Re: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but don
Read every last one and I think it is good.
Read every last one and I think it is good.
Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but don't
- Thread starter earth_as_one
- Start date
RE: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but don
Aeon there is no doubt The Wall is "unacceptable"
but it was the only thing short of Israel disappearing
that would have stopped the suicide bombers, and since
it has virtually stopped the suicide bombings it has
also stopped the retaliations for those suicide bombings.
So in this case the rash of violence has slowed
considerably.
You want The Wall down and see a rise in suicide
bombings and retaliations ?
Nothing else has worked, short of Israel disappearing.
And that's simply not going to happen.
And since that is not going to happen, let's turn our
heads towards other options.
In addition if you check out the demographics of
the median and average age of the Palestinians, you
would notice a very very very young population.
Ever wonder why you don't see a lot 40+ year old
suicide bombers ?
For Jordan not to have given them sovereignty
between the years of 1948 and 1967 is quite interesting.
And for all that RICH ARAB OIL MONEY that did little to
build up the palestinian lands is also quite interesting.
Like I said, we got some progress but we're all trained
not to notice it because we still got problems.
I saw Hamas reach out to the Fatah the other day.
Also quite interesting.
In a good way perhaps.
Aeon there is no doubt The Wall is "unacceptable"
but it was the only thing short of Israel disappearing
that would have stopped the suicide bombers, and since
it has virtually stopped the suicide bombings it has
also stopped the retaliations for those suicide bombings.
So in this case the rash of violence has slowed
considerably.
You want The Wall down and see a rise in suicide
bombings and retaliations ?
Nothing else has worked, short of Israel disappearing.
And that's simply not going to happen.
And since that is not going to happen, let's turn our
heads towards other options.
In addition if you check out the demographics of
the median and average age of the Palestinians, you
would notice a very very very young population.
Ever wonder why you don't see a lot 40+ year old
suicide bombers ?
For Jordan not to have given them sovereignty
between the years of 1948 and 1967 is quite interesting.
And for all that RICH ARAB OIL MONEY that did little to
build up the palestinian lands is also quite interesting.
Like I said, we got some progress but we're all trained
not to notice it because we still got problems.
I saw Hamas reach out to the Fatah the other day.
Also quite interesting.
In a good way perhaps.
Re: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but don
I believe that the election of Hamas may actually be good sign. For me at least.
I believe that the election of Hamas may actually be good sign. For me at least.
RE: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but don
Time will tell if you are right Jersay.
In order for that society to build itself, it's got to
stop the violence even if it feels it has every right
to continue the violence.
Time will tell if you are right Jersay.
In order for that society to build itself, it's got to
stop the violence even if it feels it has every right
to continue the violence.
Re: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but don
Hopefully, peace can come to the middle-east with either a moderate Hamas at the helm or a rejuvenated Fatah, and a good partner for peace in Israel.
Hopefully, peace can come to the middle-east with either a moderate Hamas at the helm or a rejuvenated Fatah, and a good partner for peace in Israel.
RE: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but don
Colpy - How would you solve the problem of five million Palestinian refugees?
Thank you Wednesday Child
I know there is a lot of material there. For those of you who like to cut to the chase, this map tells the story:
Map showing the massive destruction of Palestinian towns after al-Nakba in 1948
The Absentees’ Property Law was state sanctioned theft. What happened here was a crime against humanity.
But no one talks about these dirty little secrets.
Aon, - Here's what happens to moderate Palestinian leaders:
Abu Shanab
Juan - Canada supported the creation of Israel too. Does that mean we are obligated to carry our fair share of the resulting burden?
Mogz - Read my post. I believe in a two state solution to this conflict. Israel isn't facing annihilation. Palestine is. I don't know where you got the idea Israel wants to be left in peace. Its through war that Israel justifies seizing land. Few Palestinians were involved in the wars against Israel. I posted a link which shows out of a million Palestinians, only a few fought against Israel in 1948. You can find stats on the number of combatants in this war here. Few were Palestinian. Yet these people paid the greatest price. Read these three stories:
Benny Morris
Father Rantisi
Professor Fouad Moughrabi
Hundreds of thousands of people suffered similar atrocities as described above. Do you believe that all these people deserved to be ethnically cleansed off their land? Tell me how that is justified.
Colin can you provide a link to your assertion that Palestinians refused to be recognized as a country. As far as I know, this is something which has been denied them. You might be confusing their unhappiness with having their land taken from them by force.
Jimmoyer - lets not forget the effectness of Israel assassinating anyone who has the ability to unite Palestinians. Too bad its resulting in the deaths of hundreds of people each year, most of them unlucky people caught in the cross fire including 150 children in 2004.
Amnesty International 2005 Report
that's an average of about one child killed every two days.
Colpy - How would you solve the problem of five million Palestinian refugees?
Thank you Wednesday Child
I know there is a lot of material there. For those of you who like to cut to the chase, this map tells the story:
Map showing the massive destruction of Palestinian towns after al-Nakba in 1948
The Absentees’ Property Law was state sanctioned theft. What happened here was a crime against humanity.
But no one talks about these dirty little secrets.
Aon, - Here's what happens to moderate Palestinian leaders:
Abu Shanab
Juan - Canada supported the creation of Israel too. Does that mean we are obligated to carry our fair share of the resulting burden?
Mogz - Read my post. I believe in a two state solution to this conflict. Israel isn't facing annihilation. Palestine is. I don't know where you got the idea Israel wants to be left in peace. Its through war that Israel justifies seizing land. Few Palestinians were involved in the wars against Israel. I posted a link which shows out of a million Palestinians, only a few fought against Israel in 1948. You can find stats on the number of combatants in this war here. Few were Palestinian. Yet these people paid the greatest price. Read these three stories:
Benny Morris
Father Rantisi
Professor Fouad Moughrabi
Hundreds of thousands of people suffered similar atrocities as described above. Do you believe that all these people deserved to be ethnically cleansed off their land? Tell me how that is justified.
Colin can you provide a link to your assertion that Palestinians refused to be recognized as a country. As far as I know, this is something which has been denied them. You might be confusing their unhappiness with having their land taken from them by force.
Jimmoyer - lets not forget the effectness of Israel assassinating anyone who has the ability to unite Palestinians. Too bad its resulting in the deaths of hundreds of people each year, most of them unlucky people caught in the cross fire including 150 children in 2004.
Amnesty International 2005 Report
that's an average of about one child killed every two days.
RE: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but don
The Palestinians will continue to shoot themselves
in the foot, until they renounce the violence despite
their right to retaliate.
At some point this metaphorical temper tantrum
righteous in all its aspects must let it go, and turn
to rebuilding itself.
Why Jordan didn't give sovereignty to the Palestinians
between 1948 and 1967 is a question always avoided.
Why Arab Oil Money didn't help Palestine build in
a positive way is another question always avoided.
Earth_as_one, you have all the reasons of a drumbeat
for more war.
The Palestinians will continue to shoot themselves
in the foot, until they renounce the violence despite
their right to retaliate.
At some point this metaphorical temper tantrum
righteous in all its aspects must let it go, and turn
to rebuilding itself.
Why Jordan didn't give sovereignty to the Palestinians
between 1948 and 1967 is a question always avoided.
Why Arab Oil Money didn't help Palestine build in
a positive way is another question always avoided.
Earth_as_one, you have all the reasons of a drumbeat
for more war.
RE: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but don
What kind of a truce requires one side to renounce violence while the other side isn't? Would you agree to that kind of a truce?
The 2003 Hudna, by Palestinians was just that kind of a truce. But it didn't get them anywhere. It wasn't covered by the internatinal press and Israel din't stop its violence and settlement building. So its been tried. It didn't work.
The only way a truce can work is if both side agree to end the violence.
Do you think Israel should also renounce deliberate and random acts of violence directed at innocent civilians?
Not guilty. The Israeli captain who put 17 bullets into a Palestinian schoolgirl
and
Palestinian children have been killed and injured by the Israeli army, as a result of deliberate as well as reckless shooting by soldiers
What kind of a truce requires one side to renounce violence while the other side isn't? Would you agree to that kind of a truce?
The 2003 Hudna, by Palestinians was just that kind of a truce. But it didn't get them anywhere. It wasn't covered by the internatinal press and Israel din't stop its violence and settlement building. So its been tried. It didn't work.
The only way a truce can work is if both side agree to end the violence.
Do you think Israel should also renounce deliberate and random acts of violence directed at innocent civilians?
Not guilty. The Israeli captain who put 17 bullets into a Palestinian schoolgirl
and
Palestinian children have been killed and injured by the Israeli army, as a result of deliberate as well as reckless shooting by soldiers
Re: RE: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but
True enough, but let's not voluntarily make the probl;em worse
darkbeaver said:
True enough, but let's not voluntarily make the probl;em worse
RE: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but don
17 bullets in a school girl is a terrible tragedy. Bu so is a Palestinian blowing up a bus/car/market/crosswalk and killing a dozens of people on a regular basis.
17 bullets in a school girl is a terrible tragedy. Bu so is a Palestinian blowing up a bus/car/market/crosswalk and killing a dozens of people on a regular basis.
Re: RE: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but
That doesnt matter, suicide bombing stopped, but violating human rights hasnt stop, the palestinians miserable life hasnt stopped, so it is unnaceptable, we cant have peace and security just for one side, it has to be for both side.
jimmoyer said:
That doesnt matter, suicide bombing stopped, but violating human rights hasnt stop, the palestinians miserable life hasnt stopped, so it is unnaceptable, we cant have peace and security just for one side, it has to be for both side.
Re: RE: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but
Obviously your point is true.
But my point is that in order to understand this conflict you need to be aware of both sides to the story. Our news should objectively inform us but it doesn't. When our news only reports one side and not the other, that is a form of manipulation. Its purpose is to generate support for one side of the conflict, and eliminate sympathy for the other.
Hearing about suicide bomber violence without context creates a false perception of random and inexplicable violence. We should know that according to the Israeli courts, it isn't a crime when IDF soldiers murder Palestinian schoolchildren.
Injustices like these fuel suicide bombings.
That's not a statement in support of violence. Thats a statement of support for being objectively informed about this conflict rather than allowing ourselves to be manipulated by propaganda.
The first post in this string provides the missing context in this conflict. Anyone who only knows what our news tells us, will see this conflict in a completely new light this conflict after reading it.
The Gunslinger said:
Obviously your point is true.
But my point is that in order to understand this conflict you need to be aware of both sides to the story. Our news should objectively inform us but it doesn't. When our news only reports one side and not the other, that is a form of manipulation. Its purpose is to generate support for one side of the conflict, and eliminate sympathy for the other.
Hearing about suicide bomber violence without context creates a false perception of random and inexplicable violence. We should know that according to the Israeli courts, it isn't a crime when IDF soldiers murder Palestinian schoolchildren.
Injustices like these fuel suicide bombings.
That's not a statement in support of violence. Thats a statement of support for being objectively informed about this conflict rather than allowing ourselves to be manipulated by propaganda.
The first post in this string provides the missing context in this conflict. Anyone who only knows what our news tells us, will see this conflict in a completely new light this conflict after reading it.
RE: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but don
It's a vicious cycle. I would argue that the suicide bombings fuel injustices against the Palestinians. No one is innocent over there, they've all got blood on their hands.
It's a vicious cycle. I would argue that the suicide bombings fuel injustices against the Palestinians. No one is innocent over there, they've all got blood on their hands.
Re: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but don
No doubt its a vicious cycle. But with each cycle, Israel gets a little bigger and Palestine gets a little smaller.
The cycle began when hundreds of thousands of Jewish immigrants fled to this area as a result of the European holocaust and aftermath. The Palestinians didn't take part in those events, but they've suffered the consequences.
Another cycle was the UN creation of Israel. It gave a minority of people most of whom were recent immigrants a majority of the land known as Palestine without consulting the neighboring countries or the land's inhabitants. The brutal ethnic cleansing that followed and the confiscation of their property were also cycles.
Today,ethnic cleansing in Palestine is called settlement building. Israel has never stopped settlement building regardless of whether there was a peace agreement or war, or whether they signed agreements to end the settlement building. No matter what Israel said or signed, they have continued confiscating Palestinian property in order to build Jewish homes. Its going on right now.
link
What a slap in the face that must be for Palestinians.
I wonder how many of us would react any differently if we were treated the same ways as the Palestinians?
So today, Palestinians are being told to renounce violence and recognize Israel. Yet no one is asking Israel to renounce violence, end its settlement building or pay compensation for all it has taken from Palestinians over the years.
I think Palestinians have finally realized that no peaceful way exists to stop the rolling annexation of their land and the daily acts of violence Israel comits against them. They have finally figured out that few people know or care about their suffering. Their must know their final annihilation as a people is very near. Eventually we will have forgotten they ever existed.
No doubt its a vicious cycle. But with each cycle, Israel gets a little bigger and Palestine gets a little smaller.
The cycle began when hundreds of thousands of Jewish immigrants fled to this area as a result of the European holocaust and aftermath. The Palestinians didn't take part in those events, but they've suffered the consequences.
Another cycle was the UN creation of Israel. It gave a minority of people most of whom were recent immigrants a majority of the land known as Palestine without consulting the neighboring countries or the land's inhabitants. The brutal ethnic cleansing that followed and the confiscation of their property were also cycles.
Today,ethnic cleansing in Palestine is called settlement building. Israel has never stopped settlement building regardless of whether there was a peace agreement or war, or whether they signed agreements to end the settlement building. No matter what Israel said or signed, they have continued confiscating Palestinian property in order to build Jewish homes. Its going on right now.
link
What a slap in the face that must be for Palestinians.
I wonder how many of us would react any differently if we were treated the same ways as the Palestinians?
So today, Palestinians are being told to renounce violence and recognize Israel. Yet no one is asking Israel to renounce violence, end its settlement building or pay compensation for all it has taken from Palestinians over the years.
I think Palestinians have finally realized that no peaceful way exists to stop the rolling annexation of their land and the daily acts of violence Israel comits against them. They have finally figured out that few people know or care about their suffering. Their must know their final annihilation as a people is very near. Eventually we will have forgotten they ever existed.
RE: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but don
Aeon, Palestine needs to stop and you will see Israel
stop. It's always been that simple.
And Palestinians look to Israel for jobs ?
Why don't the Oil Rich Arabs create jobs for them ?
All those checkpoints?
Most of those were about going to Israel on work visas.
By the way, there's one group laughing at all the
whining of the Palestinians.
The Kurds.
They got a far longer history of abuse, and have
a much more legitimate and longer claim to a nation
of their own.
And what of no outcry for the Chechnyans ?
Their bitter history with the Russians goes back to
the last period of the Mongol empire.
What glass houses we all live in !!!
Aeon, Palestine needs to stop and you will see Israel
stop. It's always been that simple.
And Palestinians look to Israel for jobs ?
Why don't the Oil Rich Arabs create jobs for them ?
All those checkpoints?
Most of those were about going to Israel on work visas.
By the way, there's one group laughing at all the
whining of the Palestinians.
The Kurds.
They got a far longer history of abuse, and have
a much more legitimate and longer claim to a nation
of their own.
And what of no outcry for the Chechnyans ?
Their bitter history with the Russians goes back to
the last period of the Mongol empire.
What glass houses we all live in !!!
RE: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but don
What you suggest J, has been tried.
Palestinians declared a unilateral ceasefire called a hudna late June 2003. It lasted through 45 days of demolition of Palestinian homes, settlement building, wreckless IDF violence and assassinations. But when Israel assassinated the Palestinian who negotiated the ceasefire/hudna, it fell apart.
Hamas Abandons Cease-fire after Israeli Strike
The nail in the wood: an interview with Ismail Abu Shanab
What you suggest J, has been tried.
Palestinians declared a unilateral ceasefire called a hudna late June 2003. It lasted through 45 days of demolition of Palestinian homes, settlement building, wreckless IDF violence and assassinations. But when Israel assassinated the Palestinian who negotiated the ceasefire/hudna, it fell apart.
Hamas Abandons Cease-fire after Israeli Strike
The nail in the wood: an interview with Ismail Abu Shanab
RE: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but don
You guys have got to keep your posts shorter and to the point. In particular we should all agree on something: with Hamas's lanslide victory we can all agree on one thing. At least now we know that palestine is a society that favours terrorism and the liquidation of the Israeli society. Prior to the election we were spoonfed crap about a "two nation solution" which siphoned millions of dollars from the sympathetic wester european governments. Now, at leats we know for a fact we are dealing with terrorist criminals.
You guys have got to keep your posts shorter and to the point. In particular we should all agree on something: with Hamas's lanslide victory we can all agree on one thing. At least now we know that palestine is a society that favours terrorism and the liquidation of the Israeli society. Prior to the election we were spoonfed crap about a "two nation solution" which siphoned millions of dollars from the sympathetic wester european governments. Now, at leats we know for a fact we are dealing with terrorist criminals.
RE: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but don
I'll try to keep it short:
US aid to Israel is several billion a year, even though it is ranked 44 out of 232 in per capita GDP.
Economist tallies swelling cost of Israel to US
Most US aid is used to buy arms.
US Aid to Israel
Israel continues to ethnically cleanse Palestine by military force mostly paid for by American tax dollars. Our news on this conflict is pro-Israeli crimes against humanity propaganda.
M, how would you define this:
...Between September 29, 2000, and November 30, 2004, more than 1600 Palestinian civilians not involved in hostilities, including at least 500 children, were killed by Israeli security forces, and thousands more were seriously injured...link
Is this a form of terrorism?
I'll try to keep it short:
US aid to Israel is several billion a year, even though it is ranked 44 out of 232 in per capita GDP.
Economist tallies swelling cost of Israel to US
Most US aid is used to buy arms.
US Aid to Israel
Israel continues to ethnically cleanse Palestine by military force mostly paid for by American tax dollars. Our news on this conflict is pro-Israeli crimes against humanity propaganda.
M, how would you define this:
...Between September 29, 2000, and November 30, 2004, more than 1600 Palestinian civilians not involved in hostilities, including at least 500 children, were killed by Israeli security forces, and thousands more were seriously injured...link
Is this a form of terrorism?
Re: RE: Palestine/Israeli conflict - what we should know but
It is not that simple mr watson, palestinians are constantly being agressed on every day basis, why cant you see that fact??You can t ask those peoples to stop, when the israelis governement doesnt stop
Why arabs would create jobs??, israelis governement will destroyed it, simple facts, go in palestine , talk to the people and come back to talk .
Sorry but that comparison is ridicoulus, what about Some jews from the holocaost who are still alive have said, the palestinians occupied territory looked like concentration camp,during ww2?? why are the role are just reversed??
kurds has more legitimate and longer claim to a nation than isreali, that is a fact, i totally agree with you.
That is completly another story.
jimmoyer said:
It is not that simple mr watson, palestinians are constantly being agressed on every day basis, why cant you see that fact??You can t ask those peoples to stop, when the israelis governement doesnt stop
jimmoyer said:
Why arabs would create jobs??, israelis governement will destroyed it, simple facts, go in palestine , talk to the people and come back to talk .
jimmoyer said:
Sorry but that comparison is ridicoulus, what about Some jews from the holocaost who are still alive have said, the palestinians occupied territory looked like concentration camp,during ww2?? why are the role are just reversed??
kurds has more legitimate and longer claim to a nation than isreali, that is a fact, i totally agree with you.
jimmoyer said:
That is completly another story.