Pondering Failure in Iraq

[jimmoyer]

That's true Curiosity.
Still, but some of the criticism is definitely valid, even if uneven in its one-sidedness, even if
the motivation behind it is not thought through by those advocates, those claiming to be driven by
logic than by emotion as the prime driver, when they selectively ignore other worse culprits,
and are more energized by any United States hypocrisy.

Sometimes we get the truth from suspect sources, sometimes from those with wrong motivations.

Maybe truth can only be approximated by adversarial battle.

Can it be found by those who agree ?

(Pardon my stiff holier than thou response. Yee Gads ! I just read what I wrote !!!)

 

[Curiosity]

Hi Jim - you are correct of course and I appreciate the calming words...

There is however a duality to criticism from others:

The negative - such as a cranky father - with a new reason to nag each day - some important and some irrelevant...but very little constructive advice.

The positive - such as a cousin (I would hope) might do - saying "you are on your own - it's a tragic mistake but if your government wants to try it out - Godspeed."

Nobody is asking Canada to take part in the insanity.... but everyone seems to be having wet diapers over it...or resounding glee at the imminent failure.

And of course 90% of my opinion is how I read it.... which may be totally untrue. Still it rankles.

 

[mabudon]

There is a word for schadenfreude for a reason tho

Some folks honestly had GREAT reservations about the debacle in the Middle East and were shouted down in a flood of flag waving patriotism... now that things turned out EXACTLY the way some folks said they would, these same folks are demonized for having been right all along (I know, I'm one of them)

The exercise in Iraq was a stupid fabric of lies from the outset, and it's funny to watch a liar as his story unravels, IMO

As for a "common sollution", well, I can't see the need for one in this case. We'll be here domestically for our friends to the south, and it's not like I've turned my back on my many friends in the US. BUT that being said I AM glad that the giant has been kicked HARD in the stones and might actually have to begin using brains and openness instead of secrecy lies and brutality

And it really IS about the Oil, check out the to-be-tabled, brand spanking new Iraq Hydrocarbon Laws, they should be signed before Dubya gives his "Sacrifice" speech tomorrow night so the "victory" which is oft referenced but never publically defined will have, infact, finally been accomplaished- too bad the people of the US and people the world over don't get a cut- the sacrifice is shared (well, imposed really) but the spoils, not so much

 

[Curiosity]

Mabudon

Agreed - you certainly put the word to good use in your post - as the Germanic terminology has been adopted quite well by Canadians these days.

Of course anyone who finds Couric worth quoting....leaves me room for a smirk and a giggle....sorry

And the gap grows on....

 

[mabudon]

LOL I really don't support Katie Couric at ALL, I don't even get any channels where I might accidentally chance upon her, but the damn quote was too good to pass up, really sums up this topic, even, quite well

And Germanic Terminology?? I just have some friends who live in Germany and actually end up running across a lot of German words, their English is MUCH better than my German (LEAGUES better) but they still hit on stuff that they don't quite have the words for

I just had to highlight how this sort of grim satisfaction (and agreed, some folks are exhibiting more of a glee but I can't go along exactly) is, in some cases, based more on having been called a fool and a traitor for stating facts- now as the facts present themselves, it is STILL impossible for most apologists to come close to saying "gee, you were right"- this is where the schadenfreude really kicks in for me, watching someone outright REFUSE to come to terms with the hard reality, and instead clumsily try to cantilever one failure after another into some sort of structure- I have seen MANY more right-leaning folks use the term "GET OVER YOURSELVES" on this board and find it pretty darkly funny that when the time comes for those types to do just that, their constantly offered "solution" is the one thing they cannot do, I dunno, I have a warped sense of humour but I am not a bad person, or a hateful one

 

[talloola]

Hey Hey Hey NOW!

I saw it on CNN so it's got to be true...

Beneath a huge banner strung across the bridge of a U.S. aircraft carrier that read "Mission Accomplished" Mr. Bush declared an end to hostilities in Iraq...it's over....we won....ticker-tape parades and champagne all around

wasn't that picture on the aircraft carrier sickening? I mentioned once before that at that moment, they
should have stuck George Bush in the end of one of those missiles, and sent him into space.

 

[earth_as_one]

Most Canadians like most Americans we know on a personal level. I travel extensively in the US and I find most Americans to be kind, charitable, big hearted, but maybe a little too full of the "God Bless America" and the "Support the President right or wrong" mentality.

Most Canadians dislike the current American government and its foreign policies, not the American people. Most Canadians required less time to see through the Bush regime BS propaganda because we have our own BS propaganda. Today a majority of Canadians and Americans loath the Bush regime. That means we actually have more in common than we did in 2003 when most Americans rallied behind Bush's illegal plan to invade Iraq in order to acquire control of Iraq's oil wealth for his oil buddies.

The reason why Canadians figured Bush out sooner than most Americans is that we aren't as subjected to as much pro- "death and destruction" propaganda as our southern neighbors.

I am proud that our Canadian leaders had ethical problems supporting an unprovoked invasion on a country based on unsubstatiated allegations. Our leaders may be corrupt (sponsorship scandal), but they aren't cold blooded killers.

Tamarin,

Canadians don't fear a US invasion. In fact as this map clearly shows, millions of Canadians have positioned themselves near the American border:

http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=70010&rendTypeId=4

This could be preparation for a massive Canadian invasion of the US. Need I remind you that the last time Canadians fought Americans, we kicked your butts! Not only did the American invasion fail, but we retaliated by burning down the Whitehouse.

Don't tempt us. If your beer was better, millions of Canadians massing on the American border might have already invaded.

Seriously though, the reason why the US is a powerful nation is partly due to the fact that Canada and the US share the world's longest undefended border. If we were feuding, Americans wouldn't have the resources to invade countries like Vietnam and Iraq or launch clandestine wars in places like Nicaragua and Cuba....

Canada plays a significant role in American defense. Canada is an equal partner in NORAD.

The US would have had a lot more touble building nukes in the first place without Canada's help. Nearly all the uranium used in the Manhattan project came from Canada. Many Manhattan scientists and engineers were Canadian. At the end of WW II Canada was the number 3 military power after the US and the USSR.

Today the US nuclear weapons program gets a significant amount of its heavy water (deutrium and and tritium required to build H-bombs) from Canada. Canada could have built nuclear weapons very soon after the US, but we chose to support the Manhattan project instead. Your comments indicate this may have been a mistake. Maybe Canada should start building nuclear weapons and point them at the US to defend against the possibility that someone with your mentality might end up in the Whitehouse one day. Is that your vision of future Canada/US relations?

By the way, many components used by American military systems are built in Canada. The cruise missile guidance system is one example.

 

[Curiosity]

Earthasone

LOL you couldn't even get through the first paragraph without a criticism...and yes: you could be wrong.
Heard all the arguments before - and it started long before Bush was elected....it used to be sort of a vague energy/bovine/softwood/foreign policy kind of nag.... now you have Bush...

The topics change but the critics go on.... When I lived in Vancouver I had as many friends in Washington as I did in B.C. initiated from skiing at Baker and Mt. Hood....if I had seen what was down the road between the two nations I would have suggested we all migrate elsewhere....

Amazing how the divide gets larger every year. It is not in Canada's best interests at all.

 

[earth_as_one]

No feuding is not in either of our interests.

But Canadians did not support Vietnam, nor did we support Iraq. Turns out we we right in both cases.

Also Canada has never lost a war. That may be luck, but also maybe because we have chosen our battles more wisely than our American neighbors.

 

[Curiosity]

Earth

My god this isn't a contest of "who gets loved best by the world".... is that what you are implying?

If Canada stays out of things and preaches pacifism (or cut and run) to the the U.S. they are doing the best for the international community?

Well we get all opinions....

 

[fuzzylogix]

I apologize to the membership for posting the article....

It would seem the U.S. are disallowed from error by their northern cousins - and while I entertain the fantasy that we are interchangeable as nations, both having each other's existence, health and wealth
at a common level of protective caring.... it would seem over the past say ten years since I have been
a surpised viewer of Canadian unedited thought - Canadians really do not like the people to the south..
even to the point I carefully step around using the word "American" for that has also been criticized
roundly.

It think it is a small kind of attitude.... more like the Europeans are always playing but they are old and failing nations.... perhaps Canada wishes the United States to fail as well......

The U.S. will never have that Euro attitude - that selfish for me kind of crap - and it is why I choose to
live and participate in whatever dreams each succeeding U.S. government has and leads me into. For participation is welcomed and sought - each of us having a voice either locally or nationally.

I enjoy the feeling of belonging to a nation who choose action (whether right or wrong) instead of passive critique.

Again and again. It is not the American citizens we dont like. It is American policy. Unfortunately for the world, however it is American citizens who are responsible for voting for American policy.

Ah- the point of democracy is that you dont just accept verbatim whatever the government chooses. You should be living and participating in the dreams that you and your countrymen vote for.

And Europe is no longer old and failing. Spain has overtaken Canada in the G7.

 

[I think not]

Most Canadians like most Americans we know on a personal level. I travel extensively in the US and I find most Americans to be kind, charitable, big hearted, but maybe a little too full of the "God Bless America" and the "Support the President right or wrong" mentality.

Most Canadians dislike the current American government and its foreign policies, not the American people. Most Canadians required less time to see through the Bush regime BS propaganda because we have our own BS propaganda. Today a majority of Canadians and Americans loath the Bush regime. That means we actually have more in common than we did in 2003 when most Americans rallied behind Bush's illegal plan to invade Iraq in order to acquire control of Iraq's oil wealth for his oil buddies.

The reason why Canadians figured Bush out sooner than most Americans is that we aren't as subjected to as much pro- "death and destruction" propaganda as our southern neighbors.

I am proud that our Canadian leaders had ethical problems supporting an unprovoked invasion on a country based on unsubstatiated allegations. Our leaders may be corrupt (sponsorship scandal), but they aren't cold blooded killers.

Tamarin,

Canadians don't fear a US invasion. In fact as this map clearly shows, millions of Canadians have positioned themselves near the American border:

http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=70010&rendTypeId=4

This could be preparation for a massive Canadian invasion of the US. Need I remind you that the last time Canadians fought Americans, we kicked your butts! Not only did the American invasion fail, but we retaliated by burning down the Whitehouse.

Don't tempt us. If your beer was better, millions of Canadians massing on the American border might have already invaded.

Seriously though, the reason why the US is a powerful nation is partly due to the fact that Canada and the US share the world's longest undefended border. If we were feuding, Americans wouldn't have the resources to invade countries like Vietnam and Iraq or launch clandestine wars in places like Nicaragua and Cuba....

Canada plays a significant role in American defense. Canada is an equal partner in NORAD.

The US would have had a lot more touble building nukes in the first place without Canada's help. Nearly all the uranium used in the Manhattan project came from Canada. Many Manhattan scientists and engineers were Canadian. At the end of WW II Canada was the number 3 military power after the US and the USSR.

Today the US nuclear weapons program gets a significant amount of its heavy water (deutrium and and tritium required to build H-bombs) from Canada. Canada could have built nuclear weapons very soon after the US, but we chose to support the Manhattan project instead. Your comments indicate this may have been a mistake. Maybe Canada should start building nuclear weapons and point them at the US to defend against the possibility that someone with your mentality might end up in the Whitehouse one day. Is that your vision of future Canada/US relations?

By the way, many components used by American military systems are built in Canada. The cruise missile guidance system is one example.

This sounds like something you would hear on CBC Radio, during Canadian Content "time".

 

[talloola]

Earthasone

LOL you couldn't even get through the first paragraph without a criticism...and yes: you could be wrong.
Heard all the arguments before - and it started long before Bush was elected....it used to be sort of a vague energy/bovine/softwood/foreign policy kind of nag.... now you have Bush...

George Bush has "earned" the criticism, it isn't "just" because he is the u.s. president. He has embarrassed his citisens by being a very "ignorant" president", I have enjoyed many u.s. presidents
but I feel very uncomfortable for the u.s people because of this president. I am not a u.s. basher,
and never have been.

 

[talloola]

Canadians can crow all they want but they'd easily be overrun if the US wasn't there to save them.
If the u.s. wasn't there to save us, our present situation would be much different, as we would have
built our own defence, we would have no other choice,as it is at present, there is no need to, we can depend on them, sure saves us billions, and lots of responsibility, we can sit here like goody goodies,
and let them take all the responsibility, and criticism, and make the mistakes.

I wouldn't doubt the least countries such as Russia or China have contingency plans for a Canadian invasion. It would be a cakewalk. All that's needed is a weak, vacillating US.
Those countries aren't interested in an invasion on Canada, if the u.s. couldn't help us. There is many
countries china and russia could invade if they so desired, but they don't. China is more interested in
moving here, and maybe in about 200 yrs. they will be the majority in this country, that is one peacfull
way they can take over Canada.
.
We have a great deal invested in the US winning in Iraq
The u.s. has done a great deal to destroy Iraq and hurt it's people, so they "better" stay there and try
to fix many of the problems "they" caused. Saddam Hussein was a horrible leader, but just because
the u.s. can say they got rid of him, doesn't take away the fact that they have made that country
worse in other ways than "he" did.

 

[gopher]

'''George Bush has "earned" the criticism'''

Over 70 % of the USA population has indicated its disagreement with Bush's war. Some people on this forum insist that the war must continue and it is their right to voice their opinion. But what they need to understand is that just because someone criticizes the war, it does not mean they are anti-American.

We who oppose Bush's war are the majority. Like or not, in a democracy we are the ones whose opinion matters the most.

 

[I think not]

We who oppose Bush's war are the majority. Like or not, in a democracy we are the ones whose opinion matters the most.

That's fine, but you don't live in a democracy.

And just out of curiosity gopher, pulling out and leaving Iraq the mess that it is accomplishes what exactly? Your opinion please.

 

[mabudon]

Just a link to something that is germaine to this conversation

[SIZE=-1] http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/01/08/iraq-oil.html

See, "victory" is being acomplished- I'm sure some Canadians will profit on some level by this new "law", good thing the US set Iraq up in such a way as to to have both hands firmly on the wheel

And Curiousity, I think you might be playing a little too hard on this "THE DIVIDE" stuff, way I see it the main divide in this topic is folks who believe what they're told and folks who actually try to gather facts and form conclusions themselves- I know plenty of folks from the US, as who- Gopher?? pointed out, see the mess with exactly the same eyes as myself, and smell the same stink- is this "divide" you speak of actually between left and right in both countries?? I am being serious, you are quite cryptic about it leading me to believe it is some fantasy construct that you enjoy perpetuating, hoping one day it will become real for some odd reason
[/SIZE]

 

[Curiosity]

Mabudon

You have no idea how shocked I am about the Canadian feelings towards the U.S. It hit me like a ton of bricks ten years ago when I first joined a Canadian forum.

The demeaning attitude has escalated. Canadians define themselves as "not American" whatever that is.

I am a Canadian - have been all my life - although I am changing my status because I choose to remain in the U.S., and feel it is appropriate because it is here where I work and pay taxes.

I do not want a divide or separation. I see it as a future detriment to the health of Canada having a close, easily accessible commodities trading partner.... do you not? Who do you prefer?

Your "read" on me and your take that I do not study the sources of information is way off. I do not deal in fantasy. That is for fools. It is in all of our interests to keep the concept of allied nations working together for our futures and for eventual peace (if such a thing is ever possible).

Perhaps you are not privy to the many outlets here for information rather than the biased sources your limited media offer. As I wrote yesterday - your quoting Couric makes me wonder.

But it is your very right to criticize me for how you see my behavior here. You would be wrong. It is unimportant to me to try to make a case for defense of my opinions.

 

[mabudon]

Curiousity- the quote is George Dubya Bush, he just happened to say it on that show, as I pointed out yesterday and as you could tell if you actually read the whote and attribution rather than just saw the name you don't like and tried to use it as some sort of slight against my posts (which usually don't rely on the signature quote, I just put stuff I think is kinda funny as my signature jsut cos it's fun)

And "limited media"??? As far as I know the Internet is pretty much uncensored up here where I live, so unless you have access to a bigger internet than I do, you ain't on some pedestal lookin down, so cut the "maybe you don't have access" crap, I don't have "access" to the mindset of those who would believe exactly what they are dictated and I am pretty proud of and thankful for that

And I don't get where anything I have ever posted here would make anyone imagine that I was proposing some kind of split with the US- I mean, simple geography makes that totally ludicrous. I just think that the juggernaut that is the US needs to be taken down a few pegs for everyones sake, including the citizens of the US itself.

"allied nations working together" will only happen when no single nation has a monopoly on power and I think the humbling of the US will be a good step in this direction, so technically we are both agreed on the ideal course for humanity, we just disagree a bunch on how "allied nations" should "work together" and what they should be doing in this endeavour

 

[Curiosity]

Mabudon

So you think the humbling of the U.S. will serve Canadians well? That's pretty insecure of you - last time I looked Canada and Canadians stand alone very well regardless of what happened down south.

When I moved to the U.S. there was a distinct feeling of goodwill towards Canada from any of the people down here who found out I came from Canada.... many of them have travelled to B.C. and parts east because of my sharing of information....they all loved Canada...

In the past five years....I don't mention Canada much now... and read much in the media which I can only take as mixed or unpleasant feelings towards Canada by the people here..... this is not a good thing for any nation, despite you feel it is all the fault of the people in the U.S. In some places Canada is disliked intensely as a pacifist critic. You don't want to cut off your benefits to the economy through trade with the U.S. until you have secured more "likeable" and "satisfactory" international partners....

I guess the U.S. could isolate and leave the rest of the world hang couldn't it? No money - no defense - no protection - you seem to quantify your critique only on the defense and offense military efforts by the U.S. rather than the good they do in the world.

Typical....