Plane shot down,Malaysia seems to have bigger problems they might not be telling us

[Blackleaf]

You posted a link to it, little to late to claim you want nothing further to do with it after viewing it.
It can't be any worse than the guy wandering around his own back yard picking up the remains of his mother who was killed by artillery fire. You only need to see it once and without that one time you wouldn't have a idea of why the guy was so ****ing upset.

I watched it ages ago before I posted the link. I've watched it a few times now. Still horrific though.

I remember when I was a kid in the early Nineties and some guy committed suicide by blowing himself up with a homemade bomb in a neighbourhood in the Little Lever area of my town, near to my school. People found fingers in their rosebushes in their gardens and there were other body parts strewn about. Even weeks afterwards people were still retrieving bits of him.

 

[#juan]

I don't think there is any doubt that the Malaysian airliner was shot down by so called pro-Russian rebels. This is where the UN could be useful. These ***-holes are playing games with the bodies.......If Putin has any influence over these jerks it is time he used it. An international force is needed but nothing will happen without Russian approval

 

[Blackleaf]

EXCLUSIVE: Heathrow worker, 29, who left UK to fight with pro-Russian rebels says Ukraine and the West shot down MH17 to smear Russia

Working in the UK: Aijo is pictured above on a construction site at Heathrow Terminal 2, where he worked

​

Beness Aijo, 29, has ties to the soldiers in control of the eastern region of Ukraine from which the surface-to-air missile which shot down the Malaysia Airlines flight, killing all 298 on board, was fired. He is pictured above in a high-vis jacket working on the renovation of Heathrow Terminal 2, and below, holding a riot shield marked in Russian colours. He has links to high-ranking political figures in Putin's regime, and has been pictured shaking hands with aide Andrew Kovalenko. The student and father-of-one lived in London for years and attended Birkbeck University in the capital.

Fighter: Aijo, right, was also pictured holding a riot shield painted in the colours of the Russian flat and a stick

Read more: Beness Aijo, Heathrow worker who left UK to join rebels, has MH17 theory | Mail Online
*******************************************


Putin given 48 hour ultimatum to let investigators probe MH17 crash site, as Britain, Germany and France say they are 'ready' to hit Russia with fresh sanctions

PM spoke with Angela Merkel and Francois Hollande this morning
Leaders agreed the EU needed to be prepared to hit Russia with sanctions
European foreign ministers set to meet in Brussels on Tuesday
PM earlier accused EU of showing lack of 'resolve' over Ukrainian crisis
Cameron also likened crisis to Europe's appeasement of Hitler in the 1930s
New Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond said Russia had to 'dramatically' change its behaviour
Foreign Secretary to chair emergency Cobra meeting at 1pm today
The Prime Minister is expected to call Vladimir Putin this evening

By Tom Mctague, Mail Online Deputy Political Editor
20 July 2014
Daily Mail


Britain, France and Germany this afternoon warned Vladimir Putin to grant international investigators immediate access to the MH17 crash site in Ukraine - or face fresh sanctions on Tuesday.

The leaders of Europe's three most powerful countries, who spoke on the phone this morning, said they were 'ready' to increase economic pressure on Russia if it did not deliver within the next 48 hours.

It came after the British Prime Minister attacked European leaders for being too soft on Mr Putin. Mr Cameron accused the EU of showing a lack of 'resolve' in refusing to face up to Russia and suggested the world was now paying the price.

Mr Cameron also likened the crisis to Europe's appeasement of Hitler in the 1930s.

Vladimir Putin has the power to 'snap his fingers' and stop the crisis in Ukraine but is failing to do so, said Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond this morning

The Prime Minister likened the failure to tackle Vladimir Putin to the appeasement of Hitler in the 1930s, while Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond said Russia risked becoming a 'pariah state' if it carried on arming and backing rebel militias

Germany's Angela Merkel and French President Francois Hollande said they were ready to hit Russia with fresh sanctions

British Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond on MH17:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hQpPeGpvMoU

RUSSIA 'BACKING THUGGISH MILITIAS' WHICH DOWNED MH17

The British Government has openly accused Russia of arming and supporting the Ukrainian rebels who shot down flight MH17.

Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond said: 'The Russians have influence, if not direct control, over these people.

'They have been supplying, they have been supporting them, they cannot deny their responsibility for the acts these people are carrying out.'

'There a growing number of strands of evidence, which looked at together in the round, lead the reasonable person to the unavoidable truth that this was a missile fired from rebel-held territory, almost certainly a missile supplied by the Russians.'

The Prime Minister has said the conflict 'could have been stopped by Moscow'.

He said all the evidence pointed to the fact that 'Flight MH17 was blown out of the sky by a surface-to-air missile fired from a rebel-held area'.

Mr Cameron said: 'If this is the case then we must be clear what it means: this is a direct result of Russia destabilising a sovereign state, violating its territorial integrity, backing thuggish militias and training and arming them.'

In the wake of the joint ultimatum today, Mr Cameron is expecting to talk with Mr Putin this evening.

The crunch talks come amid increasing global outrage over the downing of flight MH17 - and the behaviour of the rebel soldiers in the aftermath of the missile attack.

The rebels were today accused of moving bodies and fragments of plane in an attempt to destroy evidence, amid growing certainty that a rebel missiles were used to bring down the passenger jet.

Armed separatists today said they had recovered the black boxes from the downed aircradt and taken them to rebel-controlled Donetsk where they will be handed over to international investigators.

Rebel leader Aleksander Borodai told a press conference in Donetsk: 'Some items, presumably the black boxes, were found, and they have been delivered to Donetsk and they are under our control. There are no specialists among us who could pinpoint the look of the black boxes, but we brought to Donetsk some technical items which could be the black boxes of the airliner.'

The orange data recorder was taken from the crash site by a man wearing a uniform in what is still pro-Russian rebel controlled territory.

Read more: Vladimir Putin gets 48 hour ultimatum over MH17 crash site | Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


​

 

[MHz]

But the pro-Russian separatists have already been tampering with the wreckage.

Let's leave the propaganda at home shall we? (noted but not worth disputing at this point) the big issue will not be the parts themselves because a reconstruction will never take place however if pictures of the parts and location of the parts is accurately recorded a reconstruction can take place in the digital world.
I hope you know you were being a troll rather than being a troll and not knowing it.

I think it's normally the case that, like every crime scene, everything should be left where it is for a time as evidence.

In this case collection should happen on discovery and discovery should include digital recording of time and location and since the investigators were late in arriving they get to world with recorded items and that is something they could have been doing as they traveled to the area to go over the items that are at the collection points where they take pictures to look at after leaving the area.

What the authorities might do is piece the plane back together like a jigsaw puzzle, which is what they did with Pan Am 103 after Lockerbie, an almost identical disaster.

Let's hope they are a little better as that case is still a mystery and the false-flag factor has not been ruled out. In this case if both engines were found at the same impact site then a destruction of an engine by a heat-seaking missile would be an impossible chain of events.
I'm still at the point of being able to take out an engine on a 777 and not mess up the fuel tanks to the point they leak and ignite. In the next few day more angles might show up so the skies can be looked at a bit closer as the explosion I saw was far enough away to .be on the horizon' but the fireball indicates a lot of fuel was involved. The vertical crash in Russia a while back was at high-speed and solid ground and I don't know how much fuel they carry on a local flight fut the tanks were known to be intact and the explosion was pretty large and over very quickly

And then they may be able to ascertain whether the missile hit the fuselage, a wing, or the tailfin.

If it was a Buk it would hit an engine only, as would any other missile fired at an aircraft. To hit the tube itself you need something optically guided and that doesn't come as a point and shoot weapon that I know of. (S-300 are systems in that 5 or 6 trucks all need to be cabled together before the system is operational
What was used against the SU-25 dropped by the rebels rather than the one that is supposed to have been used by the rebels. This animations means it is pretty sophisticated and getting a target flying towards you is harder than shooting at one that is just leaving your controlled zone. (that it deals with the topic is accidental)
MH17: Graphics of the BUK missile that shot down the plane - YouTube

Some reports have stated that the plane split in two, with both parts falling in two different areas.

Maybe more like this will show up and we won't have to guess. At first glance it seems to be big enough to break a plane, I can't see a smoke trail from a missile but radar would pick that up would it not?

:44 seems to show a wing on fire and the rest of the craft is still intact. The sound of the explosion would be from the moment any light became visible and that is at the start of the clip I think so distance can be determined. One thing is for sure is it's glide ration is about as short as it gets. (taking original momentum into account)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOwzw1FE2nI

 

[Kreskin]

Blackleaf, Putin went into Crimea, and sponsored militants in the Ukraine, after the Ukrainians punted their pro-Russian government. Putin's move had nothing to do with what Obama did or didn't do in Syria.

Talk is cheap. Who cares what Cameron says. You guys are peons in warfare when you're talking about arenas with Russians and Americans. You're like that guy jumping behind the tough guy, calling out cheap shots at the local bully.

Obama's has already spoken to Putin and placed various sanctions on Russia. Not just for this incident. Until now you guys have basically sat in weeds. Now you guys plan to do something similar and you're complaining about what Obama hasn't done? What a joke.

 

[Blackleaf]

Let's leave the propaganda at home shall we? (noted but not worth disputing at this point)

The crunch talks come amid increasing global outrage over the downing of flight MH17 - and the behaviour of the rebel soldiers in the aftermath of the missile attack.

The rebels were today accused of moving bodies and fragments of plane in an attempt to destroy evidence, amid growing certainty that rebel missiles were used to bring down the passenger jet.

Vladimir Putin gets 48 hour ultimatum over MH17 crash site | Mail Online

the big issue will not be the parts themselves because a reconstruction will never take place however if pictures of the parts and location of the parts is accurately recorded a reconstruction can take place in the digital world.

It doesn't matter whether they physically reconstruct the parts as they did with the Lockerbie plane (below) or use technology probably not available in 1988.

I hope you know you were being a troll rather than being a troll and not knowing it.

I hope you know that I have no idea what you are talking about.

Let's hope they are a little better as that case is still a mystery and the false-flag factor has not been ruled out.

Bollocks. Libyan terrorist Abdelbaset al-Megrahi was the thug responsible for that bombing. There was no "false flag". Is it possible nowadays for some terrorist to commit an atrocity without numpties like you saying it was all merely a "false flag" committed by George W Bush, the big bad Israelis, the Daily Mail or UKIP or some other person or organisation that the lefty weirdos don't like?

In this case if both engines were found at the same impact site then a destruction of an engine by a heat-seaking missile would be an impossible chain of events.

Let's just let the investigators do their jobs, shall we? They probably know more about these sorts of things than you do.

If it was a Buk it would hit an engine only, as would any other missile fired at an aircraft. To hit the tube itself you need something optically guided and that doesn't come as a point and shoot weapon that I know of. (S-300 are systems in that 5 or 6 trucks all need to be cabled together before the system is operational

What was used against the SU-25 dropped by the rebels rather than the one that is supposed to have been used by the rebels. This animations means it is pretty sophisticated and getting a target flying towards you is harder than shooting at one that is just leaving your controlled zone. (that it deals with the topic is accidental)
MH17: Graphics of the BUK missile that shot down the plane - YouTube

Maybe more like this will show up and we won't have to guess. At first glance it seems to be big enough to break a plane, I can't see a smoke trail from a missile but radar would pick that up would it not?

:44 seems to show a wing on fire and the rest of the craft is still intact. The sound of the explosion would be from the moment any light became visible and that is at the start of the clip I think so distance can be determined. One thing is for sure is it's glide ration is about as short as it gets. (taking original momentum into account)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOwzw1FE2nI

How flight MH17 was obliterated in just 12 seconds: BUK missile system carrying 150lbs of explosives fired at doomed Malaysian flight with 95% accuracy


BUK launcher takes five minutes to warm up and 12 minutes to reload
Missile was likely detonated within 65ft (20 metres) of the MH17 target
This caused critical damage to the aircraft engines and control system
The huge explosion would have ignited the fuel on board the aircraft
BUK missiles can take down a plane up to an altitude of 75,000 feet
The missile systems were developed in the Soviet Union in the 1970s

By Ellie Zolfagharifard and Jonathan O'Callaghan
19 July 2014
Daily Mail


With deadly precision, a Soviet-built BUK missile launcher yesterday brought down Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 carrying 295 passengers.

The surface-to-air missile hit the Boeing 777 with such force that residents in the area claim to have seen bodies falling from the sky ‘like rags’.

While it has not been confirmed who is responsible, details are now emerging of exactly how this lethal weapon was able to hunt down and destroy the passenger aircraft.

The BUK missile system, also known as the SA-11 Gadfly, was created by the Soviet Union in 1979 to engage aircraft, cruise missiles and drones.

BUK - which means 'beech tree' in Russian - includes four missiles on a turntable mounted on a tracked vehicle. A separate tracked vehicle carries radars to guide the missiles.

Capable of carrying 154lbs (70kg) of highly-explosive warheads, BUK can send missiles up to an altitude of 75,000ft (23,000 metres).

It takes just five minutes to warm up, 12 minutes to reload and 8-12 seconds to reach its target. Once there, it has a kill probability of 90 to 95 per cent.

Yesterday's missile is likely to have detonated within 65 feet (20 metres) of MH17, causing critical damage to the engines and control system of the aircraft.

The explosion would have ignited the fuel onboard the aircraft, causing destruction of the wing and fuselage.

‘Inside the missile is a variety of different warheads,’ a senior defence source told MailOnline.

‘These can be fragmentation or incendiary, depending on the target you are flying at.

‘They can cut an aircraft in half, set it on fire or provide large pieces of shrapnel that shred it apart.’

The missile - thought to be the Mach 3 semi-active homing 9M28M - was launched from the back of what is essentially a truck and has a range of 1.8 to 12.4 miles (3 to 20km).

A 13.8-inch (35cm) ‘seeker’ on the missile would have received information on the trajectory of the passenger aircraft from a radar station on a separate vehicle.

A typical battery to launch the missile is made up of command vehicle housing computers and displays.

The system used to determine whether a target is a friend or foe would not warn an operator that the target was an airliner - only that it was not a friend.

‘Aircraft don’t fly along doing nothing, they talk to people, they communicate via radio, they transmit signals,' the defence source said.

‘If you are linked in to a national or standing air traffic system you’ll know what aircraft are flying around you.

‘If this was what people are saying it is, then it wasn’t linked into that system or they just ignored all of that information available.

'Once the radar on the system has found an aircraft it guides the missile to it. Why did it not know it was a civilian airliner? It sounds like someone has made a mistake.'

The image appears to show a BUK missile system cruising the streets of Torez, eastern Ukraine just hours before Malaysia Airline's flight MH17 was blown out of the sky

BUK missile launchers are capable of taking down aircraft the size of a Boeing 777 flying at a cruising altitude of 33,000 feet, meaning the impact is likely to have blown the plane apart in the sky

THE MISSILE SYSTEM: KEY FIGURES

Range: The missile believed has a range of 1.8 to 12.4 miles (three to 20km), making it a medium-range weapon.

Warheads: It carries a high-explosive warhead that weighs 70kg (150lbs).

Weight: The missiles themselves weigh between 685 and 715 kilograms (1,510 to 1,575 pounds).

Radar system: It is directed towards its target by radar after being fired and is self-propelled.

A 13.8-inch (35cm ) ‘seeker’ on the missile receives information on the trajectory or a moving target from a radar station on the ground, allowing it to navigate towards the target.

Dimensions: They are 18.2ft (5.55 metres) in length, with a wing-span of 34 inches (86cm).

Combat readiness: Five minutes

Kill probability: 90-95 per cent


The source confirmed that firing the missile was ‘as simple as pressing a button.’

‘The height and direction is computed within the command system to work out a collision point,' he said.

Older models of the missile fly at 2,790ft (850 metres) per second; newer models at 4,035ft (1,230 metres) per second.

At that speed, the missile would have impacted the plane between 8 and 12 seconds after it was launched, depending on the model.

The system has remained widely in use throughout the former Soviet states, including Ukraine.

Read more: How flight MH17 was obliterated in just 12 seconds | Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
​

 

[lone wolf]

Someone was using it like it was a tank

 

[Blackleaf]

Putin's move had nothing to do with what Obama did or didn't do in Syria.

How do you know? Are you an expert in geopolitics? Mr S. Judge, Reagan's former adviser and somebody who knows a lot more about these matters than you, thinks otherwise. I'd rather believe him than you.

Talk is cheap.

It certainly is. That's why Obama - who is all talk and no trousers - is showing what a weak and ineffective president he is and what a weak and ineffective country America is under him when all he does it talk-talk about Russia but doesn't do anything it about it.

Who cares what Cameron says.

The international community, including the French, Germans and, of course, our Australian friends, who are siding with him. He's the EU's leading voice in this matter.

You guys are peons in warfare when you're talking about arenas with Russians and Americans.

Well, the British, French, Germans and Australians seem to be doing a lot more in taking action against the Russian regime whilst a weak and indecisive America under its worst-president in history continues to be weak and indecisive. We have a situation where the British, Australians and even the French and Germans are taking a leading roll in taking action against Putin whilst Obama's America (and, as always, useless "neutral" Canada) watch from the sidelines.

Obama's has already spoken to Putin and placed various sanctions on Russia. Not just for this incident. Until now you guys have basically sat in weeds. Now you guys plan to do something similar and you're complaining about what Obama hasn't done? What a joke.

You should do some research before you post.

The EU - led by Britain - has already placed sanctions on Russia. Britain wanted the sanctions to be much tougher but the Germans - who, unlike the British, receive a lot of gas from Russia - were against it.

To say that the British who, like in all other similar situations, have taken a much more prominent and active role than almost any other country on Earth, have "sat on weeds" in this matter is ludicrous. Britain has tried hard to place tougher sanctions on Russia but, as usual when it tries to do the right thing, its plans were scuppered by its EU "allies". Britain. more than anyone, has tried for months to punish Russia. What the hell has Canada done?

 

[lone wolf]

Put up with your rants.....

 

[petros]

No more 5 pages of cut and paste. Nobody reads it.

 

[MHz]

Someone was using it like it was a tank

Can you imagine some new hire tank driver showing his 'employers' his skills and says 'Watch that plane.' and then does some adjustments and pulls the pin and a round goes off, 15 seconds later a big cloud high in the sky.
I don't see a sign with Russia and a arrow pointing in the direction the weapon was going.
Video emerges of missile launcher heading for Russia minus 2 rockets - The Malaysian Insider


"Yesterday's missile is likely to have detonated within 65 feet (20 metres) of MH17, causing critical damage to the engines and control system of the aircraft.

The explosion would have ignited the fuel onboard the aircraft, causing destruction of the wing and fuselage."

The vid that is available shows a fire in the engine on the left of the fuselage. The tail seems to still be intact and degree of descent is unknown at this time. With the wingtips still intact and one engine still functioning the horizontal distance traveled could be greater than the vid indicates. If you know the height and the initial speed you can plot the rest of the info to a certain degree. Such as a heat seeking missile is fired from behind and this craft was going west to east so the equipment was behind it when fired. That should narrow down what areas it could have been fired from. The limit of it's range could also be plotted into that equation, once it can be shown to be the weapon used, a stealthy NATO fighter could do the same to the extent a missile fired from the ground would be picked up by 'somebody'. In the vid below at the :30 mark a few missiles are fired and there is a trail of smoke that is left behind, that should be visible in the vid that has debris floating down from great height. Without that and that it has a proximity warhead rather than heat seeking then perhaps that isn't the system that was used because clearly one engine is fully engulfed in flames while the rest of the craft is not. If the fuel tanks were opened up there would have been no huge fireball when it impacted. That has already been clearly shown has it not?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDXScnEKaP0

 

[lone wolf]

Now it's TWO rockets? Someone better tell CNN - and that white truck it rode behind

 

[gopher]

I tried to watch a CBS news special with Bob Schiefer this morning that dealt with this crisis. Interesting how the host and guest commentators mentioned Putin's and Obama's names (especially the latter) innumerable times. Never once, however, were the names of Ukraine's, Holland's, and Malaysia's presidents or leaders mentioned. What those idiots in CBS as well as other American news sources need to understand is that this horrible incident involved a Malaysian air craft that left with a majority of Dutch passengers, and was destroyed over Ukrainian air space. Those moronic jackazzes from the news media were acting as if this, somehow, involves a diplomatic crisis, or merits war actions, between the USA and Russia.

Neither Russia nor the USA have proven to be directly involved in this. Therefore, the main principles in dealing with it are the three nations I mentioned above. It is time for these trigger happy idiots in CBS and other media to call upon the appropriate people to deal with the crisis. Only after it is solved should third parties who are not directly involved be brought into the conversation.

 

[MHz]

Now it's TWO rockets? Someone better tell CNN - and that white truck it rode behind

The BUK has a 90% kill ratio, I would shoot two at it, if the first one connected then any fighter there to confirm the kill would then drop chaff to attract the 2nd missile fired , nicknamed 'plan b'.
How close does the other component of the system have to be. On top of a hill overlooking a valley 20 miles long and 20 missile carriers in that 20 mile stretch would pretty much 'secure' that particular area. I also assume it can be made part of a larger system (wireless) once it has surface to surface munitions loaded, in racks of 50 all individually targeted so it can be one shot or all 50 at once. Russia would be sending that sort of equipment to Crimea rather than to the Eastern Ukraine.
Why would Kiev need BUK systems when their campaign is artillery and mortars?

Neither Russia nor the USA have proven to be directly involved in this. Therefore, the main principles in dealing with it are the three nations I mentioned above.

It should be enough to get some debate going at the UN now that the risk to international citizens is a fact and not a 'mere possibility'.
Crimea would have had it's S-300 system active and it has that kind of range for it's radar. The US covers that area with it's Patriot system so it is known by them where the missile came from.

 

[lone wolf]

The BUK has a 90% kill ratio, I would shoot two at it, if the first one connected then any fighter there to confirm the kill would then drop chaff to attract the 2nd missile fired , nicknamed 'plan b'.
How close does the other component of the system have to be. On top of a hill overlooking a valley 20 miles long and 20 missile carriers in that 20 mile stretch would pretty much 'secure' that particular area. I also assume it can be made part of a larger system (wireless) once it has surface to surface munitions loaded, in racks of 50 all individually targeted so it can be one shot or all 50 at once. Russia would be sending that sort of equipment to Crimea rather than to the Eastern Ukraine.
Why would Kiev need BUK systems when their campaign is artillery and mortars?

If you're in a rebel army and you don't have an unlimited supply, you're not going to waste a million-dollar-missile on improving your own odds. Chances are you're going to be bottom line all the way

 

[MHz]

First I'm not going to accept something that my Yogo can't haul. Bunch of cameras and an up-link with unlimited bandwidth. I would be more interested in what was being said by a few guys 100 yards away. A lot of cash for the female barmaids so they can ply the off duty soldiers..

 

[Locutus]

Moscow Surprised How Many Already Have MH17 'Answers'

Kiev 'Proof' Separatists Shot Down MH17 FAKED - Expert

MH17 Was 300 Miles OFF Typical Course

 

[Blackleaf]

I tried to watch a CBS news special with Bob Schiefer this morning that dealt with this crisis. Interesting how the host and guest commentators mentioned Putin's and Obama's names (especially the latter) innumerable times. Never once, however, were the names of Ukraine's, Holland's, and Malaysia's presidents or leaders mentioned. What those idiots in CBS as well as other American news sources need to understand is that this horrible incident involved a Malaysian air craft that left with a majority of Dutch passengers, and was destroyed over Ukrainian air space. Those moronic jackazzes from the news media were acting as if this, somehow, involves a diplomatic crisis, or merits war actions, between the USA and Russia.

Neither Russia nor the USA have proven to be directly involved in this .

Russia is directly involved in this affair. It is Russia's aggression against Ukraine and its deliberate act of destabilising eastern Ukraine and turning it into a lawless area that this catastrophe occurred. Russia has blood on its hands.

Put up with your rants.....

Come on, pal. Leave this affair to Britain and the other big boys on the block.

Why don't you Canadians go and do some Canadian things, like release a few nut cutlets, attend a rally for more rights for lesbian, paraplegic, Muslim Greenpeace activists, or build an igloo?

 

[Blackleaf]

Britain has accused France, Germany and other EU countries of going soft on Russia, and has condemned France for still wanting to sell two new helicopter carriers to Russia.

Calling for an economic cold war, the British Prime Minister urged other EU leaders to agree tough sanctions against Moscow.

He insisted there should be an embargo on commercial dealings with Russian defence, banking, energy and aviation firms.

Ahead of emergency talks in Brussels today, he insisted the EU should also freeze the assets of the Russian president’s allies, whom he referred to as cronies and oligarchs, including Chelsea FC's billionaire owner Roman Abramovich.

Evoking the spectre of Nazi aggression in the 1930s and 40s, he added: ‘Those of us in Europe should not need to be reminded of the consequences of turning a blind eye when big countries bully smaller countries.

'We will lose diplomatic and economic security if we do not confront the fact that one country in Europe is now being destabilised by Russia, and if we let this happen, others will follow.'

Mr Cameron's tough talk comes at the same time that France has, unbelievably, decided NOT to stop its sale of two Mistral helicopter carriers, which the French are currently building, to Russia. Cameron has said France's actions are ‘unthinkable’ after the downing of the Malaysian jet.

Asked about France’s plan to press ahead with the £1billion contract, the Prime Minister said: 'Frankly in this country it would be unthinkable to fulfil an order like the one outstanding that the French have.'

Tory MP Anne Marie Morris has suggested Russia should be stripped of the right to hold the 2018 World Cup.

Labour leader Ed Miliband, in Washington for a brief meeting with US president Barack Obama (the pair might get to see a lot of each other between 2015 and 2016 if Miliband is elected British PM next year), said Europe faced a moment of reckoning.

‘We know enough about this disaster to know that this is a moment when Europe needs to show its strength as well as its sorrow,’ he added.

Britain has also accused Germany of going soft on Russia. Unlike Britain, many continental EU countries, such as Germany and Italy, rely on Russia for a lot of their energy and so are scared to stand up to the Russians too much.

And the Netherlands - which lost by far the most people in this tragedy - may also not be keen to upset the Russians too much as it is Russia's biggest export market in the EU.

The fact that Britain wants to take a tough stance against Russia whilst its EU "allies" are going soft - and the French (nothing surprises me about the French, although I suppose with the Socialists there ruining the French economy they need all the money they can get) still want to sell the Russians two helicopter carriers after eveything that's happened - shows just how ineffective and useless the disunited EU is and why Britain would be very wise to get out of it.

Don't sell your warships to Putin: David Cameron urges France to axe arms deal as he calls for economic cold war


Embargo defence, banking, energy and air deals, Prime Minister said

Called to freeze assets of Putin's 'crony' allies, blamed Russian PM for crash

Vows to agree tough sanctions on Moscow at emergency Brussels talks



By James Chapman
21 July 2014
Daily Mail

David Cameron yesterday urged France to abandon a contract to sell warships to Vladimir Putin.

Calling for an economic cold war, the Prime Minister urged other EU leaders to agree tough sanctions against Moscow.

He insisted there should be an embargo on commercial dealings with Russian defence, banking, energy and aviation firms.

Anger: David Cameron, shown above speaking in the Commons yesterday with Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond on the right and his predecessor William Hague on the left, vows to bring tough sanctions on Moscow after emergency talks in Brussels

Sanctions: Putin, pictured examining aviation equipment yesterday, was at the receiving end of a stern 30-minute rant from David Cameron on Sunday. He now faces tough embargoes levied by the EU

Ahead of emergency talks in Brussels today, he insisted the EU should also freeze the assets of the Russian president’s allies, whom he referred to as cronies and oligarchs.

Mr Cameron told MPs it had been shown beyond doubt that Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 was shot down by an SA11 missile fired by separatists trained and armed by Moscow in a conflict ‘fomented’ by Russia.

Evoking the spectre of Nazi aggression in the 1930s and 40s, he added: ‘Those of us in Europe should not need to be reminded of the consequences of turning a blind eye when big countries bully smaller countries.

'We will lose diplomatic and economic security if we do not confront the fact that one country in Europe is now being destabilised by Russia, and if we let this happen, others will follow.'

Earlier this year, Prince Charles prompted controversy by likening Mr Putin to Adolf Hitler.

Mr Cameron questioned France’s plan to sell Mistral helicopter carriers to Russia, suggesting it was ‘unthinkable’ after the downing of the Malaysian jet.

From France with love: This is part of the Sevastopol ship under construction in Saint-Nazaire, western France, for the Russian navy. It was pictued arriving from the Baltic on July 15

Close: Putin and billionaire Arkady Rotenberg who has been been blacklisted by US sanctions

Asked about France’s plan to press ahead with a £1billion contract, the Prime Minister said: ‘Frankly in this country it would be unthinkable to fulfil an order like the one outstanding that the French have.

‘We cannot go on doing business as usual with a country when it is behaving in this way.

'Russia cannot expect to continue enjoying access to European markets, European capital, European knowledge and technical expertise while she fuels conflict in one of Europe’s neighbours.’

His remarks will embarrass France’s socialist president Francois Hollande, who has refused to intervene to cancel the delivery of the vessels to Moscow, despite pressure to do so from the US even before the downing of MH17.

Former Cabinet minister Kenneth Clarke said: ‘If this outrageous [Russian] behaviour is not met with truly effective sanctions, the West faces very grave problems in the next few years from Russian behaviour across the rest of central and eastern Europe, including the Balkan states and the Baltic states inside the [European] Union itself.’

Conservative MP Colonel Bob Stewart, ex-commander of UN forces in Bosnia, said Nato should now position troops in the Balkan republics and Poland.

Anne Marie Morris, another Tory MP, suggested Russia should be stripped of the right to hold the 2018 World Cup.

Grim cargo: Ukrainian rescue workers remove bagged bodies of the 298 MH17 victims from the village of Grabovo in eastern Ukraine where the plane came down. The area is controlled by pro-Russian separatists

Safety: Emergency workers put on protective gear to handle the victims, many of whom were badly burned

Labour leader Ed Miliband, in Washington for a brief meeting with US president Barack Obama, said Europe faced a moment of reckoning.

‘We know enough about this disaster to know that this is a moment when Europe needs to show its strength as well as its sorrow,’ he added.

‘EU foreign ministers meeting this week must take the first decisive steps to tighten and extend sanctions, not just against specific individuals, but against Russian commercial organisations, unless and until President Putin ceases all support for the separatists in eastern Ukraine and halts the supply of arms across the Russian border.’

Despite Mr Cameron’s rhetoric, diplomatic sources played down the prospect of a major escalation of sanctions at today’s meeting of EU foreign ministers in Brussels.

It was not immediately known what the Malaysian team would do with the black boxes, but there was speculation they would pass the boxes on to experts with experience of reading the data

A Malaysian investigator, left, takes a black box as it is handed over by a Donetsk People's Republic official in the city of Donetsk
Other member states are said to be nervous about the economic impact of cutting Russia off.

Stefan Hedlund, an expert on Russia based at Uppsala University in Sweden, said a full-scale economic confrontation between the West and Russia could be devastating.

‘The Russian economy would be thrown into severe recession, the Ukrainian economy would collapse, and all hopes for a recovery in the eurozone would be put off for several years,’ he said.

Last night the UN Security Council adopted a resolution calling for a full and independent investigation into the MH17 disaster.


Read more: David Cameron urges France to axe Vladimir Putin arms deal | Mail Online
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No evidence of direct Russian link to plane, US officials say | Fox News