Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but don't
- Thread starter earth_as_one
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Re: RE: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but
I'm a descendant of Alexander the Great. I want my land back, all of it!!! Egypt, Iraq, Israel, Iran, Turkey the Balkans! Now, dam it!
I'm a descendant of Alexander the Great. I want my land back, all of it!!! Egypt, Iraq, Israel, Iran, Turkey the Balkans! Now, dam it!
Re: RE: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but
You mean like Gaza? Six months ago Gaza was one of the most productive agricultural zones in the middle east.
Look at it now.
The blame points squarely at the Palestinians. Or will you say that it's Israel's fault - because they shouldn't have left?
Gaza was an opportunity for the Palestinians to prove to the world that what they say about Israel is true. They blew it. Gaza now proves to the world that what Israel says about the Palestinians is true. Sharon's legacy.
aeon said:
You mean like Gaza? Six months ago Gaza was one of the most productive agricultural zones in the middle east.
Look at it now.
The blame points squarely at the Palestinians. Or will you say that it's Israel's fault - because they shouldn't have left?
Gaza was an opportunity for the Palestinians to prove to the world that what they say about Israel is true. They blew it. Gaza now proves to the world that what Israel says about the Palestinians is true. Sharon's legacy.
Re: RE: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but
what exactly is wrong with gaza, from what ive heard reconstruction is going at a steady pace and the reason for lack of agriculture is because the Israelis destroyed all agriculture zones.
Just the Facts said:
what exactly is wrong with gaza, from what ive heard reconstruction is going at a steady pace and the reason for lack of agriculture is because the Israelis destroyed all agriculture zones.
RE: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but don
The Palestinian worker, not the people but those who
worked for the Israelis in well run ag businesses saw
the Palestinians militants destroy anything formerly
Jewish, and now their lives are picking up the pieces
and saw their own people do something stupid and so
these Palestinian workers miss what they had.
This article below does damn both the Israeli and
Palestinian not only hurting and distrusting each other
but how they utilized the water and how both use
points to score on each other.
At first, disenchantment with the PA within Gaza was accompanied by vocal support for Islamist groups, such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad.23 In November of 1994, thousands protested at the funeral of an assassinated Islamic Jihad leader, and Arafat was roughed up by protesters and forced to leave the ceremony. The media described the protest as a reaction to declining conditions, the slow pace of reform, and Arafat's "hounding" of Islamic leaders in the Territories.24 While Hamas's leaders immediately issued an apology and called for unity, the incident illustrated increasing intra-Palestinian tensions within Gaza.
Initially, Arafat responded by adopting increasingly authoritarian measures, requiring that permits be issued for public gatherings and delaying the distribution of newspapers that allegedly exaggerated the number of people involved in pro-Hamas demonstrations. Numerous petitions for Arafat to reform his methods and increase his accountability to his constituents have had little effect. Shortly after the Accord was signed Edward Said wrote that "the leadership has so misunderstood its people that there is now simmering - and frequently open - revolt more or less everywhere that Palestinians gather and live."25
Since then, however, Palestinian support for Islamic radicals has fallen. Every time a bomb explodes in Israel - and Israel responds by closing its borders to Palestinian workers and trade - there is a popular reaction against Hamas and Islamic Jihad within Gaza. The result of Palestinian disillusionment with both the PLO and the Islamists has been rising political apathy and disengagement.
http://www.library.utoronto.ca/pcs/eps/gaza/gaza1.htm
The Palestinian worker, not the people but those who
worked for the Israelis in well run ag businesses saw
the Palestinians militants destroy anything formerly
Jewish, and now their lives are picking up the pieces
and saw their own people do something stupid and so
these Palestinian workers miss what they had.
This article below does damn both the Israeli and
Palestinian not only hurting and distrusting each other
but how they utilized the water and how both use
points to score on each other.
At first, disenchantment with the PA within Gaza was accompanied by vocal support for Islamist groups, such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad.23 In November of 1994, thousands protested at the funeral of an assassinated Islamic Jihad leader, and Arafat was roughed up by protesters and forced to leave the ceremony. The media described the protest as a reaction to declining conditions, the slow pace of reform, and Arafat's "hounding" of Islamic leaders in the Territories.24 While Hamas's leaders immediately issued an apology and called for unity, the incident illustrated increasing intra-Palestinian tensions within Gaza.
Initially, Arafat responded by adopting increasingly authoritarian measures, requiring that permits be issued for public gatherings and delaying the distribution of newspapers that allegedly exaggerated the number of people involved in pro-Hamas demonstrations. Numerous petitions for Arafat to reform his methods and increase his accountability to his constituents have had little effect. Shortly after the Accord was signed Edward Said wrote that "the leadership has so misunderstood its people that there is now simmering - and frequently open - revolt more or less everywhere that Palestinians gather and live."25
Since then, however, Palestinian support for Islamic radicals has fallen. Every time a bomb explodes in Israel - and Israel responds by closing its borders to Palestinian workers and trade - there is a popular reaction against Hamas and Islamic Jihad within Gaza. The result of Palestinian disillusionment with both the PLO and the Islamists has been rising political apathy and disengagement.
http://www.library.utoronto.ca/pcs/eps/gaza/gaza1.htm
RE: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but don
Complicated problem
Despite the ongoing violence of the intifadah, about 1500 Palestinians enter the Israeli-controlled Gush Katif for work in the agricultural sector each day.
Rosen said the situation is complicated because the settlers need laborers and the government will not allow foreign workers to come into the area.
"We do work employing Arabs and Palestinians. It's one of the relationships we [still] have with them," Rosen said in a telephone interview.
"Personally I don't think they are all terrorists. They are ordinary people who want to have money and to go home. Unfortunately we pay a high price. It's a very complicated problem," Rosen said.
Although people will criticize the communities and say it is their own fault for employing Palestinians, Rosen said, not employing them is not a solution. If the Israelis don't employ the Palestinians, the terrorist groups will only pay them to join, she said.
"We can't even say after they killed our friends, 'We hate all the Arabs.' I'm more worried from the mortars," she said.
More than 1,700 mortar shells fired by Palestinian militants have fallen in the 10,000-acre Gush Katif over the last two years.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=\ForeignBureaus\archive\200211\FOR20021106d.html
Complicated problem
Despite the ongoing violence of the intifadah, about 1500 Palestinians enter the Israeli-controlled Gush Katif for work in the agricultural sector each day.
Rosen said the situation is complicated because the settlers need laborers and the government will not allow foreign workers to come into the area.
"We do work employing Arabs and Palestinians. It's one of the relationships we [still] have with them," Rosen said in a telephone interview.
"Personally I don't think they are all terrorists. They are ordinary people who want to have money and to go home. Unfortunately we pay a high price. It's a very complicated problem," Rosen said.
Although people will criticize the communities and say it is their own fault for employing Palestinians, Rosen said, not employing them is not a solution. If the Israelis don't employ the Palestinians, the terrorist groups will only pay them to join, she said.
"We can't even say after they killed our friends, 'We hate all the Arabs.' I'm more worried from the mortars," she said.
More than 1,700 mortar shells fired by Palestinian militants have fallen in the 10,000-acre Gush Katif over the last two years.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=\ForeignBureaus\archive\200211\FOR20021106d.html
Re: RE: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but
Bullstrawberry crap, it is like saying , i beat you physically on everyday basis, then one day you decide to defend yourself, then i turn aournd and tell the world, look he is evil , he is trying to hurt me.
If we want the palestinians to have the same human behavior as we do, then we must give them the same quatlity of life as we, and isrealis have, simple fact.
Just the Facts said:
Bullstrawberry crap, it is like saying , i beat you physically on everyday basis, then one day you decide to defend yourself, then i turn aournd and tell the world, look he is evil , he is trying to hurt me.
If we want the palestinians to have the same human behavior as we do, then we must give them the same quatlity of life as we, and isrealis have, simple fact.
RE: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but don
Agriculture in Gaza
In your editorial "Gaza reality check" (Aug. 19) you wrote that Jewish settlers took over "the best parts of the captured land."
Are you sure you didn't intend to write "captured sand"?
There is no arable land in the southern part of the Gaza Strip. It is one big sand pile. What the Jewish settlers did was to develop and perfect "above ground" hothouse agriculture.
Yitzhak Berman, Bet El, West Bank
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/08/21/news/edletmon.php
Agriculture in Gaza
In your editorial "Gaza reality check" (Aug. 19) you wrote that Jewish settlers took over "the best parts of the captured land."
Are you sure you didn't intend to write "captured sand"?
There is no arable land in the southern part of the Gaza Strip. It is one big sand pile. What the Jewish settlers did was to develop and perfect "above ground" hothouse agriculture.
Yitzhak Berman, Bet El, West Bank
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/08/21/news/edletmon.php
RE: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but don
DEIR AL-BALAH, Gaza Strip -- The refurbished greenhouses shine amid the rubble of Kfar Darom, a former Jewish settlement, embodying the hope that Israel's withdrawal from Gaza will drive an economic revival of this desperately poor and crowded urban strip.
Hundreds of Palestinian workers have been hired to fix up the 3,200 greenhouses in Gaza that donors bought from departing settlers and gave to the Palestinian Authority.
So far, the effort has yielded mixed results: Palestinian firms have risen to the occasion, repairing greenhouses sabotaged by departing settlers and by Palestinian looters. Some already have been planted with crops of mint, tomatoes, and lettuce and are expected to yield harvests in November.
But problems with security, obstacles to the free passage of goods through Israel, and the limited water supply -- along with pervasive corruption in the Palestinian Authority -- threaten the success of the greenhouse project and the entire Gaza economy.
http://www.boston.com/news/world/mi...ed_in_gaza/?rss_id=Boston+Globe+--+Front+Page
DEIR AL-BALAH, Gaza Strip -- The refurbished greenhouses shine amid the rubble of Kfar Darom, a former Jewish settlement, embodying the hope that Israel's withdrawal from Gaza will drive an economic revival of this desperately poor and crowded urban strip.
Hundreds of Palestinian workers have been hired to fix up the 3,200 greenhouses in Gaza that donors bought from departing settlers and gave to the Palestinian Authority.
So far, the effort has yielded mixed results: Palestinian firms have risen to the occasion, repairing greenhouses sabotaged by departing settlers and by Palestinian looters. Some already have been planted with crops of mint, tomatoes, and lettuce and are expected to yield harvests in November.
But problems with security, obstacles to the free passage of goods through Israel, and the limited water supply -- along with pervasive corruption in the Palestinian Authority -- threaten the success of the greenhouse project and the entire Gaza economy.
http://www.boston.com/news/world/mi...ed_in_gaza/?rss_id=Boston+Globe+--+Front+Page
RE: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but don
When those founders arrived, Jewish Gaza was all yearning and no agriculture: These settlements were mostly built on barren sand dunes where no one lived and nothing grew. Today it is a horticultural powerhouse, supplying two-thirds of the organic vegetables and cherry tomatoes Israel exports, and renowned for its bug-free lettuce and other leafy greens. Gaza's legal status may be complicated (it is technically an unallocated portion of the League of Nations' 1922 Palestine Mandate), but the moral status of this land is as clear as day: As a matter of justice and sweat equity, the Jewish homesteaders whose faith and hard work have made the sand dunes bloom surely have as much right to their homes in Gadid and Neveh Dekalim as the Arabs have to theirs in nearby Khan Yunis and Dir El Balah.
Yet in just 10 weeks, if Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's ''disengagement" program goes forward, the 8,000 Jews who live in Gaza -- men, women, and a great many children -- will be expelled. Their homes and property will be taken over by the Palestinian Authority. And the green revolution that has transformed Gaza's sandy wastes into a spectacular oasis of hothouses, nurseries, and gardens will almost certainly come to an end.
But Jews won't be the only victims of Sharon's plan.
At Tnuvot Katif, a large produce-packaging plant here, I watch for a while as about two dozen workers, most of them local Arabs, get heads of tall leaf lettuce ready for export. More than half of Tnuvot's 127 year-round employees are Arab; they in turn account for about 2 percent of the 3,500 Arabs employed by Gaza's Jewish firms.
During a break in the shift, I ask some of workers if they like their jobs. They shrug. But when I ask what they think of the plan for Israeli withdrawal, they grow animated. If the Israelis go, they tell me through an interpreter, they'll lose their jobs. If the plant shuts down, they'll be out of work, and if the Palestinian Authority takes it over, they'll still be out of work -- their jobs will go to workers with better connections to the PA's ruling thugs.
''If that's how you feel," I ask, ''why don't you oppose the disengagement publicly? Why don't you tell the PA that you want your Jewish neighbors to stay?"
When my question is translated, the men look at me as if I'm crazy.
''It's forbidden!" replies Randoor, the only one of the workers who would give even a first name. ''We're not allowed to say that!"
I press him: Why not? What would be so bad about saying that Jews and Arabs should be able to live together? But Randoor shakes his head and crosses his wrists, as if being handcuffed. ''They might put us in jail," he says. ''They might call us 'collaborators.' " In the jungle that is Palestinian society, being called a ''collaborator" can be a death sentence. Indeed, the PA's newly elevated security chief -- a cold-blooded killer named Rashid Abu Shabak -- is known in Gaza as the ''collaborator hunter."
Politicians and pundits are applauding Sharon's planned retreat, yet a simple lettuce-packer like Randoor seems to grasp what they cannot: The lives of Gaza's Arabs will not be improved by expelling Gaza's Jews.
Jeff Jacoby's e-mail address is jacoby@globe.com.
When those founders arrived, Jewish Gaza was all yearning and no agriculture: These settlements were mostly built on barren sand dunes where no one lived and nothing grew. Today it is a horticultural powerhouse, supplying two-thirds of the organic vegetables and cherry tomatoes Israel exports, and renowned for its bug-free lettuce and other leafy greens. Gaza's legal status may be complicated (it is technically an unallocated portion of the League of Nations' 1922 Palestine Mandate), but the moral status of this land is as clear as day: As a matter of justice and sweat equity, the Jewish homesteaders whose faith and hard work have made the sand dunes bloom surely have as much right to their homes in Gadid and Neveh Dekalim as the Arabs have to theirs in nearby Khan Yunis and Dir El Balah.
Yet in just 10 weeks, if Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's ''disengagement" program goes forward, the 8,000 Jews who live in Gaza -- men, women, and a great many children -- will be expelled. Their homes and property will be taken over by the Palestinian Authority. And the green revolution that has transformed Gaza's sandy wastes into a spectacular oasis of hothouses, nurseries, and gardens will almost certainly come to an end.
But Jews won't be the only victims of Sharon's plan.
At Tnuvot Katif, a large produce-packaging plant here, I watch for a while as about two dozen workers, most of them local Arabs, get heads of tall leaf lettuce ready for export. More than half of Tnuvot's 127 year-round employees are Arab; they in turn account for about 2 percent of the 3,500 Arabs employed by Gaza's Jewish firms.
During a break in the shift, I ask some of workers if they like their jobs. They shrug. But when I ask what they think of the plan for Israeli withdrawal, they grow animated. If the Israelis go, they tell me through an interpreter, they'll lose their jobs. If the plant shuts down, they'll be out of work, and if the Palestinian Authority takes it over, they'll still be out of work -- their jobs will go to workers with better connections to the PA's ruling thugs.
''If that's how you feel," I ask, ''why don't you oppose the disengagement publicly? Why don't you tell the PA that you want your Jewish neighbors to stay?"
When my question is translated, the men look at me as if I'm crazy.
''It's forbidden!" replies Randoor, the only one of the workers who would give even a first name. ''We're not allowed to say that!"
I press him: Why not? What would be so bad about saying that Jews and Arabs should be able to live together? But Randoor shakes his head and crosses his wrists, as if being handcuffed. ''They might put us in jail," he says. ''They might call us 'collaborators.' " In the jungle that is Palestinian society, being called a ''collaborator" can be a death sentence. Indeed, the PA's newly elevated security chief -- a cold-blooded killer named Rashid Abu Shabak -- is known in Gaza as the ''collaborator hunter."
Politicians and pundits are applauding Sharon's planned retreat, yet a simple lettuce-packer like Randoor seems to grasp what they cannot: The lives of Gaza's Arabs will not be improved by expelling Gaza's Jews.
Jeff Jacoby's e-mail address is jacoby@globe.com.
Re: RE: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but
How is it like saying that? That's not remotely like what I'm saying. Defend yourself from what? From Israel leaving Gaza? From Israeli children north of Gaza? Palestinian "freedom fighters" have been firing rockets into Israel from Gaza routinely. Routinely!!
The world has been trying to do just that. The greenhouses epitomize that effort. No one can "give" anyone a quality of life. We all create our own quality of life. Gaza is an opportunity. The Palestinians can use it to begin the process of creating their nation - or they can use it as a terrorist base camp.
Time will tell.
aeon said:
How is it like saying that? That's not remotely like what I'm saying. Defend yourself from what? From Israel leaving Gaza? From Israeli children north of Gaza? Palestinian "freedom fighters" have been firing rockets into Israel from Gaza routinely. Routinely!!
The world has been trying to do just that. The greenhouses epitomize that effort. No one can "give" anyone a quality of life. We all create our own quality of life. Gaza is an opportunity. The Palestinians can use it to begin the process of creating their nation - or they can use it as a terrorist base camp.
Time will tell.
RE: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but don
During a break in the shift, I ask some of workers if they like their jobs. They shrug. But when I ask what they think of the plan for Israeli withdrawal, they grow animated. If the Israelis go, they tell me through an interpreter, they'll lose their jobs. If the plant shuts down, they'll be out of work, and if the Palestinian Authority takes it over, they'll still be out of work -- their jobs will go to workers with better connections to the PA's ruling thugs.
''If that's how you feel," I ask, ''why don't you oppose the disengagement publicly? Why don't you tell the PA that you want your Jewish neighbors to stay?"
When my question is translated, the men look at me as if I'm crazy.
''It's forbidden!" replies Randoor, the only one of the workers who would give even a first name. ''We're not allowed to say that!"
I press him: Why not? What would be so bad about saying that Jews and Arabs should be able to live together? But Randoor shakes his head and crosses his wrists, as if being handcuffed. ''They might put us in jail," he says. ''They might call us 'collaborators.' " In the jungle that is Palestinian society, being called a ''collaborator" can be a death sentence. Indeed, the PA's newly elevated security chief -- a cold-blooded killer named Rashid Abu Shabak -- is known in Gaza as the ''collaborator hunter."
Politicians and pundits are applauding Sharon's planned retreat, yet a simple lettuce-packer like Randoor seems to grasp what they cannot: The lives of Gaza's Arabs will not be improved by expelling Gaza's Jews.
During a break in the shift, I ask some of workers if they like their jobs. They shrug. But when I ask what they think of the plan for Israeli withdrawal, they grow animated. If the Israelis go, they tell me through an interpreter, they'll lose their jobs. If the plant shuts down, they'll be out of work, and if the Palestinian Authority takes it over, they'll still be out of work -- their jobs will go to workers with better connections to the PA's ruling thugs.
''If that's how you feel," I ask, ''why don't you oppose the disengagement publicly? Why don't you tell the PA that you want your Jewish neighbors to stay?"
When my question is translated, the men look at me as if I'm crazy.
''It's forbidden!" replies Randoor, the only one of the workers who would give even a first name. ''We're not allowed to say that!"
I press him: Why not? What would be so bad about saying that Jews and Arabs should be able to live together? But Randoor shakes his head and crosses his wrists, as if being handcuffed. ''They might put us in jail," he says. ''They might call us 'collaborators.' " In the jungle that is Palestinian society, being called a ''collaborator" can be a death sentence. Indeed, the PA's newly elevated security chief -- a cold-blooded killer named Rashid Abu Shabak -- is known in Gaza as the ''collaborator hunter."
Politicians and pundits are applauding Sharon's planned retreat, yet a simple lettuce-packer like Randoor seems to grasp what they cannot: The lives of Gaza's Arabs will not be improved by expelling Gaza's Jews.
Re: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but don
earth_as_one, a few retorts to the smattering of foolary you've posted:
Wow, you really do have your head up your ass don't you? Israel doesn't want to be left in peace? You know that bigass wall they built around themselves? Yeah that's so some moron with a vest made out of semtex doesn't blow himself up in a market filled with kids. Palenstine is not facing annihilation, get over yourself buddy, they're backed by every Koran-totting Muslim in the region. Obviously not many Palestinians fought directly against Israel you fool, they don't have a standing army. How can a Country with no significant military presence launch an all out war? They had the other Countries do their dirty work, while Palestinians strapped bombs to themselves and lobbed rockets in to the West Bank. Just because they didn't strap on a uniform and fight in an infantry battalion, that doens't mean they didn't find their own way to fight, a way not recorded on paper. It's funny, you post sob stories by some Palestinian, but fail to realize that similar stories exist on the Israeli side. What about the mothers that lose their children to a suicide bomber? Or a son who loses a father to a rocket attack? The difference between Israeli's and Palestinians is that Israel doesn't sit down, and plan out how best to kill civilians in a "jihad". Yes I will admit that Israel has deported thousands of Palestinians, but have you ever stopped to consider why? Perhaps it has to do with the fact that Israeli's can't trust them? How do they know if Muhamed-bin-fatah-alalalala living down the street is really a civilian or a terrorist? They can't, so they used the shotgun approach. Get out, all of you. Frankly I support it. There are two things in this World that irk me; people on welfare who don't need to be, and terrorists that target civilians. You'll get no sympathy from me in regards to Palestine. I cannot feel empathy for a group of people that back suicide bombings and rocket attacks. I cannot support people who march through the streets shooting off AKs and dressing their kids up as suicide bombers. These people are a threat, not only to Israel, but to the stability of the World. If they abandon this extremist, jihadist, attitude, then maybe i'd feel sympathy, but now, if I see on the news that some Palestinian was shot by Israeli Defence Forces, my first thought is; what was he doing wrong?
Random acts of violence? Oh, you're talking about when an Apache Gunship launches a missile at a car full of top terrorist leaders and a few civilians catch some shrapnel? If you want to discuss random acts of violence, try looking at Hamas :roll:
I think Palestinians have finally realized that the World is slowly not caring about them anymore. We as a society can only swallow so much bullshit before we walk away. Yes Israeli's have killed people, a lot of them, but if tomorrow Palestine backed off and met Israel in the middle, the violence would stop. You may not see it, you're clearly either a Palestinan, or someone who's been spun to believe whatever you read, but the truth be told, Palestine is the root of all the problems. It isn't the Government, or the militant wings, it's the common person. The people who prop up the extreme groups. It's the same all over the Muslim world. Why is it that the Middle East is so different that the rest of the World? Why there, do people tot weapons and walk down the street shooting in to the air? Why do they embody this mentality of jihads and infadels? Religious zeal. If Palestine were any other religion than Islamic, this problem wouldn't exist.
Um, yeah, look what they're surrounded by; Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine, Iran, Iraq. Those nations have massive militaties (granted poorly trained and equipped). If I were running Israel, you'd bet that i'd make defence a top priority too.
Every thing is a point of view. Just because Akmed-bop-dee-blah wasn't the one holding the AK, that doesn't mean that him being right next to the gunmen didn't associate him. You have to realize that these people are the ones that get together in a group and throw stones at a tank. Not the brighest people on earth, these are also the same that mix civilians in with militants. So Israeli soldiers are often faced with the choice of:
A. Fire on the gunman and risk hitting 153 civilians shielding him.
B. Let the gunman plink away at me and my patrol
A good soldier would choose A. Often in the Middle East, the "civilian" deaths you speak of are due to:
A. Stupidity
B. Half truths
If some fool wants to stand around and watch an IDF patrol engaging in a fire fight, and he catches some lead, that's his own fault. Thinning out the herd. Often over there, someone that is armed will go down, and a complete stranger will take his weapon. So when the investigation rolls around, they find a corpse with no weapon. On a side note however, in Iraq, the U.S. has started checking corpses for gunshot residue. A high number of unarmed dead show they'd fired a weapon in the last 2-4 hours, even though no weapon is visible.
What is this shithead doing?
earth_as_one, a few retorts to the smattering of foolary you've posted:
Wow, you really do have your head up your ass don't you? Israel doesn't want to be left in peace? You know that bigass wall they built around themselves? Yeah that's so some moron with a vest made out of semtex doesn't blow himself up in a market filled with kids. Palenstine is not facing annihilation, get over yourself buddy, they're backed by every Koran-totting Muslim in the region. Obviously not many Palestinians fought directly against Israel you fool, they don't have a standing army. How can a Country with no significant military presence launch an all out war? They had the other Countries do their dirty work, while Palestinians strapped bombs to themselves and lobbed rockets in to the West Bank. Just because they didn't strap on a uniform and fight in an infantry battalion, that doens't mean they didn't find their own way to fight, a way not recorded on paper. It's funny, you post sob stories by some Palestinian, but fail to realize that similar stories exist on the Israeli side. What about the mothers that lose their children to a suicide bomber? Or a son who loses a father to a rocket attack? The difference between Israeli's and Palestinians is that Israel doesn't sit down, and plan out how best to kill civilians in a "jihad". Yes I will admit that Israel has deported thousands of Palestinians, but have you ever stopped to consider why? Perhaps it has to do with the fact that Israeli's can't trust them? How do they know if Muhamed-bin-fatah-alalalala living down the street is really a civilian or a terrorist? They can't, so they used the shotgun approach. Get out, all of you. Frankly I support it. There are two things in this World that irk me; people on welfare who don't need to be, and terrorists that target civilians. You'll get no sympathy from me in regards to Palestine. I cannot feel empathy for a group of people that back suicide bombings and rocket attacks. I cannot support people who march through the streets shooting off AKs and dressing their kids up as suicide bombers. These people are a threat, not only to Israel, but to the stability of the World. If they abandon this extremist, jihadist, attitude, then maybe i'd feel sympathy, but now, if I see on the news that some Palestinian was shot by Israeli Defence Forces, my first thought is; what was he doing wrong?
Random acts of violence? Oh, you're talking about when an Apache Gunship launches a missile at a car full of top terrorist leaders and a few civilians catch some shrapnel? If you want to discuss random acts of violence, try looking at Hamas :roll:
I think Palestinians have finally realized that the World is slowly not caring about them anymore. We as a society can only swallow so much bullshit before we walk away. Yes Israeli's have killed people, a lot of them, but if tomorrow Palestine backed off and met Israel in the middle, the violence would stop. You may not see it, you're clearly either a Palestinan, or someone who's been spun to believe whatever you read, but the truth be told, Palestine is the root of all the problems. It isn't the Government, or the militant wings, it's the common person. The people who prop up the extreme groups. It's the same all over the Muslim world. Why is it that the Middle East is so different that the rest of the World? Why there, do people tot weapons and walk down the street shooting in to the air? Why do they embody this mentality of jihads and infadels? Religious zeal. If Palestine were any other religion than Islamic, this problem wouldn't exist.
Um, yeah, look what they're surrounded by; Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine, Iran, Iraq. Those nations have massive militaties (granted poorly trained and equipped). If I were running Israel, you'd bet that i'd make defence a top priority too.
Every thing is a point of view. Just because Akmed-bop-dee-blah wasn't the one holding the AK, that doesn't mean that him being right next to the gunmen didn't associate him. You have to realize that these people are the ones that get together in a group and throw stones at a tank. Not the brighest people on earth, these are also the same that mix civilians in with militants. So Israeli soldiers are often faced with the choice of:
A. Fire on the gunman and risk hitting 153 civilians shielding him.
B. Let the gunman plink away at me and my patrol
A good soldier would choose A. Often in the Middle East, the "civilian" deaths you speak of are due to:
A. Stupidity
B. Half truths
If some fool wants to stand around and watch an IDF patrol engaging in a fire fight, and he catches some lead, that's his own fault. Thinning out the herd. Often over there, someone that is armed will go down, and a complete stranger will take his weapon. So when the investigation rolls around, they find a corpse with no weapon. On a side note however, in Iraq, the U.S. has started checking corpses for gunshot residue. A high number of unarmed dead show they'd fired a weapon in the last 2-4 hours, even though no weapon is visible.
What is this shithead doing?
Re: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but don
So what are they suppose to do, be one of the only people in the world to suffer under military occupation.
I don't think so.
So what are they suppose to do, be one of the only people in the world to suffer under military occupation.
I don't think so.
RE: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but don
Perhaps we should urge the two states to engage in more meaningful discussions on the topic; we could invite delegates to Ottawa for a Canadian-facilitated Conference of Change, whereby we would assist the two states in finding some more meaningful form of co-existence; we could introduce delegates to Canadian friendships between friendships involving both Jewish and Muslim men and women, and show them that a friendly atmosphere can, and should, exist between the two, to both of their amelioration.
Perhaps we should urge the two states to engage in more meaningful discussions on the topic; we could invite delegates to Ottawa for a Canadian-facilitated Conference of Change, whereby we would assist the two states in finding some more meaningful form of co-existence; we could introduce delegates to Canadian friendships between friendships involving both Jewish and Muslim men and women, and show them that a friendly atmosphere can, and should, exist between the two, to both of their amelioration.
Re: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but don
Great idea FiveParadox, maybe you should write a letter to your MP suggesting such a course of action, everyone else seems to have failed, why not let Canada give it a shot? Sounds good to me.
Great idea FiveParadox, maybe you should write a letter to your MP suggesting such a course of action, everyone else seems to have failed, why not let Canada give it a shot? Sounds good to me.
Re: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but don
Master Yoda, you are misinformed.
That wall you refer to is yet another illegal Israeli land grab in violation of international law. Its purpose is to separate Palestinians from their land, its resources and each other. If it's purpose was for keeping Israeli's safe, then why is 90% of it built on the Palestinian side of the armistice line? But I have an open mind. Do you have another plausible explanation for its circuituous route?
In effect the wall has turned what little remains of Palestine into walled in ghettos and concentration camps.
It is difficult to convey the scale and effect of Israel’s abuses of Palestinian lives through statistics alone. But these are horrifying enough: since 2000, nearly 4,000 Palestinians killed, and 30,000 injured; 400 were assas-sinated; and 25,000 homes were demolished. In addition, hundreds of acres of farmland were destroyed. No state on earth, except Israel, could get away with these atrocities, now routinely justified as “defence” against Palestinian “ terrorism”.
If you want to know why children throw rocks at tanks, I suggest you click on the above links and see what Palestinian children have seen.
Fermi Paradox, I support your suggestion. I think Canada is an a model of peaceful co-existance between races and religions. We're not perfect, but compared to the rest of the world, I doubt another country can claim to be as tolerant as Canada. The United States is far too involved with Israeli to be a legitimate peace broker.
Master Yoda, you are misinformed.
That wall you refer to is yet another illegal Israeli land grab in violation of international law. Its purpose is to separate Palestinians from their land, its resources and each other. If it's purpose was for keeping Israeli's safe, then why is 90% of it built on the Palestinian side of the armistice line? But I have an open mind. Do you have another plausible explanation for its circuituous route?
In effect the wall has turned what little remains of Palestine into walled in ghettos and concentration camps.
It is difficult to convey the scale and effect of Israel’s abuses of Palestinian lives through statistics alone. But these are horrifying enough: since 2000, nearly 4,000 Palestinians killed, and 30,000 injured; 400 were assas-sinated; and 25,000 homes were demolished. In addition, hundreds of acres of farmland were destroyed. No state on earth, except Israel, could get away with these atrocities, now routinely justified as “defence” against Palestinian “ terrorism”.
If you want to know why children throw rocks at tanks, I suggest you click on the above links and see what Palestinian children have seen.
Fermi Paradox, I support your suggestion. I think Canada is an a model of peaceful co-existance between races and religions. We're not perfect, but compared to the rest of the world, I doubt another country can claim to be as tolerant as Canada. The United States is far too involved with Israeli to be a legitimate peace broker.