Palestinian Israeli conflict - History and Current Events

[#juan]

Re: Palestinian Israeli conflict - History and Current Event

Graeme wrote:

I am pretty sure the only nation in or around the middle east to never start a war by attacking is Israel and the Jewish people.

That is a little heavy Graeme. Israel has done more than their share of war-mongering.

The 1967 War and the
Israeli Occupation of the
West Bank and Gaza

Did the Egyptians actually start the 1967 war, as Israel originally claimed?

"The former Commander of the Air Force, General Ezer Weitzman, regarded as a hawk, stated that there was 'no threat of destruction' but that the attack on Egypt, Jordan and Syria was nevertheless justified so that Israel could 'exist according the scale, spirit, and quality she now embodies.'...Menahem Begin had the following remarks to make: 'In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.' "Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."

Was the 1967 war defenisve? - continued

"I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it." Yitzhak Rabin, Israel's Chief of Staff in 1967, in Le Monde, 2/28/68

Moshe Dayan posthumously speaks out on the Golan Heights

"Moshe Dayan, the celebrated commander who, as Defense Minister in 1967, gave the order to conquer the Golan...[said] many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and the kibbutz residents who pressed the Government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for the farmland...[Dayan stated] 'They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land...We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot.

And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was...The Syrians, on the fourth day of the war, were not a threat to us.'" The New York Times, May 11, 1997

The history of Israeli expansionism

"The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan; one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today. But the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them." David Ben-Gurion, in 1936, quoted in Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."

Expansionism - continued

 

[Graeme]

RE: Palestinian Israeli conflict - History and Current Event

Juan where do you get your B.S. from

Jordan had set up troops on the israeli border and at the same time Egypt sent UN officials from the Egyptian-Israeli border and increased its military activity near the border, and blocked access of the Strait of Tiran to Israeli ships.

Then Israel launched a pre-emptive attack on Egypt's airforce knowing of the imminent attack by Egypt and Jordan. Jordan not knowing Egypt's airforce had essentially been eliminated before it left the ground attacked the Israeli cities of Jerusalem and Netanya. At the end of the war, Israel had gained control of the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights.

 

[#juan]

Re: Palestinian Israeli conflict - History and Current Event

You still can't have a civil argument can you Graeme.

You of all people, should know that the people I quoted are Jewish. If you look a little closer and do a bit of objective research, you will find that all the wars involving Israel started with an Israeli "preemptive" attack.

 

[#juan]

Re: Palestinian Israeli conflict - History and Current Event

This is one of the better sites for what I think is a concise, accurate, account of this conflict.

http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html

 

[earth_as_one]

RE: Palestinian Israeli conflict - History and Current Event

Its pretty hard to say who started these wars. Certainly we've been fed a lot of BS by the media on this subject.

But when the Jewish refugees defeated the Egyptian, Jordan, Syria... armies and took control of Palestine, they had a responsibilty to protect the civilians living there. Most of these people did not participate in the war.

Israel ethnic/religious cleansing Palestine of most of its original inhabitants were war crimes and crimes against humanity.

The 700,000 thousand or so people initially cleansed from the land in 1948 were not soldiers. They were men, women and children... young and old... farmers, merchants and peasants. Very few were soldiers or militants. Few actually took up arms against Israel.

When we talk about Israel's creation, we are essentially talking about the use of military force to eradicate an entire society of people which had coexisted more or less peacefully for hundreds of years in order to create a new society consisting mostly of European refugees and immigrants based on religious/ethnic purity.

That's been the ongoing pattern of behavior in Israel/Palestine for the last 58 years and all the world has done is periodically condemn Israel.

Even Jewish groups oppose Israel's actions:

Jews Against the Occupation
A Jewish Voice of Opposition to the War on Palestinians
http://www.jatonyc.org/

I can't see how anyone aware of the facts can support Israel's treatment of Palestinians over the years. If you support what Israel has done, then in effect you support rape, murder, torture, ethnic cleansing, property theft...

Eventually what goes around, comes around. As time goes by, Israel's actions have served to increase the number of its enemies. Sooner or later, Israel will have to answer for its crimes.

 

[Just the Facts]

Re: RE: Palestinian Israeli conflict - History and Current E

The 700,000 thousand or so people initially cleansed from the land in 1948 were not soldiers. They were men, women and children... young and old... farmers, merchants and peasants. Very few were soldiers or militants. Few actually took up arms against Israel.

700,000 is the total. The number that were "ethnically cleansed" by the Hagenah was a tiny minority. The VAST majority of the 700,000 were the ones who stepped out of the way of what they fully expected to be an ethnic cleansing; or more precisely, a slaughter, of Jews.

Just goes to show you, be careful what you wish for.

 

[Gonzo]

Re: Palestinian Israeli conflict - History and Current Event

There will always be terrorists as long as the middle east conflict continues. We cant blame anyone at this point, just find a solution. No more pointing fingers.

 

[Hotshot]

Re: Palestinian Israeli conflict - History and Current Event

There will always be terrorists as long as the middle east conflict continues. We cant blame anyone at this point, just find a solution. No more pointing fingers.

True. There will never be peace in the middle east, so there will always be terrorists.

 

[EastSideScotian]

RE: Palestinian Israeli conflict - History and Current Event

Juan where do you get your B.S. from

Jordan had set up troops on the israeli border and at the same time Egypt sent UN officials from the Egyptian-Israeli border and increased its military activity near the border, and blocked access of the Strait of Tiran to Israeli ships.

Then Israel launched a pre-emptive attack on Egypt's airforce knowing of the imminent attack by Egypt and Jordan. Jordan not knowing Egypt's airforce had essentially been eliminated before it left the ground attacked the Israeli cities of Jerusalem and Netanya. At the end of the war, Israel had gained control of the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights.

This is true.

Juan, I dont know wher eyou got your info from.

Also Earth as one.
You have pretty sketchy websites. Also, you seem to have a hate on for the state of Isreal, while I do agree the palestinen people got the short end of the stick, There is not much to do now.

Id also like to point out the fact the Palestine had always had issues with the ottoman empire, and also enjoyed starting wars and raiding lands of its neighbouring muslim countries well before The UN and the Ottman empire, so painting palestine as a peaceful place before the jews is 100% wrong. also Isreal, has yet to attack anyone, they get provoked each time.

Earth as one, it seems to me that you are posting some underhanded and mostly one sided crap.

 

[#juan]

Re: Palestinian Israeli conflict - History and Current Event

EastSideScotian wrote:[quite]Juan, I dont know wher eyou got your info from. [/quote]

Do you two have trouble reading? I provided the following link. Here it is yet again.


http://www.cactus48.com/truth.htm

 

[EastSideScotian]

Re: Palestinian Israeli conflict - History and Current Event

EastSideScotian wrote:[quite]Juan, I dont know wher eyou got your info from.

Do you two have trouble reading? I provided the following link. Here it is yet again.


http://www.cactus48.com/truth.htm[/quote]
Oh so because you have a web link means its correct?

oh wait the link says Truth it must be. :roll:

Thats not how it happend. But thank you for telling me where you got your info.

 

[earth_as_one]

Re: RE: Palestinian Israeli conflict - History and Current E

..
700,000 is the total. The number that were "ethnically cleansed" by the Hagenah was a tiny minority. The VAST majority of the 700,000 were the ones who stepped out of the way of what they fully expected to be an ethnic cleansing; or more precisely, a slaughter, of Jews.

Just goes to show you, be careful what you wish for.

Are you sure that's vast majority of these people were thinking when they left. Can you provide a link to an opinion poll taken at the time?

Excuse me if I don't take your word. I consider Israeli Historian Benny Morris's comments based on recently declassified information from Israel's own archives a more accurate source than you.

Benny Morris:

"There are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide - the annihilation of your people - I prefer ethnic cleansing."

And that was the situation in 1948?

"That was the situation. That is what Zionism faced. A Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. Therefore it was necessary to uproot them. There was no choice but to expel that population. It was necessary to cleanse the hinterland and cleanse the border areas and cleanse the main roads. It was necessary to cleanse the villages from which our convoys and our settlements were fired on."

The term `to cleanse' is terrible.

"I know it doesn't sound nice but that's the term they used at the time...

http://www.counterpunch.org/shavit01162004.html

See also previous references re: Benny Morris above.

The information Benny Morris found in Israeli archives more or less confirms Palestinians at that time risked murder, rape, execution, torture if they stayed. Soldiers only allowed them to take what they could carry and some robbed them of their valuables... See Father Rantisi's account below.

Imagine how the Israeli refugees must have felt moving into fully furnished homes complete with family portraits, children's art work... They had to know.

Other villages were razed to the ground and all traces removed. Later these areas would become residential areas, shopping malls, parking lots, airports... People can walk over land that used to be a village 58 years ago and not even know it.

700,000 was just the first wave. Since then Israel has caused wave after wave of people refugees.

Palestinian refugee

A Palestinian refugee: In the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, a Palestinian refugee is a refugee from Palestine created by the Palestinian Exodus, which Palestinians call the Nakba (نكبة, meaning "disaster" or "catastrophe").

The UN definition of a "Palestinian refugee" includes all their descendants, now numbering slightly over 4 million people (see UNRWA).

About two thirds of Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled from the territories which came under Israeli control after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. This exodus continued during the war until after the armistice that ended it (see Palestinian Exodus.) These refugees, the great majority of whom had lived there for generations, were generally not permitted to return to their homes.

The number of refugees who fled or expelled is controversial. Estimates range from a low-end figure of around 400,000 claimed by the Israeli governemnt, to a UN estimate of 711,000 [1]. By 1950, according to United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), the number of registered refugees was 914,000.[2]...

...Current Palestinian refugee counts include:

Gaza 923,000 refugees
Jordan 2,540,000 refugees
Lebanon 695,000 refugees
Syria 584,000 refugees
West Bank 665,000 refugees
Egypt 70,000 refugees
Saudi Arabia 240,000
[4][5]

The Israeli government passed the Absentee Property Law, which cleared the way for the confiscation of the property of refugees. The government also demolished many of the refugees' villages, and resettled many Arab homes in urban communities with Jewish refugees and immigrants.

The situation of the Palestinian Arab refugees is one of the world's largest and most enduring refugee problems. Discussions to allow them to return to their former homes within Israel, to receive compensation or be resettled in new locations have yet to reach a definite conclusion.

Who is a Palestinian refugee?...

http://www.answers.com/topic/palestinian-refugee

Its a myth that these people left willingly. As Benny Morris points out they were purposely, systematical ethnically cleansed by military force and the threat of military force. Personal safety is the reason why people fled.

Here is a personal account by Palestinian refuge Father Audeh Rantisi

Father Audeh Rantisi remembers the horrific scenes that confronted him, aged 11, when his family were brutally deported from their home of many generations to make what life they could for themselves in the refugee camps of Ramallah

Father Rantisi was born in Lyda, now the site of Ben Gurion Airport, in 1937. From 1955 to 1958 he attended the Bible College of Wales, moving in 1963 to continue his studies at Aurora College in the state of Illinois. He then served as a missionary in Sudan. In 1965 he opened the Evangelical Home for Boys in Ramallah, West Bank. In 1976 Father Rantisi was elected as Ramallah's deputy mayor and he is now the director of the orphanage of the Evangelical Home of Boys.

From "Blessed are the Peacemakers ...The History of a Palestinian Christian"

I cannot forget three horror-filled days in July of 1948. The pain sears my memory, and I cannot rid myself of it no matter how hard I try.

First, Israeli soldiers forced thousands of Palestinians from their homes near the Mediterranean coast, even though some families had lived in the same houses for centuries. (My family had been in the town of Lydda in Palestine at least 1,600 years).

Then, without water, we stumbled into the hills and continued for three deadly days. The Jewish soldiers followed, occasionally shooting over our heads to scare us and keep us moving. Terror filled my eleven-year-old mind as I wondered what would happen. I remembered overhearing my father and his friends express alarm about recent massacres by Jewish terrorists. Would they kill us, too?

We did not know what to do, except to follow orders and stumble blindly up the rocky hills. I walked hand in hand with my grandfather, who carried our only remaining possessions-a small tin of sugar and some milk for my aunt's two-year-old son, sick with typhoid.

The horror began when Zionist soldiers deceived us into leaving our homes, then would not let us go back, driving us through a small gate just outside Lydda. I remember the scene well: thousands of frightened people being herded like cattle through the narrow opening by armed soldiers firing overhead. In front of me a cart wobbled toward the gate. Alongside, a lady struggled, carrying her baby, pressed by the crowd. Suddenly, in the jostling of the throngs, the child fell. The mother shrieked in agony as the cart's metal-rimmed wheel ran over her baby's neck. That infant's death was the most awful sight I had ever seen.

Outside the gate the soldiers stopped us and ordered everyone to throw all valuables onto a blanket. One young man and his wife of six weeks, friends of our family, stood near me. He refused to give up his money. Almost casually, the soldier pulled up his rifle and shot the man. He fell, bleeding and dying while his bride screamed and cried. I felt nauseated and sick, my whole body numbed by shock waves. That night I cried, too, as I tried to sleep alongside thousands on the ground. Would I ever see my home again? Would the soldiers kill my loved ones, too?

Early the next morning we heard more shots and sprang up. A bullet just missed me and killed a donkey nearby. Everybody started running as a stampede. I was terror-stricken when I lost sight of my family, and I frantically searched all day as the crowd moved along.

That second night, after the soldiers let us stop, I wandered among the masses of people, desperately searching and calling. Suddenly in the darkness...

http://www.alnakba.org/testimony/audeh.htm

Does Father Rantisi's account sound like people left their homes out of greed or a desire to kill Jews?

I feel sad for people who can't recognize injustice when they see it. To be so blind to the suffering of your fellow human beings... I can't understand that.

Humanity seems destined to repeat this same mistake over and over.

Related:

..."The Zionists were by far the more powerful and better organized force, and by May 1948, when the state of Israel was formally established, about 300,000 Palestinians already had been expelled from their homes or had fled the fighting, and the Zionists controlled a region well beyond the area of the original Jewish state that had been proposed by the UN. 62 Now it's then that Israel was attacked by its neighbors - in May 1948; it's then, after the Zionists had taken control of this much larger part of the region and hundreds of thousands of civilians had been forced out, not before." pp. 131-132 Understanding Power: The Indispensable Chomsky...

http://www.representativepress.org/Sources.html

 

[earth_as_one]

Re: Palestinian Israeli conflict - History and Current Event

There will always be terrorists as long as the middle east conflict continues. We cant blame anyone at this point, just find a solution. No more pointing fingers.

It not fingerpointing to point out how our perception of the middle east have been distorted by media coverage. That's my point.

The topic is Palestinian Israeli conflict - History and Current Events.

 

[earth_as_one]

Re: Palestinian Israeli conflict - History and Current Event

There will always be terrorists as long as the middle east conflict continues. We cant blame anyone at this point, just find a solution. No more pointing fingers.

True. There will never be peace in the middle east, so there will always be terrorists.

Never? I doubt that's true. The middle east has experienced periods of peace in the past. We are in a period of war. Its been that way since WW I. But sooner or later peace will come. I just hope it doesn't come in the form of a barren nuclear cratered wasteland. But peace will come. How remains undetermined.

 

[earth_as_one]

Re: RE: Palestinian Israeli conflict - History and Current E

Juan where do you get your B.S. from

Jordan had set up troops on the israeli border and at the same time Egypt sent UN officials from the Egyptian-Israeli border and increased its military activity near the border, and blocked access of the Strait of Tiran to Israeli ships.

Then Israel launched a pre-emptive attack on Egypt's airforce knowing of the imminent attack by Egypt and Jordan. Jordan not knowing Egypt's airforce had essentially been eliminated before it left the ground attacked the Israeli cities of Jerusalem and Netanya. At the end of the war, Israel had gained control of the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights.

This is true.

Juan, I dont know wher eyou got your info from.

Also Earth as one.
You have pretty sketchy websites. Also, you seem to have a hate on for the state of Isreal, while I do agree the palestinen people got the short end of the stick, There is not much to do now.

Id also like to point out the fact the Palestine had always had issues with the ottoman empire, and also enjoyed starting wars and raiding lands of its neighbouring muslim countries well before The UN and the Ottman empire, so painting palestine as a peaceful place before the jews is 100% wrong. also Isreal, has yet to attack anyone, they get provoked each time.

Earth as one, it seems to me that you are posting some underhanded and mostly one sided crap.

My sources include the BBC, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Israeli Historians...

How much better sources do my adversaries in this debate give? I don't see any sources. They have opinions based on what the idiot box tells them. I suggest you keep an open mind, follow my links, consider the source, read what they have to say, make up your own mind. Don't let some talking head on the idiot box give you an opinion.

Regarding the Ottoman management of Palestine. I can say the Ottomans were more fair and Jews were far safer, than Jews in Europe.

I don't deny Jews experienced discrimination and suffered atrocities under the Ottomans, but I think this fact is worth knowing about this subject:

There has been a Jewish community in Turkey (Asia Minor) since the 4th century B.C. such as in Sardis. According to the Old Testament, the prophet Abraham was born in Ur in Chaldea. Near the Euphrates (Firat) river, there is a historic and ancient city called Sanliurfa whose initial name was Ur. Jewish communities in Asia Minor continued to prosper throughout the Turkish conquest under Seljuks and Ottomans.

In modern times after the Republic, in the late 1930's and early 1940?s, Turkey again opened its homes and universities to Jews who had fled from Nazi oppression and persecution. In 1933 Ataturk invited to Turkey many university professors of Jewish origin who were threatened by Nazi cruelty. In the beginning of the 19th Century Turkey was home to more than 100,000 Jews

Today Turkey's total Jewish population is around 26,000 (the second largest Jewish community in a Muslim country, being the first is Iran), with a great majority living in Istanbul. In 1992 the community celebrated the 500th anniversary of its existence in Turkey since the spring of 1492, when they came to Istanbul and accepted by the sultan Beyazit II shortly after the Moors were driven out of Granada, Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain expelled all the Jews from their lands and ended the largest Jewish settlement in Europe. The community is 96% Sephardi, the rest is Ashkenazis. There are also about 100 Karaites live in Turkey, but usually they don't consider themselves a part of the Jewish community and don't take any part in its activities.

The Jewish people in Turkey contributed immensely to the economic, cultural and political life during the times of the Ottoman Empire and the Turkish Republic after the War of Liberation led by Ataturk.

The Jewish community of Turkey is recognized by the State through its Chief Rabbinate, and Chief Rabbi is called "Haham Basi" in Turkish.

http://www.allaboutturkey.com/jews.htm

Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire. (modern day Turkey) and treated Jews the same way before Zionism.

 

[Graeme]

Re: RE: Palestinian Israeli conflict - History and Current E

Terror filled my eleven-year-old mind

Oh great reference!



earth_as_one, could you please explain why the Arabs who did stay were given israeli citizen-ship if israel was trying to kick them out??

 

[Just the Facts]

Re: RE: Palestinian Israeli conflict - History and Current E

Are you sure that's vast majority of these people were thinking when they left. Can you provide a link to an opinion poll taken at the time?

Yes I'm reasonably confident. As for opinion polls, I'll leave those for political strategists. I'm more interested in facts. 8)

Excuse me if I don't take your word. I consider Israeli Historian Benny Morris's comments based on recently declassified information from Israel's own archives a more accurate source than you.

I count on you not taking my word. That's how I learn, assess, re-assess, establish confidence in my position, or change my mind as appropriate.
Benny Morris's reveionist history is not uncontroversial. Ironically the passage you quote below is one of the hallmarks of criticism against him, based on mistranslation. What he calls cleanse, is apparently more accurately translated as clear.

Benny Morris:

The term `to cleanse' is terrible.

"I know it doesn't sound nice but that's the term they used at the time...

Ironic, ain't it.

However, since you're a fan of Mr. Morris, he's some more quotes of his you can spread around the forums:


As for the near future, Israel must get out of most of the West Bank and from Gaza and East Jerusalem, with or without an agreement, and a fence will separate the two peoples (and if the Palestinians see it as prison, they are the ones responsible for its construction).

A general comment on the matter of ethnic cleansing: I am aware that "ethnic cleansing" is not politically correct and is morally problematic. But, what can we do - the history of the 20th century is replete with instances of ethnic cleansing that occurred under catastrophic circumstances and were ultimately beneficial for humanity, including for the expulsees themselves...

...One more thing: Among the biggest religio-ethnic cleansers in human history, in the distant past and in our time, has been the Arab Islamic nation. Mohammed and his men cleansed the Arabian Peninsula of its Jewish tribes, in part through the mass slaughter of the men and the enslavement and forced conversion of the young women. (According to the Koran, in one day, Mohammed's men massacred 800-900 men of the Bani Qureiza tribe - a larger number than all the Arab victims of Jewish massacres through the whole of the 1948 war.) In the ensuing centuries, the Muslim empires and the Arab states, with the help of the pogrom and the law, uprooted from their midst or forcibly converted most of their Christian communities and ethnically cleansed themselves of their Jewish
communities. Has a single word of criticism about any of this history ever been voiced by MK Mohammed Barakeh and Dr. Haggai Ram and their friends? (And, by the way, every Jewish community that was conquered by the Arab armies in the course of the 1948 war, including the Jewish Quarter in the Old City, was ethnically cleansed and every site was completely leveled.)

In the modern age, no one has been more racist and more intolerant of "the other" - Kurd, Jew, Sudanese Christian and animist, Maronite Christian, etc. - than the Arab states. The constitution of Jordan, one of the more moderate Islamic Arab states, even includes a clause prohibiting Jews from being Jordanian citizens. The Arabs' attempt to annihilate the Jewish Yishuv [pre-state community in Palestine] in 1948 compelled Israel to uproot them from the Jewish territory...

...see the Hamas charter and the official political manifests of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, who represent at least half of the Palestinians in the territories, which routinely refer to the Jews, in accordance with Islamic
tradition, as "sons of monkeys and pigs," "killers of prophets" and as "lowly people." Yes, I will stick to the definition "savage beasts" to describe suicide bombers who are prepared to massacre dozens or even thousands of civilians in buses and skyscrapers in cities in Israel and the West.

In 2000, the Palestinians, led by Yasser Arafat, began a war that combined the three dimensions I've mentioned and whose ultimate objective is the destruction of Israel (or, "flying the flag of Palestine over the walls of Jerusalem," as Arafat coyly puts it) - just as Saladin destroyed the Crusader Kingdom. In Arafat's eyes, we are the "new Crusaders." This is the main reason why Arafat, in the name of the Palestinian people and without argument on the part of his colleagues, rejected the Barak-Clinton peace proposals of December 2000, which included Israeli withdrawal from about 95 percent of the West Bank and from 100 percent of the Gaza Strip, the evacuation of most of the settlements, and the establishment of a Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital. He rejected the proposals because he and his people want the entire country (their intransigence over the "right of return" is not a tactical matter).

And in so doing, Arafat remained consistent with the rejectionist heritage of his people, who in 1937 rejected the compromise proposed by the Peel Commission; in 1947-48, rejected the compromise proposed by the UN (the Partition Proposal); and in 1978, rejected the Egyptian-Israeli compromise
(the Camp David Accords, in which the Palestinians were offered autonomy, which would in time have evolved into a Palestinian state).

How do you like him now? :wink:

700,000 was just the first wave. Since then Israel has caused wave after wave of people refugees.

I can't accept that subsequent generations can be categorized as "waves" of refugees. If that were the case, pretty much every human on the planet can claim refugee status.

I feel sad for people who can't recognize injustice when they see it. To be so blind to the suffering of your fellow human beings... I can't understand that.

Who can't recognize injustice or see suffering? The atrocities of the Hagenah were acknowledged and undenied. Even in this thread, if I recall correctly. Lydda was one of those places. It is not evidence that the majority of the 700,000 were escorted out at gunpoint (like my Mother and her family were). Bad things happened, for sure.

 

[earth_as_one]

Re: RE: Palestinian Israeli conflict - History and Current E

Terror filled my eleven-year-old mind

Oh great reference!



earth_as_one, could you please explain why the Arabs who did stay were given israeli citizen-ship if israel was trying to kick them out??

Do you consider their accounts of children who survived the holocaust accurate?

These people are geting old now, but a few are still alive:

Deir Yassin

TESTIMONY II: Um Mahmud, wife of Abu Mahmud, was 15 years old at the time.

"We were inside the house. We heard shooting outside. My mother woke us up. We knew the Jews had attacked us. My cousin and his sister came running and said the Jews were already in our garden. In the meantime, fighting became heavier and we heard lots of gunshots outside. A bomb was thrown at us and it exploded close to where we were in the yard. (..) My sister- in-law did not want to leave. She was frightened. The girl was two months old and the boy about three. I took the two and my mother said we should go to my uncle’s house.

I saw how Hilweh Zeidan was killed, along with her husband, her son, her brother and Khumayyes. Hilweh Zeidan went out to collect the body of her husband. They shot her and she fell over his body.(..) I also saw Hayat Bilbeissi, a nurse from Jerusalem serving in the village, as she was shot before the house door of Musa Hassan. The daughter of Abu El Abed was shot dead as she held her niece, a baby. The baby was shot too.(..) Whomever tried to run away was shot dead."

http://www.alnakba.org/testimony/abu.htm

Israeli testimony about Deir Yassin

Deir Yassin was a village near the entrance to Jerusalem, north west of Givat Shaul. Not wishing to endanger itself, it had concluded a peace pact with Givat Shaul that was approved by Yitzhak Navon, who headed the Arab division of Haganah intelligence. A similar pact was made by the village of Abu Ghosh. There is every indication that Deir Yassin kept to this pact. They had repeatedly and actively resisted alliances and offers of help from irregulars headquartered in Ein Kerem,3 though it is possible that some Palestinian irregulars were quartered there against the will of the inhabitants. The village was separated from the Jerusalem road by a high ridge, and villagers could only reach the main road through Givat Shaul. There was no possibility of controlling the main road or firing on the main road from the village. Estimates of village population at the time range from 450 to 1,200, including refugees from nearby Romema and Lifta. 4

The Attack

At the beginning of April Irgun and Lehi commanders met and decided to attack Deir Yassin. They rejected suggestions by their own commanders, and by Haganah commander David Shaltiel, to attack strategically important targets (Sheikh Jerakh, Ein Kerem, Qoloniya) because they felt they were too difficult for their inexperienced and ill-equipped soldiers. 5They investigated and found, to the best of their knowledge, that Deir Yassin was a quiet and peaceful village, and decided to attack it nonetheless. It was later claimed that Deir Yassin served as a base of attacks and or quartered foreign soldiers, but these were not part of the considerations involved in deciding upon the attack. During some of the preliminary meetings the idea of a massacre was discussed and rejected.6 David Shaltiel gave the Etzel/Lehi commanders a letter saying he had no objection to attacking the village, provided they could hold the village thereafter. 7

The Irgun and Lehi attacked on the morning of Friday April 9, 1948. The map shows the general plan of the area and of the attack. The attack went poorly, because, as Haganah intelligence reported, the two dissident groups had no training, no coordination, no knowledge of how to provide cover fire or carry out leap-frog attacks in which squads provide each other with cover in turn. While the Lehi advanced in the northeast quarter of the village, the Etzel people were unable to make any progress in the south western part of the village allotted to them, in part because of rifle sniper fire from a vantage point in the Mukhtar’s house located on the western heights. This was finally and quickly neutralized by Haganah units using a mortar sometime between 10:00 or 12:00 A.M, after which Haganah units left. 8

There was no longer any resistance, but the village did not surrender. Most of the men had fled, and perhaps there was no recognized leader who could surrender. At this point, or perhaps before, during the heat of battle itself, Etzel and Lehi soldiers began going from house to house and shooting the inhabitants, usually women and children. Groups of prisoners were also taken out of Deir Yassin and paraded on trucks in the streets of Jerusalem before jeering inhabitants before being passed over to the Arab sector. One group of about 15 to 25 men was returned to the village, taken to the village quarry and shot. This specific incident is described by then Captain Meir Pail of the Palmach. 9

References
http://www.ariga.com/peacewatch/dy/dycg.htm

Another part of Palestine a little later another story

From 1941 to 26 April 1948 I lived in JAFFA where I had a very promising law practice. I married my wife from Jerusalem in 1943 and set up my new family home in Jaffa...

...A Jewish clandestine radio was constantly broadcasting in Arabic urging the population of Jaffa to escape with their families before their houses were blown over their heads. "There will only be crows crowing from the ruins of your demolished homes." The broadcasts constantly reminded the Palestinians of the slaughter on April 9, 1948 of 250 civilians in ,the Arab village of Deir Yassin, near Jerusalem (all the victims., including pregnant women were bayoneted and dumped in the village well. Years later the Stern Gang headed by Yitzhak Shamir took credit for this heinous cold blooded massacre).

My two clerks who were brothers of the Bahai faith lived in a house with the elder brother's wife and two young children in the Manshieh Quarter close to Tel-Aviv. One night intensive Jewish fire forced them to seek shelter with another family and Jewish terrorists blew up their house. Since these were abnormal times I invited the whole family to stay in our villa until things cleared up. We thought they would also take care of our house when I traveled with my wife to Cairo where she would fly off to the USA for a reunion with her family in Honduras, and I would attend the Arab Bar Convention in Cairo on May 15, 1948.

My wife was in her 8th month pregnancy with our second daughter. She was scheduled to fly with our 2 year old first daughter on Sunday the 25th April 1948 to New York to be met by her parents who had not seen her since 1939 when they left their stone villa in Upper Baq'a Quarter, Jerusalem, liquidate their business in Honduras and return to live permanently in Jerusalem. The outbreak of World War II followed by Jewish terrorism preceding the Partition Resolution was enough to prevent them from returning.

At about 4.00 a.m. on 25 April there was a distant sound of bomb explosions from different directions of Jaffa. With the beginning of daylight the sound was becoming louder. My younger clerk had ventured downtown to explore but soon came back with a shrapnel wound in his right thigh. It was not too deep and we administered first aid to the cut. He told us that mortar bombs were dropping on the center of town including some residential areas. The bombs were coming from Tel-Aviv and Agro Bank and Bat Yam Jewish settlements. I contacted our travel agent who had made flight reservations for us from Lydda airport to Cairo. His wife was also scheduled to fly with us. He said all flights were suspended indefinitely. Then I decided to drive out of the city in my car. Our target was Amman, Transjordan, where my brother had moved his family temporarily. I drove to the house of Edmond Rock, the Honorary Consul of Transjordan to obtain visas to enter the Hashemite Kingdom of Transjordan. He readily stamped our passports, whereupon I made two attempts to drive out of the City and twice mortar bombs exploded on the highway in front of us which compelled me to make a U-turn and head back home.

I drove to the safer sea harbor area and found a couple of hundred people assembled there with suit-cases and bundles of clothes. They were in a state of panic hoping that some boat would sail into the harbor and take them out. Among them were a few friends who approached our car and asked if we wanted to be included in lists they were preparing. My wife adamantly refused as she feared the sea. I drove back home and later I joined a couple of prominent figures to call Mr. Crosby, the British District Commissioner and ask if the British had already decided to surrender Jaffa as they seemed to have done with Haifa some two weeks earlier. He denied any such intention and promised to detail army tanks to roll through the streets of Jaffa and restore confidence to the population. Shortly afterward 3 tanks passed through the main streets headed by a tank with a standing army officer holding a map of the city.

Gradually the thumping sound of mortar explosions was gradually becoming more distant. In the evening there was complete silence, but the experience had planted a sense of fear and despair in the hearts of everyone. We hardly slept that night and early in the morning I drove off with my wife and baby daughter out of the City along the only highway that lead to Yazur, Sarafand and Ramleh. This was the main route to Jerusalem. As we passed in front of the Neter Jewish Agricultural Settlement we saw a large group at the entrance gazing at all the fleeing cars and trucks and laughing. We had to take a detour to Transjordan via Ramallah. We arrived' in the late afternoon and could find no place to stay. After one night at the Philadelphia Hotel we flew in an Egyptian Beech craft to Cairo. There I met an old friend who told me that my clerk and all his family were in a refugee camp in Cairo. I could not believe that and we took the trolley to the camp. They were there and they told me that when they saw everyone else leaving they panicked and took a bus to Cairo. At that moment it suddenly dawned on me that the tragedy was far worse than I had anticipated...

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Jaffa/Jaffa/Story202.html

 

[earth_as_one]

Re: RE: Palestinian Israeli conflict - History and Current E

earth_as_one, could you please explain why the Arabs who did stay were given israeli citizen-ship if israel was trying to kick them out??

Ethnic cleansing is hard work.

800,000 Palestinians were expelled from the country and forced to become refugees in the Arab states.
150,000 Palestinians remained within the boundaries of the new State of Israel. Approximately 25% of those who remained within the state were displaced from their homes to other locations thus becoming internal refugees. (3)
In what Palestinians call “the Catastrophe,” the Palestinian populations of more than 450 of the 550 towns and villages that had existed within the area which became Israel were driven out by the Israeli army, and in many cases their homes were destroyed. (4)

Palestinians disappeared from several major towns and became a minority in others. Only two exclusively Palestinian towns remained, Nazareth and Shefa ‘Amr, which absorbed refugees from other Arab localities.

Today, Palestinians constitute 18% of the population of Israel: 1,057,800 out of a total population of 5,757,900. (5)

Successive Israeli governments have refused to treat the Palestinians as a national minority, however, and former Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin once declared that: “Arabs are merely a cultural and not a national minority.” (6) The common term used by Israelis to describe the Palestinian minority is “Israeli Arabs.” This is one manner of denying the existence of a Palestinian national contingent. Israeli governments have also tended to distinguish between the group’s different components along religious lines. One such example is the conscription of Druze men into the Israeli army while most Muslim and Christian men do not serve.

Israel has not sought to assimilate or integrate its Palestinian citizens. Rather, it has tended to exclude them from Israeli public life, and to leave them marginalised and neglected. Moreover, the Palestinian minority has not been permitted any significant degree of control over its own affairs while the government has maintained a system of tight control. (7) At the same time, it has obstructed the development of separate Palestinian institutions.

Meanwhile, successive governments have regarded the Arab community as a hostile element in the context of the ongoing Arab-Israeli conflict. Israel has been in an officially declared state of emergency from 1948 to date, with the State’s Palestinian population subjected to military rule from 1948 until 1966. Various pieces of emergency legislation authorise the state to suspend the Arab citizens’ civil rights. Despite the hopes engendered by the Oslo process, deep divisions still remain between the Jewish and Arab communities within Israel.

http://www.arabhra.org/factsheets/factsheet0.htm

Transfer

More Israeli Jews favor transfer of Palestinians, Israeli Arabs - poll finds

By Amnon Barzilai

Some 46 percent of Israel's Jewish citizens favor transferring Palestinians out of the territories, while 31 percent favor transferring Israeli Arabs out of the country, according to the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies' annual national security public opinion poll.

In 1991, 38 percent of Israel's Jewish population was in favor of transferring the Palestinians out of the territories while 24 percent supported transferring Israeli Arabs.

When the question of transfer was posed in a more roundabout way, 60 percent of respondents said that they were in favor of encouraging Israeli Arabs to leave the country.

http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/page...ontrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0

Opinion about Transfer

Arutz Sheva
Israel's War: Judged by the Hour
by Arlene Peck

...For the Israeli Arabs who have such terrible conflicts living among the dreaded Jewish infidels, now would be a perfect time for them to leave. For the Palestinian Arabs who are located in the middle of Israel, in my opinion, the only solution is transfer. The same way Beirut was able to clear out its population in just a few days, it could happen in Gaza. No, it should happen in Gaza.

After each attack on Israeli citizens, the IDF should drop leaflets and announce that 10% of a specific Palestinian Authority area will be taken back and all Arab residents will have one week to move to any Arab country. Then do it...


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=6406

 

[In Between Man]

Interim Palestine State Weighed

JERUSALEM—Israel is losing hope that it can settle the outlines of a final peace accord with the Palestinians in the coming months and instead is weighing plans that would offer them a provisional state with temporary borders, according to several officials familiar with the deliberations.

"We have to take the initiative, something that can be seen as the next step in a phased approach toward the goal of the international community—two states side by side," said a senior Israeli official.

Full article