Parents pick prayer over doctor; diabetic girl dies

[Praxius]

Sacrificing one's children to the gods has been around the ages of humanity.
But is something that society has to deal with.

Belief in child sacrifice is not acceptable and should not be tolerated.

Peace>>>AJ

This has nothing to do with child sacrafice.... this has to do with idiot parents not knowing what was wrong with their kid, too stupid to goto a doctor to find out what the problem was and asking god to just simply fix it.

It's people like this that probably spread AIDS..... "Oh I don't have anything, I asked God to cure me and he did." :roll:

 

[talloola]

Lets look at some concepts for those who aren't truly religious:

1.) Death is not the end but the begining:
Therefore, dying is no big deal.
2.) God has his plan and its not your job to get in the way:
Therefore, praying isn't to make your daughter better, its to hope that that is part of gods plan. If god wants your daughter dead (and thus in the afterlife) thats his business and you have to have faith its for the best.

To many very devout people (some in my family) stopping someone in your family from dying of natural causes is shameful and embarassing, showing a lack of faith in god and everlasting life. Trying to stop death from natural causes is viewed with the same eye rolling as a kid trying to stop puberty or a middle aged woman trying to stop menopause.

And this is where I get back to my earlier comment. If you are going to say everyone is entitled to their own religion you have to realize what a religion is at heart.
A vastly different way of looking at the world, down the core concepts of right and wrong, of socially acceptable and not.

A parents child is an 'individual', they don't own him/her, and don't have the 'right' to
decide their life or death, they are responsible for loving, caring, feeding, putting a
roof over their childs head, educating their child, but not killing him/her. That child can decide that for themselves when they are old enough to do so, as the parents can do forthemselves. We, on this earth will
always step up to protect any child from parents who try to interfere with the life
of their child, just as they think we are trying interfere. The child is not an object
that can be put to death by someone elses hand.
The child hasn't been given the chance to grow up and decide if he/she wants to live or die, they just obey,
or not, and if they are that sick, they don't know how to obey or not obey anyway.
If an adult wants to let 'themselves' die for religious reasons, so be it, that is their right.
Religions can preach all of that poppycock all they want to, the child still has the right to
live, then make his/her own decision concerning his/her own life, no one else has any
right to do that
Making a decision that a child should die is 'slightly' different that making the decision that the child should live.

 

[Zzarchov]

And you are to decide what constitutes right and wrong?

Consider this, hypothetical. Lets say they are right, lets just assume for some reason, their faith is correct.

Now their daughter is in heaven.

If they listened to you, they may be dooming their daughter to hell.

While you may not consider a parent the one who can determine s childs interests, do you think a stranger is any better?

Part of a free society is being a free society, and the downsides of lack of control. The other option is a controlled society, with the downside of hoping the ones in charge are entirely benevolent.

But you will never get a utopia.

 

[talloola]

And you are to decide what constitutes right and wrong?

Consider this, hypothetical. Lets say they are right, lets just assume for some reason, their faith is correct.

Now their daughter is in heaven.

If they listened to you, they may be dooming their daughter to hell.

While you may not consider a parent the one who can determine s childs interests, do you think a stranger is any better?

Part of a free society is being a free society, and the downsides of lack of control. The other option is a controlled society, with the downside of hoping the ones in charge are entirely benevolent.

But you will never get a utopia.

It doesn't matter what they think, they don't have the right to make decisions for
another human being, only for themselves, and the law will protect their daughter
from them trying to do that, if, and when their daughter becomes an adult and decides
those things for herself, then that is another matter.
The law will protect any child from the parents passing their religious belief onto their
child, or any other belief that would harm their child, such as 'not feeding', or 'beating'
'or locking up', etc., as all of those things could also be done for religious beliefs,
according to certain parents.
People can believe whatever they want to, I don't care, but I do care what they try
to do to their children, all children belong to all of us, and we cannot stand by while
any parent or anyone else does them harm. What about parents who have sex with
their children, and say that it is their belief and religion that allows this, it is for
the good of the family. Give me a break, the law will step in and 'stop' it, as they
should in a life or death matter as well.

 

[Zzarchov]

So then you don't agree with freedom of religion?

Thats fine, state control over parents wishes it is.

Like when the state decided, that since children belong to all of us, we should sterilize those who may be mentally defective. After all, it was better for them to never be able to breed.

Or when governments decide children are better off away from their parents, being raised by a "proper" culture, people who thought the right way, spoke the right language, had the right religion.

such as Australia (aborigines), America (natives and Cajuns), and Canada (natives)

 

[talloola]

So then you don't agree with freedom of religion?

Thats fine, state control over parents wishes it is.

Like when the state decided, that since children belong to all of us, we should sterilize those who may be mentally defective. After all, it was better for them to never be able to breed.

Or when governments decide children are better off away from their parents, being raised by a "proper" culture, people who thought the right way, spoke the right language, had the right religion.

such as Australia (aborigines), America (natives and Cajuns), and Canada (natives)

We don't vote in governments who do those things, that would have been hitler, and
such. You know that, so don't make up stories that will not apply do our lives. Being
allowed to do 'anything' you want to your children, and then hide behind 'freedom of
religion' act, would be letting people do what you described above, as many people
have and will do many awful things to their children, from time to time.

We all feel very sad for the little girl who was so cruelly treated by her parents, she
needed protection, as they killed her, she had a right to a life. Only she, should be
allowed to decide if 'she's wanted to live or die, as an adult, and, as a child she could
have lived, if they could have been caught earlier, those kinds of people are mentally
derranged, their religion has taken their minds beyond sanity and clear thought, and
AGAIN, if they want to have those thoughts, they should be for themselves only, not
for others. And AGAIN, their child is not their possession that they own, she is an
individual, a person, a live human being, not something you snuff out, you only do
that to yourself.
How about the people who 'murder' others, then say that god told them to do that,
should they be let go and forgiven by the state, cause it is religion, and no one can
interfere with that? Absolutely not. Those people are mentally incompetent, just
as her parents are, and the other children better be watched too, maybe they are
next.

 

[gerryh]

We don't vote in governments who do those things, that would have been hitler, and
such. You know that, so don't make up stories that will not apply do our lives.

Boy are you so wrong.....

 

[talloola]

Boy are you so wrong.....

No I'm not wrong, you must be living in the wrong country, check your address.

 

[gerryh]

No I'm not wrong, you must be living in the wrong country, check your address.

WHo the hell do you think put the First Nation children into residential schools? A duly elected Canadian Government....look up the "Duplessis orphans".....:roll:

 

[talloola]

No I'm not wrong, you must be living in the wrong country, check your address.
Don't show some examples generations ago, this is today.
This little girl was killed by her parents in the 'present', it is so simple, you can't murder
people, and you can't decide if they should be murdured or not, you can't murder people
and then put the name god on the deed, and say it is OK.

 

[gerryh]

Generations ago? What the hell are you talking about....the victims of these crimes are stil alive..... open your god damn eyes.

 

[gerryh]

and these 2 horrendous examples are exactley why the "state" should be at arms length from the "family".

 

[MikeyDB]

Zzarchov

The nature of "belief" and in particular "god-belief".

Experience teaches/suggests/supports hypotheses and predictability. Of course some things aren’t predictable despite direct experience of some phenomena. An asteroid or any sizeable chunk of rock hurtling through space could impact the earth. We have evidence that this kind of phenomena happens with some frequency greater than some other kinds of phenomenal experiences.

As humankind questions and examines tests and hypothesize about the causal impetus responsible for experiential phenomena a great deal has been learned. Our quest for knowledge irrespective (for the moment) of some negative consequences that proceed from both reasonable and unreasonable assumption and practice with newly discovered/developed understandings of the nature of our existence, has served to lengthen human life by identifying conditions and components inhering to this experience of being that have foreshortened the lifespan of human beings since the beginning. The existence of bacterium and hypotheses regarding some potential effect or interrelationship with the complex organisms that occupy this little corner of the universe began as an “idea”.

Muon and Tau particles are unstable and exist in nature for a very short time.

“Remarkably, it turns out there is five times more material in clusters of galaxies than we would expect from the galaxies and hot gas we can see. Most of the stuff in clusters of galaxies is invisible and, since these are the largest structures in the Universe held together by gravity, scientists then conclude that most of the matter in the entire Universe is invisible. This invisible stuff is called 'dark matter'. There is currently much ongoing research by scientists attempting to discover exactly what this dark matter is, how much there is, and what effect it may have on the future of the Universe as a whole.”

dark matter
“Name given to the amount of mass whose existence is deduced from the analysis of galaxy rotation curves but which until now, has escaped all detections. There are many theories on what dark matter could be. Not one, at the moment is convincing enough and the question is still a mystery.”


“On 1 December 1975, a *paper published in Physical Review Letters described the first evidence for a new heavy relation for the electron. Martin Perl and colleagues working at the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center (SLAC) had discovered the tau, a particle that behaves like the electron but which is about 3600 times heavier. The tau, the electron and the muon (which is about 210 times as heavy as the electron) together belong to the family of particles known as leptons. Perl was rewarded for his discovery with the Nobel prize in 1995.”

“The Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is a gigantic scientific instrument near Geneva, where it spans the border between Switzerland and France about 100 m underground. It is a particle accelerator used by physicists to study the smallest known particles – the fundamental building blocks of all things. It will revolutionise our understanding, from the miniscule world deep within atoms to the vastness of the Universe.”

From humankind’s curiosity about the nature of his existence to fMRI and electron microscopes to the Large Hadron Collider in Switzerland to the Hubble Space Telescope and COBE Probes, every avenue every adventure in discovery compels us to consider something beyond what we already “know” or assume we know and/or understand about the nature of the existence we occupy.

Like dark matter, we have experienced some dead-ends in our quest for knowledge and we find in the science of genetics and diseases that our knowledge and understanding are similarly plagued with unanswered questions.

It’s important to make a distinction between absence of evidence and evidence of absence.

Bacteria exist. Leptons and quarks exist. At some time (not that long ago in fact) speculation about the existence of these phenomenon didn’t exist.

Perhaps someone “believed” these amazing things existed…what would inspire or generate these “beliefs” in invisible matter and organisms? Belief in the existence of enormous forces that exist around us and throughout the universe and that we use without really understanding? We can calculate gravitational affect on rockets and spaceships but we have only the “theory” of gravity described by mathematics and scientists attempting to describe the “nature” of these invisible but critical components of our experience of existence.

You are free to “believe” whatever you wish to believe.

We experience something called “love” and although we can measure neurotransmitter levels and watch as fMRI and electroencephalogram sketch the dynamic changes within human chemistry during the experience of “love” this phenomenon remains very much like gravity. All around us and significantly impactful but without substance of any kind.

Maybe this is like the “god belief”, without substance but certainly at least as impactful as love or hate or anger envy and lust….

Why does the practice of quantifying and analysing substance and force yield substantially greater “belief” than does the anecdotal and highly interprative cognition/experience of emotional states?

Because “belief” in this sense means reasonable familiarity and sufficient understanding to form hypotheses that lead to repeatable outcomes from prediction.

No such thing, no similar predictability or overarching hypothesis that satisfies all reasonable ideas capable of consistently describing the nature of “god” exists.

There has never been an hypothesis of any kind based on the assumption of an interrelationship between “god” (of any description) and the human experience that can be identified as substantively attributable to the existence of this pehenomenon.

Until that occurs, belief in god will remain entirely emotional in character without any reasonable proof to support the claim.

 

[talloola]

Generations ago? What the hell are you talking about....the victims of these crimes are stil alive..... open your god damn eyes.

and also 'exsposed' for what they did and who they are, what goes round comes around.

the mistakes were made, we know and have learned, and governments don't have that
kind of power any more. don't live in the past, be happy we have all learned, and are
watching, and also, as long as the world goes round, individuals will do what they do,
and it is not always the right thing. Governments can be kicked out in the next election,
we don't live in the middle east, this is canada, see the good of our country, or move to
the middle east for awhile, you'll come crawling back begging to get in, (if you're still
alive).
And because of these past mistakes, what really is your point, these sicko parents should
have been allowed to kill their child, (their weapon was neglect), they are murderers,
and you are defending that.

don't swear at me again:angry3:

 

[gerryh]

and also 'exsposed' for what they did and who they are, what goes round comes around.

the mistakes were made, we know and have learned, and governments don't have that
kind of power any more. don't live in the past, be happy we have all learned, and are
watching, and also, as long as the world goes round, individuals will do what they do,
and it is not always the right thing. Governments can be kicked out in the next election,
we don't live in the middle east, this is canada, see the good of our country, or move to
the middle east for awhile, you'll come crawling back begging to get in, (if you're still
alive).

don't swear at me again:angry3:

Excuse me? Arrogant and ignorant little piss ant..aren't ya..... these things didn't happen that long ago, and if you think it can't happen again,:roll: ... read my sig...it applies to you.

 

[gopher]

If it were up to me, the parents would be charged with a homicide.

 

[gerryh]

If it were up to me, the parents would be charged with a homicide.

agreed

 

[talloola]

Excuse me? Arrogant and ignorant little piss ant..aren't ya..... these things didn't happen that long ago, and if you think it can't happen again,:roll: ... read my sig...it applies to you.

It would not happen again, not in this age, after what we have learned, and I repeat, what individuals do behind closed doors to children, (just as these parents did) can't
be stopped by anyone, but we can all learn from those actions.

Exactly what is a piss ant, i'm sure you know, educate all of us, it's about at your level
of thought.
When people start name calling and swearing, they are about to soil themselves, oh well.
i'm sure you have a big box of depends in the drawer. extra large? no doubt!!!:-?

 

[Vereya]

And now they have the attention of faithfully waiting for God to help them out of their mess (ie, asking for more prayers and support from their church).

I wonder, would anyone support them now? I'm sure I wouldn't!

 

[Vereya]

Sadly I'm related to a bunch of people with the very belief that "God" chooses what should happen in their lives - including the marriage to a very evil man In some ways I want to help those people, and in some ways I want to have nothign to do with them.

You can only help those, who want to be helped. As long as a person doesn't realize that there is something very wrong in her life that can be set right, there's nothing you can do :-(