Peace or Walking With Warriors

[CDNBear]

Bear

If you'd rather pay blood for appeasement to trading "partners" I'll remember your children in my best wishes. Your willingness to abbrogate your responsibility to the future of your children is absolutely shameful. Get over you inflated ego and false-hubris in the "warrior-image" and try to concieve of a world larger than your little corner of it.

Hey Mikey...They've been raised well...The oldest a Flight Cpl. In the Royal Canadian Air Cadets, the youngest, a Pte. in the Royal Canadian Army Cadets.

My brothers and sisters in Afghanistan, are there now, so my kids won't have to be.

As for dumping on the US all the time.

If you have a solution that doesn't involve the end of our economy, please by all means pass it along.

And by all means Mikey, you can drop the personalized attacks any time.

 

[darkbeaver]

Bear, your children may be spared Afghanistan but I can promise you there will be another "just war" and another and another. The economy you worship demands blood sacrifice and will not be denied.

 

[MikeyDB]

"a solution that doesn't involve the end of our economy..."

That about says it all Bear.

In case you haven't noticed...at the gas pumps, at the grocery store, in the streets of major urban centers (rocked with drug abuse and violence), in the loss of employment and jobs across the "west", throughout the "economy" you so dearly love even at the cost of your children's future, it's all breaking down around us!

What possible use will your dollars be when there's no food to buy, when there's no trucks deliviering plastic goo-gahs for consumer conditioned morons to buy at the local "big box"...

This great "economy" you place above the future of your children is rapidly going down the dumper Bear and unless and until the robber-barons of industry and corporate government are brought under control.....

But hey...I know...that would require an effort....

Something Canadians are more than prepared to leave up to someone else....

 

[MikeyDB]

Bear

Please understand Bear when you sign a contribution, that means it's product of your mind, that's a personal issue. If you don't want your insights and opinions to exist as extensions of yourself, then who do we address our responses to?

 

[dancing-loon]

Unfortunately, and I don't mean to be cruel, but if the bombers hadn't flown over those German cities, if the German Army hadn't met with resistence, if we hadn't killed indiscriminately, we would have wound up occupied and ruled by one of the worst group of murderers and genocidal lunatics in human history.

Unfortunately, their rule would have been much, much worse than war. Unfortunately, the cost of 55 million lives to crush German, Italian, and Japanese fascism was - how can I even say this? - it was worth it. Because the cost of submission would have been so much worse.

Yes, war is an evil thing......but one sometimes has to choose the lesser of two evils.

And those we send out into that meat grinder, those that step forward in our defense, those that serve.....deserve our respect.

Those pacifist that react with disgust to the people that protect them are, in my opinion, beneath contempt. If they choose that path for themselves, fine.....but without those willing to do violence on their behalf......they would have a much more onerous decision......fight, live as slaves, or die.

Thus it has always been.

Thus it always will be.

Colpy, you are not cruel, you are only like million others who have gone through the brainwashing process. "Nazis, the greatest evil of all times!" "Nazis are all criminals and murderers!" "Hitler wanted to take over the world!" ETC....

I have wanted to find that out for myself, and for the last ten or so years I have read many books on the war. One book I like to recommend you read is "The Hitler/Hess Deception" British Intelligence's Best-Kept Secret of the Second World War.
By Martin Allan (2003).
M. Allan is a Brit and appeared to me unbiased and neutral, the kind I like to read. He had come upon some newly declassified documents through the Freedom of Information Act.
I highly recommand his book.

I've just finished reading a small paperback by Leon Degrelle, "The Story of the Waffen SS".
Another book by Leon Degrelle I'm reading just now is "Campaign In Russia", The Waffen SS On The Eastern Front.

I'm particularly interested in the Waffen SS, as two of my brothers were in the fighting SS. I never had a chance to talk with my brothers about that as a grown-up. I left Germany at age 20, first working for three years in Sweden, then coming over here to get married.

I'm on a mission to learn more about the war I lived through as a child. I want to understand my parents, why they were Nazis?

Colpy, here is a website for you to read, if you want to know the other side of Hitler, the side I picked up as a kid. It's an account by a man who knew Hitler more intimately.
http://library.flawlesslogic.com/enigma.htm

I rather believe that account of Hitler than the Hate-Literature pumped out by Germany's enemies of that time!

I must go now. Other things to do!

 

[MikeyDB]

Dancing_Loon

The evil that men do...etc.

Our structures of government of ideology of existentialism, of the social organizing principle demand black and white "good-guys" and "bad guys". While morality may dictate the rightness or wrongness of some component of this experience, it is all entirely relative and in most cases turns on the ideology of "beliefs" erected to maintain and enhance the power and wealth of the few at the cost of suffering war and mayhem to everyone else.

This monochromatic view of morality is what powers "the Holocaust", what permits the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave to slaughter children in their beds from thirty-five thousand feet in the sky or from cruise missile ships hundreds of miles from their "targets".

This monochromatic view of everything is the digital today.

 

[Colpy]

Colpy, you are not cruel, you are only like million others who have gone through the brainwashing process. "Nazis, the greatest evil of all times!" "Nazis are all criminals and murderers!" "Hitler wanted to take over the world!" ETC....

I have wanted to find that out for myself, and for the last ten or so years I have read many books on the war. One book I like to recommend you read is "The Hitler/Hess Deception" British Intelligence's Best-Kept Secret of the Second World War.
By Martin Allan (2003).
M. Allan is a Brit and appeared to me unbiased and neutral, the kind I like to read. He had come upon some newly declassified documents through the Freedom of Information Act.
I highly recommand his book.

I've just finished reading a small paperback by Leon Degrelle, "The Story of the Waffen SS".
Another book by Leon Degrelle I'm reading just now is "Campaign In Russia", The Waffen SS On The Eastern Front.

I'm particularly interested in the Waffen SS, as two of my brothers were in the fighting SS. I never had a chance to talk with my brothers about that as a grown-up. I left Germany at age 20, first working for three years in Sweden, then coming over here to get married.

I'm on a mission to learn more about the war I lived through as a child. I want to understand my parents, why they were Nazis?

Colpy, here is a website for you to read, if you want to know the other side of Hitler, the side I picked up as a kid. It's an account by a man who knew Hitler more intimately.
http://library.flawlesslogic.com/enigma.htm

I rather believe that account of Hitler than the Hate-Literature pumped out by Germany's enemies of that time!

I must go now. Other things to do!

Okay.......

First of all, Leon deGrelle was arrested as a Nazi collaborator days before the fall of Belguim, then, when realeased by the Germans, he volunteered to fight in their army............a traitor to his country.............I am only sorry he died of natural causes, instead of being hanged.

After the war he lived in exile in Spain to avoid just that end. There he took up the twin causes of Neo-Nazism and Holocaust denial............the man is absolute scum, and I am amazed that one I assumed was as liberal as you seem to be would take ANYTHING ythis turd says as truth. My God, woman, the article you post appears under the heading "OUR RACE IS OUR NATION"

Uh-huh

He treats Hitler like some kind of demi-god.........

Adolph Hitler murdered 10 million people because of their race, their politics, their physical or mental handicaps. That is aside from his responsibility for the vast majority of the other 45 million deaths of the Second World War.

Now comes the tough one.....if your parents were Nazis, they were responsible as well. The Germans put Hitler in power, the Germans insisted on the Sudetenland, the Germans worked to bring Austria into the Reich, the Germans made the deal with the Devil Stalin to divide Poland, the Germans invaded Poland, the Germans double-crossed their buddy Stalin, the Germans created the first industrialized genocide, the Germans had to be crushed, no matter what the cost . Full stop. Your family, and this is cruel, were part of the problem, if they were Nazis and SS volunteers.

And please don't give the "we didn't know" BS about genocide and murder..........EVERYBODY knew.....or couldn't they read the hatred on the posters, the newspapers, did they never hear of the abuse of Jewish and other citizens.........?

EVERY citizen is responsible for the actions of their government in a small way.........if they support that gov't, they are responsible in a BIG way.

The fact that Hitler liked dogs and patted children on the head does NOT make him any less a demon.

I have no doubt you loved your parents and your brothers........unfortunately, that changes not a thing.

I am sorry that you have trouble dealing with these facts, but there it is.

AND, BTW, Hess thought that Britain would accept a peace initiative while Hitler attacked the USSR. Hess thought Churchill, who hated communism, would stab all of occupied Europe in the back......leaving them in the clutches of a monster.......simply to ensure the survival of Great Britain. Hess was wrong.

Appeasement ended, thank God, in September of 1939.

 

[Colpy]

Dancing_Loon

The evil that men do...etc.

Our structures of government of ideology of existentialism, of the social organizing principle demand black and white "good-guys" and "bad guys". While morality may dictate the rightness or wrongness of some component of this experience, it is all entirely relative and in most cases turns on the ideology of "beliefs" erected to maintain and enhance the power and wealth of the few at the cost of suffering war and mayhem to everyone else.

This monochromatic view of morality is what powers "the Holocaust", what permits the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave to slaughter children in their beds from thirty-five thousand feet in the sky or from cruise missile ships hundreds of miles from their "targets".

This monochromatic view of everything is the digital today.

To an extent, true, Mikey.

Things are not usually black or white.

War is NEVER black or white.

But never has the "lesser of two evils" been clearer than it was in 1939 to 1945.

Period.

 

[dancing-loon]

I knew we would clash!
I expected the brick wall!
I know I shouldn't have exposed myself!
I don't have the knowledge and the strength yet to argue back effectively.
I am unable or unwilling to accept unquestionably the guilt that is heaped on us Germans.
I need to figure it out myself...

I have heard the phrase, or is it the title of a book? Something like... the war had many fathers. (Der Krieg hatte viele Vaeter) Meaning not just Hitler, I suppose.

I had computer trouble again tonight, couldn't get on the internet, and now it is late and bedtime.
Good Night!

 

[RomSpaceKnight]

Hiler was a raving lunatic and a psychopathic murderer. Yes he brought the German people some pride that had been wrongly stripped from them by the Versaille Treaty. When the rest of the wetern world was going through the Roaring Twenties, Germans were taking their pay home in wheelbarrows twice a day due to rampant inflation and just as rapid devaluation of German currency. He was legally elected. Racism and eugenics were not limited to German politics. Many countries had sterilization programs for mentally challenged folk. We need not mention the US black issues. Nationalism was rampant all over the world. WWII was just WWI being fought to a conclusion.

This does not excuse his or the Nazi party's wholesale slaughter of Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and political dissidents. The average German probably did not know about the death camps. Locally maybe but when you live in a facist state, you either comply or end up in a camp yourself. The regular German armed forces had elements which tried to kill Hitler. Probably good they didn't. If Rommel had been made head of state they may have even turned the tides and won.

 

[Zzarchov]

The thing is DancingLoon, the blame is deserved, its just a tough pill to swallow.

There are many things those alive at the time could say "Others are doing it, we are just the only ones caught" (and if you count in Austria as getting away not only scott free but as some kind of victim it certainly must be irritating).

But a whole world of "Them too's" and "What was I to do's" doesn't change the "you did" of the German people.

 

[MikeyDB]

Nor does it change the responsibility of Americans when it comes to Iraq. At risk of re-opening an old can of worms, the same goes for nuking Japan and creating (50% share) of the "Cold War". It is also quite true that America hired and used Nazi officers in intelligence posts after WW II and the extent to which the influence of these Nazi officers influenced America's "fear" of Soviet Russia is a matter of public record.

It would stand to reason that a world reeling from the onslaught of WW II might fashion a perspective that placed preventative diplomacy and communications ahead of raw militarism and self-interest-to-exclusion-of-everything-else..... but this wasn't the case.

We as a species are perhaps inexorably bound to the primitivism and barbarism of "war" as evolutionary factor, however I doubt that the attitudes of mankind when it comes to self-interest has the capacity to overwhelm this organisms sense/predilection to "survival". We spend enormous amounts of time examining the precedents and meting out blame, but seem to forget (despite rituals and holidays commemorating "war") that the impulse to self-destruction is if a natural phenomenon, inescapable through instinct and it must fall to intelligence and foresight to forestall and perhaps divest ourselve's of these impulses.

Abandoning the examination isn't useful and denying complicity avoids the issues. As America has been unable to shed its history and perhaps its appetite for slavery in the name of "profits", prejudices whether targetting blacks and Hispanics or Asians and Middle Eastern people are exactly the same inducements and dynamics that breathed life into the various and many holocusts that have pock-marked human history. The same greed and self-interest is alive and well today.....

Reacting or 'responding' emotionally is likely unavoiadable but what is absolutely unavoidable is repeating a similar path to self-destruction when reason and sommon sense are eschewed in the name of some national "ism" or unrestrained greed and self-interest regardless of consequence.

You have to think your way out of this attitude and this behavior and if we don't....

 

[dancing-loon]

Dancing Loon, I have a question:

Where do you draw the line between war and policing?

If a police force is going to enter into an armed compound to stop a cult that murders children, is that war? Should it not be done?

Take your own example. While allied bombers flew over your country, the solution would have been simple. Stop firing at them and surrender to stop the war your country started, stop supporting the government of the land in its efforts at exterminating fellow citizens and conquered foreign nationals.

But then the fear was even worse casualties if you stopped fighting(only unfounded from one half of the allied forces)

The only thing worse than two sides fighting a war, is one side fighting a war and the other side just dying.

You Canadians of that time should have stayed home! The Amis and the Tommies, too!!:lol: Why did you all get involved?

I don't know what you mean with a cult murdering children. Are you referring to Waco???

 

[earth_as_one]

Unfortunately, and I don't mean to be cruel, but if the bombers hadn't flown over those German cities, if the German Army hadn't met with resistence, if we hadn't killed indiscriminately, we would have wound up occupied and ruled by one of the worst group of murderers and genocidal lunatics in human history.

Unfortunately, their rule would have been much, much worse than war. Unfortunately, the cost of 55 million lives to crush German, Italian, and Japanese fascism was - how can I even say this? - it was worth it. Because the cost of submission would have been so much worse.

Yes, war is an evil thing......but one sometimes has to choose the lesser of two evils.

And those we send out into that meat grinder, those that step forward in our defense, those that serve.....deserve our respect.

Those pacifist that react with disgust to the people that protect them are, in my opinion, beneath contempt. If they choose that path for themselves, fine.....but without those willing to do violence on their behalf......they would have a much more onerous decision......fight, live as slaves, or die.

Thus it has always been.

Thus it always will be.

Even though I am a pacifist, I am also aware there is a time for war. Pacifism won't help when attacked by a rabid dog.

I've also seen the Canadian military in action during ice storm 98. I was impressed.

I know people who serve and have served with Canada's military. I even support the existance of commando units such as those which disgraced Canada in Somalia. It was mistake to send that unit to a peacekeeping mission. That's not their intended purpose.

Even someone who supports our soldiers must be against stupid wars. Their is also a time for peace and diplomacy.

Part of the problem is that some people are more easily manipulated into supporting a war than others...

 

[dancing-loon]

Take a look what Canada's enemy looks like etc.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/talkingtothetaliban

 

[dancing-loon]

The thing is DancingLoon, the blame is deserved, its just a tough pill to swallow.

There are many things those alive at the time could say "Others are doing it, we are just the only ones caught" (and if you count in Austria as getting away not only scott free but as some kind of victim it certainly must be irritating).

But a whole world of "Them too's" and "What was I to do's" doesn't change the "you did" of the German people.

You are right, Zzarkov, and I have nothing to argue against you. Of course you are speaking exclusively of the holocaust? It's a subject forbidden to argue over, so forget.

 

[dancing-loon]

Nor does it change the responsibility of Americans when it comes to Iraq. At risk of re-opening an old can of worms, the same goes for nuking Japan and creating (50% share) of the "Cold War". It is also quite true that America hired and used Nazi officers in intelligence posts after WW II and the extent to which the influence of these Nazi officers influenced America's "fear" of Soviet Russia is a matter of public record.

It would stand to reason that a world reeling from the onslaught of WW II might fashion a perspective that placed preventative diplomacy and communications ahead of raw militarism and self-interest-to-exclusion-of-everything-else..... but this wasn't the case.

We as a species are perhaps inexorably bound to the primitivism and barbarism of "war" as evolutionary factor, however I doubt that the attitudes of mankind when it comes to self-interest has the capacity to overwhelm this organisms sense/predilection to "survival". We spend enormous amounts of time examining the precedents and meting out blame, but seem to forget (despite rituals and holidays commemorating "war") that the impulse to self-destruction is if a natural phenomenon, inescapable through instinct and it must fall to intelligence and foresight to forestall and perhaps divest ourselves of these impulses.

Abandoning the examination isn't useful and denying complicity avoids the issues. As America has been unable to shed its history and perhaps its appetite for slavery in the name of "profits", prejudices whether targeting blacks and Hispanics or Asians and Middle Eastern people are exactly the same inducements and dynamics that breathed life into the various and many holocausts that have pock-marked human history. The same greed and self-interest is alive and well today.....

Reacting or 'responding' emotionally is likely unavoiadable but what is absolutely unavoidable is repeating a similar path to self-destruction when reason and sommon sense are eschewed in the name of some national "ism" or unrestrained greed and self-interest regardless of consequence.

You have to think your way out of this attitude and this behavior and if we don't....

Mikey... as always you are calm and wise. Thanks for not splitting a two x four over my head!!:lol::-|

I found a nice website. I hope many will read it. Here is a short excerpt from it:

Young men who were considered legally too young to drink alcohol, were conscripted like lambs to the slaughter to risk their lives and die in South-East Asia. About 58,000 U.S. soldiers died in Vietnam. Many of those who didn't make the journey home in a body bag were physically and mentally maimed. Like their counterparts in Feudal days, they stood to gain virtually nothing from either victory or defeat. Most were too young to own anything but a minuscule part of the nation's assets. In fact plenty of war veterans who risked their lives in Vietnam are currently homeless and unemployed. Many finally realized that they had been conscripted not in defense of their own country, but to ensure the future prosperity of the economic elite. Bitter and disillusioned, many took to alcohol and drugs in an effort to drown out the harshness of reality after the war had removed their naivete. Perhaps it was a delayed reaction to the abrupt introduction to war's reality, and their role in it, that explains why more than 50,000 soldiers committed suicide after they returned home!! Broadcasting that fact would have made it much more difficult to recruit or conscript more pawns (suckers) for their next chess battle, so chances are you probably didn't get to hear that shocking statistic.

Lots more to read here: http://www.justiceplus.org/pg5-01.htm#end

 

[talloola]

while many of our military were working hard to reconstruct many parts of afghanistan,
peacefully, they were being attacked by taliban.
I respect our military for stepping up to defend those who are peacefully doing reconstruction. We can't be peacekeepers till there is peace, and I would be very dissapointed, if our troops did nothing to defend each other.
Good on them for their efforts in afghanistan, and may the afghans have a better life
because of much effort by our brave military.
I'm glad our troops weren't told to 'run home' when taliban began to attack them, but
turn and fight back.
I am proud of them.

 

[MikeyDB]

Talloola

Their committment to the task is admirable in that it is evidence that something other than deceit and hypocrisy breathes in the hearts of the common man. Not the same can be said for the politicians or in fact the people who sent them to Afghanistan.

When we voluntarily limit our world-view to "fit" reality, we do a disservice to that honesty. The Afghans mission is a mission of deceit and lies. It was America who armed the Mahujadeen to repel the invaision by the Russians, it was another "proxy" engagement by the neaderthals of self-interest who manipulate governments through petroleum and other industries. It is reprehensible that warlords are given a pass on collecting revenues from poppy fields and yet neither Canada or America seems to feel that where and how these factions find their funding is important. I suppose if our people die from ordinance purchased from money obtained through the drug trade, in the final analysis it doesn't really matter since dead is dead.... But how fair and reasonable is it to expect our military to die at the hands of drug-dealing warlords pulled as pawns into this situation by American greed and self-interest?

You won't find opiate addicts manning the front lines, what you'll find is good and decent young people dying so some junkie can get a fix....

Some mission.....

 

[Colpy]

Talloola

Their committment to the task is admirable in that it is evidence that something other than deceit and hypocrisy breathes in the hearts of the common man. Not the same can be said for the politicians or in fact the people who sent them to Afghanistan.

When we voluntarily limit our world-view to "fit" reality, we do a disservice to that honesty. The Afghans mission is a mission of deceit and lies. It was America who armed the Mahujadeen to repel the invaision by the Russians, it was another "proxy" engagement by the neaderthals of self-interest who manipulate governments through petroleum and other industries. It is reprehensible that warlords are given a pass on collecting revenues from poppy fields and yet neither Canada or America seems to feel that where and how these factions find their funding is important. I suppose if our people die from ordinance purchased from money obtained through the drug trade, in the final analysis it doesn't really matter since dead is dead.... But how fair and reasonable is it to expect our military to die at the hands of drug-dealing warlords pulled as pawns into this situation by American greed and self-interest?

You won't find opiate addicts manning the front lines, what you'll find is good and decent young people dying so some junkie can get a fix....

Some mission.....

Mikey, try dealing with reality.....how "fair and reasonable" would it be to withdraw, allow the Taliban to retake the nation, let the training camps spring up once again in the hills, and then have the CN Tower and several hundred Canadians blown to bits?

You want to talk about being unable to see anything except in Black and White.....look in the mirror!