathet Lao was armed force.
The CIA created its famous “Arme Clandestine” — totaling 30,000, from every corner of Asia — to do battle, while the US Air Force, between 1965 and 1973, rained down more than two million tons of bombs upon the people of Laos, many of whom were forced to live in caves for years in a desperate attempt to escape the monsters falling from the sky.
After hundreds of thousands had been killed, many more maimed, and countless bombed villages with hardly stone standing upon stone, the Pathet Lao took control of the country, following on the heels of events in Vietnam.
1955 – 1973
American Genocide of the Cambodian People
Estimated total civilian deaths: 1,000,000 – 2,000,000 people
Prince Sihanouk was yet another leader who did not fancy being an American client. After many years of hostility toward his regime, including assassination plots and the infamous Nixon/Kissinger secret “carpet bombings” of 1969-70, Washington finally overthrew Sihanouk in a coup in 1970. This was all that was needed to impel Pol Pot and his Khmer Rouge forces to enter the fray. Five years later, they took power. But the years of American bombing had caused Cambodia’s traditional economy to vanish. The old Cambodia had been destroyed forever.
Incredibly, the Khmer Rouge were to inflict even greater misery upon this unhappy land. And to multiply the irony, the United States supported Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge after their subsequent defeat by the Vietnamese.
1945 – 1974
American Genocide of the Vietnamese People
Estimated total civilian deaths: 2,500,000 – 3,500,000 people
The slippery slope began with the US siding with the French, the former colonizers, and with collaborators with the Japanese, against Ho Chi Minh and his followers, who had worked closely with the Allied war effort and admired all things American.
Ho Chi Minh was, after all, some kind of “communist” (one of those bad-for-you label warnings).
He had written numerous letters to President Truman and the State Department asking for America’s help in winning Vietnamese independence from the French and finding a peaceful solution for his country. All his entreaties were ignored. For he was some kind of communist.
Ho Chi Minh modeled the new Vietnamese declaration of independence on the American, beginning it with “All men are created equal. They are endowed by their Creator with...” But this would count for nothing in Washington. Ho Chi Minh was some kind of communist.
More than twenty years and more than a million dead later, the United States withdrew its military forces from Vietnam. Most people believe that the US lost the war. But by destroying Vietnam to its core, by poisoning the earth, the water and the gene pool for generations, Washington had in fact achieved its primary purpose: preventing what might have been the rise of a good development option for Asia. Ho Chi Minh was, after all, some kind of communist.
Are you still sure America is only looking out for everyones best interests?
How about democratic governments overthrown:
Dominican Republic
Chile
Greece
Nicaragua
Guatemala
Iran
Congo/Zaire
I will not even get into Americas support for dictators such as Saddam and Suharto.
Canada has never acted like this, and never will. The attack on Iraq is another illegal war for american self interests.
You are entitled to your opinions...
A couple things I am curious about...You make good points though.
But before I get into that two things I'd like to point out.
1: Genocide is the systematic removal of one race. America is not genocidal. This nation has tried to systematically control nations and destroy political regimes, but it is NOT trying to destroy races. Calling it genocide then, would seem to be an attempt to persuade emotionally and not rationally (something america does well). Call them wars, police actions, but genocide is a little over the top...unless your dictionary reads differently than ours.
2: Dating. How far back do you go in a nation's history? I mean, the "true" genocide Americans proliferated was amazingly left out. Or was the slaughter of the Native Americans too dated or just too well known to recite? There has only been ONE genocidal attempt by America, and that was how we treated the Native Americans.
3: Illegal war. What war is legal? I mean, isn't the very nature of a war when no verbal/contractual agreement can succeed and that (at least one) parties believe violence is the only possible solution?
And given that, isn't stating a war is "legal" wrong? Legality implies an agreement or a higher power ruling over what is and is not legal. And if you are saying the UN is the determination of legal and illegal war...well, let a sanction against the "illegal" actions of the USA be brought fourth.
Now onto the points you made.
America's killed many many people over the course of its history. True.
American's do not always do this directly and often do this through (as you put it) puppets. True.
This is a tradgedy. True.
But let's not be naive. Those "puppets" already had a disagreement strong enough to let America "use them". And holding America accountable for those actions is like holding every nation that has contributed to terrorism accountable.
But more importantly, WHY are these wars being faught unconventially with "puppets"?
Generally, it is because America can not get directly involved for either political reasons or because the US is fighting an unconvential foe.
Vietnam. Perfect example.
Many Vietnameese fought convential war with borders and troop and all.
Many also fought covertly. Soldiers in civilian attire. Bombing inderectly in civilian locations to kill military personel.
Also note that if it wasn't for China and Russia using the Vietmaneese as "puppets" to fight America that war would have possibly ended much sooner and much differently.
This is how international politics during the cold war were played out. We did the same thing to Russia when they fought Afganistan.
America persues self interest. This is no new revelation and not much of a secret but what nation does not persue this? If canada was told to surrender or fight, they would fight. Surrender would mean no more Canada, at least not as you now know it. And many Americans believe that if we do not dominate and expoit other contries we will no longer be America. I don't agree with most of these people...but I'm just one person. But I do what I can.
Canada can sit on its high horse and tilt at windmills thinking thier dragons, but that is because whether they see it or not America -is- protecting them. And that safety allows them to play nice with the world. And I'm not saying that that is bad, not by a long shot. But to bash America without providing counterpoints (like say how some of those aweful things did a little good) you stir more patriotism than clear thought. Let me rephrase...if I tell somone everyone of thier bad points and none of thier good they will get emotional and not hear the coments as constructive criticsm but as base slander...and react accordingly...defensively...emotionally.
Canada is great. I love it. I know Canadians hate to hear it because it sounds arrogant but, I think, most Americans think of Canada as the 51st state...or a little brother/sister. If Canada was attacked tommorow you can bet by Thursday our troops would be ready to go. If you doubt that, well, I'm sorry you have such a poor view of your neighbor to the south.
But I'll end this now, the way I've been ending these.
If you have strong views about this American action write and demand you governement do something-anything about it. America is a child. And a child will do what it likes until someone tells it to stop...loudly, proudly, and officially. I vote as I can, and I write politicans to tell them my view and what I want America to do. I just ask you do the same in your country.
Many Americans take democracy for granted and forget those who died to give it to us. Don't do the same with your rights.
A couple things I am curious about...You make good points though.
But before I get into that two things I'd like to point out.
1: Genocide is the systematic removal of one race. America is not genocidal. This nation has tried to systematically control nations and destroy political regimes, but it is NOT trying to destroy races. Calling it genocide then, would seem to be an attempt to persuade emotionally and not rationally (something america does well). Call them wars, police actions, but genocide is a little over the top...unless your dictionary reads differently than ours.
2: Dating. How far back do you go in a nation's history? I mean, the "true" genocide Americans proliferated was amazingly left out. Or was the slaughter of the Native Americans too dated or just too well known to recite? There has only been ONE genocidal attempt by America, and that was how we treated the Native Americans.
3: Illegal war. What war is legal? I mean, isn't the very nature of a war when no verbal/contractual agreement can succeed and that (at least one) parties believe violence is the only possible solution?
And given that, isn't stating a war is "legal" wrong? Legality implies an agreement or a higher power ruling over what is and is not legal. And if you are saying the UN is the determination of legal and illegal war...well, let a sanction against the "illegal" actions of the USA be brought fourth.
Now onto the points you made.
America's killed many many people over the course of its history. True.
American's do not always do this directly and often do this through (as you put it) puppets. True.
This is a tradgedy. True.
But let's not be naive. Those "puppets" already had a disagreement strong enough to let America "use them". And holding America accountable for those actions is like holding every nation that has contributed to terrorism accountable.
But more importantly, WHY are these wars being faught unconventially with "puppets"?
Generally, it is because America can not get directly involved for either political reasons or because the US is fighting an unconvential foe.
Vietnam. Perfect example.
Many Vietnameese fought convential war with borders and troop and all.
Many also fought covertly. Soldiers in civilian attire. Bombing inderectly in civilian locations to kill military personel.
Also note that if it wasn't for China and Russia using the Vietmaneese as "puppets" to fight America that war would have possibly ended much sooner and much differently.
This is how international politics during the cold war were played out. We did the same thing to Russia when they fought Afganistan.
America persues self interest. This is no new revelation and not much of a secret but what nation does not persue this? If canada was told to surrender or fight, they would fight. Surrender would mean no more Canada, at least not as you now know it. And many Americans believe that if we do not dominate and expoit other contries we will no longer be America. I don't agree with most of these people...but I'm just one person. But I do what I can.
Canada can sit on its high horse and tilt at windmills thinking thier dragons, but that is because whether they see it or not America -is- protecting them. And that safety allows them to play nice with the world. And I'm not saying that that is bad, not by a long shot. But to bash America without providing counterpoints (like say how some of those aweful things did a little good) you stir more patriotism than clear thought. Let me rephrase...if I tell somone everyone of thier bad points and none of thier good they will get emotional and not hear the coments as constructive criticsm but as base slander...and react accordingly...defensively...emotionally.
Canada is great. I love it. I know Canadians hate to hear it because it sounds arrogant but, I think, most Americans think of Canada as the 51st state...or a little brother/sister. If Canada was attacked tommorow you can bet by Thursday our troops would be ready to go. If you doubt that, well, I'm sorry you have such a poor view of your neighbor to the south.
But I'll end this now, the way I've been ending these.
If you have strong views about this American action write and demand you governement do something-anything about it. America is a child. And a child will do what it likes until someone tells it to stop...loudly, proudly, and officially. I vote as I can, and I write politicans to tell them my view and what I want America to do. I just ask you do the same in your country.
Many Americans take democracy for granted and forget those who died to give it to us. Don't do the same with your rights.
Actually, genocide by definition is not just the removal of one race... But the murder of a group due to political affiliation, belief, race or ethnic group. So, therefore, it was genocide. In many cases, the Americans would kill anybody who was communist.
Actually, I believe this point has come up somewhere. Canada is not protected by the Americans. We have nothing we need to be protected from.... Ohhh, do you mean the terrorists? or the people we went to war with in the last 60 years? or the enemies we have worldwide? the cubans? the russians? the europeans?
Let me just point out a few:
1. The terrorists: Canada has never had a problem with terrorists. The very root of what the americans call terrorism is the genocide and bombing of innocent civilians -AND- the by assisiting israel in murdering and bombing arabs (it's righting inhabitants) in the illegal state known as Israel.
2. Who we're at war with: Last time Canada waged war on anybody was Germany in 1939, a few days after Britain declared war on the Axis.
3. The enemies we have worldwide: Who would that be? A Canadian passport is considered the best to have in the world.
4. The russians: Welp, as far as I know, we've never had direct problems with Russia. Ofcourse, we are part of NATO and the UN, and at a point in time we allowed Americans to have nuclear missiles on our land. But ofcourse, the Russians are everybody's friend atm.
Care to come up with any enemies Canada has and state how they are a threat we can't deal with? If you can, you've won your arguement that American protects us.
Genocide...
Okay, you are correct. Genocide can be about politics. Live and learn, however, the original context in which genocide was used.
"American Genocide of the Vietnamese People"
In this context the you imply that the Vietnamese people are the object of the genocide. However, it was "communists" who were the object of the genocide. Indeed, America was working with many Vietmanese people while in the nation, and we never tried to kill -those- Vietmanese. A small point and pedantic, but me saying I hate republicans and I hate americans are two different things. In fact, one is true and the other is not.
Communication needs to be clear, or what is the point.
But my key point about the "political umbrella" idea is this...
Given that the US does protect Canada, they have not had a need to make any enemies. Taking action makes you enemies, and where America has taken action Canada (more often than not) has not had to do so...and has profited by looking like the reasonable party. Like an older sibling butting heads with the parents to get the freedom to do what they like, and then thier younger sibling not needing to do so because the barriers of resistance are destroyed. I hope that is more clear.
Illegal state of Isreal? Maybe. But here's the question...If it is illegal, what do we do with all the people who live there? Do you think the Arabs will embrace them? Because to them, that is thier home. I mean, I'm sure there are some Native Americans who think Canadians should get off thier land...but it's not really practicle for you to leave is it? You don't want to do so do you? I'm sure you would fight to keep your home. Maybe you have an answer I do not. Because unlike the Isrealies your ancestors (hundreds of years ago) were not born in Canada.
And what's more...everyone's been saying "illegal". Whether in reference to the state of Isreal, or more commonly, America's and Britian's (lets not forget Spain and Portugal) war with Iraq. But who is setting this determination of legality? I mean, honestly...are you refering to the UN? Or just morality? Or is it Canadian law? I'm at a loss to sort out what agency is deeming this illegal. Is a war only legal when both sides agree? Is there some older treaty in which this is outlined and I am not aware of it? I just want to know the basis of calling it "illegal".
Stretch...I just want to say thank you. You statements are an excelent example of my next point.
Why does conflict start? According to Marx conflict exists when there is a devision between two groups and that devisions is deemed important.
But a key component to making those differences "important" is dogma, propaganda, but most importantly...a break down of communication.
If you decide you don't want to speak about these ideas don't read/post in a thread about them. It's a huge internet...but to come into a medium of open (if imperfect) communication between people and advocating "ignoring" others. You put a barrier in communication. And if you stop communciation you, in effect, propote conflict.
I'm personally learning quite a bit from this thread. And while I may reflexively counteragrue this is a natural thing. When someone questions our paradigms we experience disonance. A reaction to disonance is to reinforce our own paradigm. But little by little I sort out which ideas are, for me, better. I'm learning and thankful to everyone who's posted in here for giving me pause for thought. And I hope, if only a little, you can understand better where Americans are coming from even if you disagree.
Now...use your democracy! Vote!!! If you think America is wrong get your government to state it. Because, I think the perceptions of many Americans is that Canada isn't -with- us, but that they don't mind what we are doing.
W-K
P.S.:
"by responding to their idiotic rant guys you fall into their trap
tis best to ingnore........remember, negative energy attracts negative energy.......
dont even acknowledge they exist...that really hurts them....."
Umm...who are "thier", "they", and "them"? I feel pretty much like the only American here right now. But I could be wrong.
Okay, you are correct. Genocide can be about politics. Live and learn, however, the original context in which genocide was used.
"American Genocide of the Vietnamese People"
In this context the you imply that the Vietnamese people are the object of the genocide. However, it was "communists" who were the object of the genocide. Indeed, America was working with many Vietmanese people while in the nation, and we never tried to kill -those- Vietmanese. A small point and pedantic, but me saying I hate republicans and I hate americans are two different things. In fact, one is true and the other is not.
Communication needs to be clear, or what is the point.
But my key point about the "political umbrella" idea is this...
Given that the US does protect Canada, they have not had a need to make any enemies. Taking action makes you enemies, and where America has taken action Canada (more often than not) has not had to do so...and has profited by looking like the reasonable party. Like an older sibling butting heads with the parents to get the freedom to do what they like, and then thier younger sibling not needing to do so because the barriers of resistance are destroyed. I hope that is more clear.
Illegal state of Isreal? Maybe. But here's the question...If it is illegal, what do we do with all the people who live there? Do you think the Arabs will embrace them? Because to them, that is thier home. I mean, I'm sure there are some Native Americans who think Canadians should get off thier land...but it's not really practicle for you to leave is it? You don't want to do so do you? I'm sure you would fight to keep your home. Maybe you have an answer I do not. Because unlike the Isrealies your ancestors (hundreds of years ago) were not born in Canada.
And what's more...everyone's been saying "illegal". Whether in reference to the state of Isreal, or more commonly, America's and Britian's (lets not forget Spain and Portugal) war with Iraq. But who is setting this determination of legality? I mean, honestly...are you refering to the UN? Or just morality? Or is it Canadian law? I'm at a loss to sort out what agency is deeming this illegal. Is a war only legal when both sides agree? Is there some older treaty in which this is outlined and I am not aware of it? I just want to know the basis of calling it "illegal".
Stretch...I just want to say thank you. You statements are an excelent example of my next point.
Why does conflict start? According to Marx conflict exists when there is a devision between two groups and that devisions is deemed important.
But a key component to making those differences "important" is dogma, propaganda, but most importantly...a break down of communication.
If you decide you don't want to speak about these ideas don't read/post in a thread about them. It's a huge internet...but to come into a medium of open (if imperfect) communication between people and advocating "ignoring" others. You put a barrier in communication. And if you stop communciation you, in effect, propote conflict.
I'm personally learning quite a bit from this thread. And while I may reflexively counteragrue this is a natural thing. When someone questions our paradigms we experience disonance. A reaction to disonance is to reinforce our own paradigm. But little by little I sort out which ideas are, for me, better. I'm learning and thankful to everyone who's posted in here for giving me pause for thought. And I hope, if only a little, you can understand better where Americans are coming from even if you disagree.
Now...use your democracy! Vote!!!
If you think America is wrong get your government to state it. Because, I think the perceptions of many Americans is that Canada isn't -with- us, but that they don't mind what we are doing. W-K
P.S.:
"by responding to their idiotic rant guys you fall into their trap
tis best to ingnore........remember, negative energy attracts negative energy.......
dont even acknowledge they exist...that really hurts them....."
Umm...who are "thier", "they", and "them"? I feel pretty much like the only American here right now. But I could be wrong.
WulF-Krigan, you bring up some good points.. But as myself and others have laid out in previous messages, you really gotta lose the idea that Canada is protected by the United States.... from some unknown, unseen and unheard of alien spaceship hovering around the earth's atmosphere. Get real! What do you propose the Americans are protecting Canada from? IF we really were protected by something from the americans, I would admit it... But we arent.
Now! If we were aiding Israel and arming them to the teeth with weapons to murder it's original palestinian inhabitants, I would say, Yes! The americans are protecting us. Because such a repressed people as the palestinians and their arab 'brothers' will do anything to get revenge. Including a day like Sept. 11th.
We live in a peace-time era, it's peace-time for us. If there was another world war, I'm sure Canada would be arming it's self and I'm quite sure a lot of Canadians would volunteer for military service. Just like WWI and WWII. Ofcourse, times change.. And they are a-changing.
</The US Protects Canada>
Next point...
This is an illegal war.
Yes, I believe it is. Some people believe the UN does not have a say in anything. But they really really do. It's their job to determine if a country is doing something intentionally to destroy a people, disrupt the world's peace, and goto war for pure monetary gain.
As a member-country of the United Nations, a Canadian officer of the law could arrest President Bush because what he's doing right now can be and is considered illegal. He had an option, and he decided to go the wrong path (IMHO) and use arms to take down an enemy, and take his stake of the world's richest oil fields... which is some 10% of the world's oil supply.
I suggest you put on your thinking cap now and put the peices of the puzzle together. Ask yourself, "Hmmm, did the president have a choice? What were his choices? Does IRAQ really have that much oil? Does he hate arabs because of September 11th and the fact he's ultra-religious?"
I have not read every single document of the UN relating to war crimes and illegal intentions. But I am aware that any member country could arrest him because of what he's done.
**PS: WulF-Krigan, I think you bring some good points and some of them are arguably right from some points of view. **
Now! If we were aiding Israel and arming them to the teeth with weapons to murder it's original palestinian inhabitants, I would say, Yes! The americans are protecting us. Because such a repressed people as the palestinians and their arab 'brothers' will do anything to get revenge. Including a day like Sept. 11th.
We live in a peace-time era, it's peace-time for us. If there was another world war, I'm sure Canada would be arming it's self and I'm quite sure a lot of Canadians would volunteer for military service. Just like WWI and WWII. Ofcourse, times change.. And they are a-changing.
</The US Protects Canada>
Next point...
This is an illegal war.
Yes, I believe it is. Some people believe the UN does not have a say in anything. But they really really do. It's their job to determine if a country is doing something intentionally to destroy a people, disrupt the world's peace, and goto war for pure monetary gain.
As a member-country of the United Nations, a Canadian officer of the law could arrest President Bush because what he's doing right now can be and is considered illegal. He had an option, and he decided to go the wrong path (IMHO) and use arms to take down an enemy, and take his stake of the world's richest oil fields... which is some 10% of the world's oil supply.
I suggest you put on your thinking cap now and put the peices of the puzzle together. Ask yourself, "Hmmm, did the president have a choice? What were his choices? Does IRAQ really have that much oil? Does he hate arabs because of September 11th and the fact he's ultra-religious?"
I have not read every single document of the UN relating to war crimes and illegal intentions. But I am aware that any member country could arrest him because of what he's done.
**PS: WulF-Krigan, I think you bring some good points and some of them are arguably right from some points of view. **
What kind of actions has Canada not had to make decisions on? Your thinking like we are the 51st state.
We supply your state of California with hydro power. We supply the US with it's Uranium, oil, natural gas and lumber.
I'm thinking this is not an umbrella under the US. It would seem that both our hands are holding it up.
http://csmweb2.emcweb.com/durable/1999/08/11/p10s3.htm
Attacks may be made solely against military targets. Parties to a conflict must distinguish between civilians and combatants, and civilians may not be attacked. (They just bombed a restaurant last night because they "believed" Suddam was there" Smart bombs (that aren't) are killing more civilians then combatants (don't believe me, check our amnesty international, Hilla massacre)
Weapons and methods of warfare likely to cause unnecessary losses or excessive suffering, or severe or long-term damage to the environment, may not be used (see smartbombs)
Side note: Find this and had to laugh. The US backed out of the International Courts Tribunal, for fear that it's own soldiers would be taken to task for war crimes. Now their gathering evidence against the Iraqi's for war crimes. Pot/ kettle syndrome at it's horrific best
http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/rights/law/03040303.htm
"As a member-country of the United Nations, a Canadian officer of the law could arrest President Bush because what he's doing right now can be and is considered illegal."
Hrmm...I suppose you are true. But by the same token, an American could punch the prime minister of Canada. There are many -coulds-. But that in and of itself isn't an arguement...more me just... :lol:
Anyhow. I admit Bush could be brought before a UN tribunal. But, in the end it would be a vote if he -should- be brought before the UN. And the likely response would be a US veto. And thus...it isn't likely to happen.
Legality and illegality are and will always be, like insanity, a matter of social acceptablility.
A rich man gives away his money he's a philanthophist.
A poor man does the same and he's just nuts.
Now...onto the Geneva Convention!
War has "rules". Those 'rules' seperate a civilized war from a slaughter.
Among them are rules that armies must select out military targets from non-military targets. And it was in Vietnam where the world learned that the best way to beat the US is not to fight the US directly. Putting a uniform on your soldiers is putting a target on them. The inderect soldier is a much more effective tool because not only does the geneva convention give your enemy pause it also provides a brilliant spotlight for accusation.
Now, in the calling "smart bombs" a violation of the Geneva convention...well, I mean really...are you serrious? A weapon designed to deliver explosives more precisely and accurately than older modled ordinance is a violation of the Geneva Convention? I'll disagree, but you see our opinions on this are rather irrellevent.
Law, any law, is subject to interpretation. And in the end, more often than not, with rules of war the victor is the one who gets to interpret who broke what rules.
Now, has the US violated the Geneva Convention? I'm not really sure, didn't see any of it. I was at home. Like you. Has Iraq violated the convention? Again not sure. I'll let others who are there and who are given that job determine what exactly happened. But that's me. I'd guess it went both ways. USA violated and Iraq violated. I'd guess the USA did it to try for a faster resolution and to save lives in the long run. I'd also guess Iraq did it to have a better chance to fight off the USA. But I'm an amature and not in the military...so those are just guesses. But between them, I think the USA's reason was only slightly better than Iraqs.
W-K
P.S. Note: I didn't get into the "who broke what rule first" routine.
Hrmm...I suppose you are true. But by the same token, an American could punch the prime minister of Canada. There are many -coulds-. But that in and of itself isn't an arguement...more me just... :lol:
Anyhow. I admit Bush could be brought before a UN tribunal. But, in the end it would be a vote if he -should- be brought before the UN. And the likely response would be a US veto. And thus...it isn't likely to happen.
Legality and illegality are and will always be, like insanity, a matter of social acceptablility.
A rich man gives away his money he's a philanthophist.
A poor man does the same and he's just nuts.
Now...onto the Geneva Convention!
War has "rules". Those 'rules' seperate a civilized war from a slaughter.
Among them are rules that armies must select out military targets from non-military targets. And it was in Vietnam where the world learned that the best way to beat the US is not to fight the US directly. Putting a uniform on your soldiers is putting a target on them. The inderect soldier is a much more effective tool because not only does the geneva convention give your enemy pause it also provides a brilliant spotlight for accusation.
Now, in the calling "smart bombs" a violation of the Geneva convention...well, I mean really...are you serrious? A weapon designed to deliver explosives more precisely and accurately than older modled ordinance is a violation of the Geneva Convention? I'll disagree, but you see our opinions on this are rather irrellevent.
Law, any law, is subject to interpretation. And in the end, more often than not, with rules of war the victor is the one who gets to interpret who broke what rules.
Now, has the US violated the Geneva Convention? I'm not really sure, didn't see any of it. I was at home. Like you. Has Iraq violated the convention? Again not sure. I'll let others who are there and who are given that job determine what exactly happened. But that's me. I'd guess it went both ways. USA violated and Iraq violated. I'd guess the USA did it to try for a faster resolution and to save lives in the long run. I'd also guess Iraq did it to have a better chance to fight off the USA. But I'm an amature and not in the military...so those are just guesses. But between them, I think the USA's reason was only slightly better than Iraqs.
W-K
P.S. Note: I didn't get into the "who broke what rule first" routine.
I the use of Depleted Uranium a crime?
Depleted Uranium -
A Killer Disaster
By Travis Dunn
Disaster News.net
12-29-2
http://rense.com/general33/depl.htm
Clear And Irrefutable Proof The US Government Planed And Executed Genocidal Acts Against The Iraqi People
03/13/03
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2108.htm
Depleted Uranium -
A Killer Disaster
By Travis Dunn
Disaster News.net
12-29-2
http://rense.com/general33/depl.htm
Clear And Irrefutable Proof The US Government Planed And Executed Genocidal Acts Against The Iraqi People
03/13/03
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2108.htm
And yesterdays attack on the restaurant in Baghdad is a clear violation of a few articles of the Geneva Convention.
BTW, when Bush gets Bushwacked when he comes to Canada and is flown off to the Haque it will the ICC and not the UN that will try him as a war criminal.
Why do you think he and Kissinger are not leaving home lately?
BTW, when Bush gets Bushwacked when he comes to Canada and is flown off to the Haque it will the ICC and not the UN that will try him as a war criminal.
Why do you think he and Kissinger are not leaving home lately?
Stretch said:
Not likely. Too many in Canada are scared of the repercussions that would fly fast and furious. Like little children the american government will throw a tantrum at Canada.
We will have to wait for bush to be de-throned first.
I was in wishful thinking mode.
Stretch said:
It might be allowed by some.. But I think Bush's bodyguards and the RCMP would have something to say about it. Its doubtful he would be arrested.. But ofcourse, if after he becomes de-throwned as czardogs says, its quite possible he could be arrested while on vacation.... Still, even then, it would be quite hard to do.