Pakistan orders troops to open fire if U.S. raids

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
10,677
161
63
Halifax, NS & Melbourne, VIC
When an army is afraid to enter the tribal regions or anywhere in their own country... they are not afraid of being yelled at...they're afraid of getting killed. I would say they were loathed.

Their Military is for the people, not the government..... last I checked anyways. I'm sure they have hessitations of shooting at their own citizens and risking many innocents whom they're supposed to protect.

Not to mention, you're going by old methods by Mush. I am sure I will re-assess the situation once I see what the new government has planned. At present, their biggest concern is the US crossing into their borders..... nice way to slow them down in dealing with the real issues.
 

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
3,500
48
48
California
Can you really say you're defending your country's sovereignty in an area your government doesn't really control (and hasn't for years and years and years)? If New York state was home to a militia that was attacking Ontario, and the US government couldn't or wouldn't stop them would it be unreasonable for Canada to launch a few attacks against them even though they were in US territory?
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
32,493
212
63
In the bush near Sudbury
Yawn. How many times do we have to go over this? Canadians were not fully engaged until 1943. They listed their first infantryman killed in 1942...after Pearl Harbor. Sure there was a pilot here and there flying in British Squadrons but there were Americans there as well.

I would LOOOOOOOOOOOOVE for you to come down here!

We'll probably keep going over it until you realize the United States of America isn't the centre of the universe and Yanks stop rewriting history to match Hollywood.

Canadians were in Borneo and fighting their way east from India in very late 1941. Canadians were over-run in Hong Kong and Singapere the same time as Pearl Harbour and the Philippines so don't ever get the idea one couldn't be fully committed when fighting against the Japanese. In Europe, Canadians were listed as on strength for Britain ... as were ALL British Empire troops. Canadians left Dunkirk the same time as BEF - or you wouldn't have gained the benefit of combat-experienced Canadians in 1st SSF (Devils Brigade)

Sure there was a pilot here and there flying in British Squadrons

For every ONE listed as killed ... obviously there were very many more serving. Even the very stupid can see that.

That Brit listing accounts for why you won't find pre-1942 Canadian actions carried separately. This comes from Royal Canadian Legion sources. Another reason it isn't accurate is Google is an American search engine. Americans are like Brits. Both hate sharing the spotlight.
 
Last edited:

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
96
48
USA
We'll probably keep going over it until you realize the United States of America isn't the centre of the universe and Yanks stop rewriting history to match Hollywood.

You see... I do not think we are the center of the universe. You Canadians are making the claim that we Americans think that and here that I think that but I am telling you right now I do not think we are the center of the universe.

Canadians were in Borneo and fighting their way east from India in very late 1941. Canadians were over-run in Hong Kong and Singapere the same time as Pearl Harbour and the Philippines so don't ever get the idea one couldn't be fully committed when fighting against the Japanese.

I am sorry but I just can't find anywhere that says they were engaged in these places. Not even on Canadian WWII sites.

In Europe, Canadians were listed as on strength for Britain ... as were ALL British Empire troops.

"On strength"... key word

Canadians left Dunkirk the same time as BEF -

Can you name the Canadian units that were in the BEF that evacuated Dunkirk?

Pulled from a Canadian webpage

"The army expanded until by late 1942 there were 5 divisions overseas, 2 of them armoured. In April of that year the FIRST CANADIAN ARMY was formed in England under Lieutenant-General A.G.L. MCNAUGHTON. In contrast with WWI, it was a long time before the army saw large-scale action. Until summer 1943 the force in England was engaged only in the unsuccessful DIEPPE RAID (19 August 1942), whereas 2 battalions sent from Canada had taken part in the hopeless defence of HONG KONG against the Japanese in December 1941. Public opinion in Canada became disturbed by the inaction, and disagreement developed between the government and McNaughton, who wished to reserve the army for a final, decisive campaign."

or you wouldn't have gained the benefit of combat-experienced Canadians in 1st SSF (Devils Brigade)

Once again myth clashes with facts. The 1st SFF was formed in 1942 and trained in Montana and Vermont and they trained together and under the command of an American. We had this discussion before and of all the links that I read about the brigade nowhere did it say that the Canadians trained the Americans because of their "experience". Why can't you be happy and be proud of Canadians being part of such a storied unit instead of stating that it was Canadian experience that made it the way it was.

The universe doesn't revolve around Canada either.


For every ONE listed as killed ... obviously there were very many more serving. Even the very stupid can see that.

Well no kidding. But in combat some do get killed and wounded...that is unless they are not fighting.

That Brit listing accounts for why you won't find pre-1942 Canadian actions carried separately. This comes from Royal Canadian Legion sources. Another reason it isn't accurate is Google is an American search engine. Americans are like Brits. Both hate sharing the spotlight.

All and I mean ALL the websites I went to were Canadian.

And perhaps you should check into the Flying Tigers...an American squadron flying against the Japanese before WWII.
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
32,493
212
63
In the bush near Sudbury
You see... I do not think we are the center of the universe. You Canadians are making the claim that we Americans think that and here that I think that but I am telling you right now I do not think we are the center of the universe.

Americans can't see anything beyond American boundaries. That's the arrogance that earns you so much contempt from "your enemies"

I am sorry but I just can't find anywhere that says they were engaged in these places. Not even on Canadian WWII sites.

Eag ... there is no point in trying to explain anything to you. I have told many many times that British Empire forces (Canadians, Australians, New Zelanders etc) were carried on strength at British forces. Do you know how hard it is to get information from a Brit?

"On strength"... key word

Can you name the Canadian units that were in the BEF that evacuated Dunkirk?

Can you not get it through your skull that Canadian troops were assigned to British units? They all would be elements of the Canadian 1st Div.

Can you name me the mass of components in an atomic bomb?

Pulled from a Canadian webpage

"The army expanded until by late 1942 there were 5 divisions overseas, 2 of them armoured. In April of that year the FIRST CANADIAN ARMY was formed in England under Lieutenant-General A.G.L. MCNAUGHTON. In contrast with WWI, it was a long time before the army saw large-scale action. Until summer 1943 the force in England was engaged only in the unsuccessful DIEPPE RAID (19 August 1942), whereas 2 battalions sent from Canada had taken part in the hopeless defence of HONG KONG against the Japanese in December 1941. Public opinion in Canada became disturbed by the inaction, and disagreement developed between the government and McNaughton, who wished to reserve the army for a final, decisive campaign."

Fact: My Grandfather signed on with 48th Highlanders of Canada Sepember 11 1939.
Fact: My Grandfather was transferred to a convalescent hospital in the north of England in October 1940 to recover from a wound inflicted in France.
It seems likely my grandfather was a real person, a Canadian, and in action before you say he was - in the Canadian 1st Div

Once again myth clashes with facts. The 1st SFF was formed in 1942 and trained in Montana and Vermont and they trained together and under the command of an American. We had this discussion before and of all the links that I read about the brigade nowhere did it say that the Canadians trained the Americans because of their "experience". Why can't you be happy and be proud of Canadians being part of such a storied unit instead of stating that it was Canadian experience that made it the way it was.

Read it again... Did I say Canadians trained them? I said the Canadians were combat experienced. You're the one interpreting and reading your own thoughts into the fib you create. Are you a lawyer?

The universe doesn't revolve around Canada either.

That's your defence? Did anyone say it was?

Well no kidding. But in combat some do get killed and wounded...that is unless they are not fighting.

All and I mean ALL the websites I went to were Canadian.

And perhaps you should check into the Flying Tigers...an American squadron flying against the Japanese before WWII.

There you go again.... Hero worship to eclipse the facts. Did anyone say there weren't Americans in action before Pearl Harbour?
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
4,600
100
63
History note:

If you can't find evidence of the Canadians on Hong Kong you aren't trying.
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
96
48
USA
There you go again.... Hero worship to eclipse the facts. Did anyone say there weren't Americans in action before Pearl Harbour?

Well I think we look beyond our boundaries too much don't you?

The Anzacs were listed as fighting in N. Africa. Therein lies where you come up short.

Information from a Brit? Are you trying to tell me Canadians had no idea where there boys were?

Canadian 48th Highlanders. It sounds like a pretty good unit and from their battle records it appears that they behaved well in combat. However being part of the BEF is just not listed in their Battle Honors (or honours). It does list their first actions as being in Sicily in 1943 which is a fact that was never in dispute. So I can just assume that your Grandfather was taken from the 48th and plugged into a British unit because the 48th was not there.

No I cannot say what is in the atom bomb...but I can tell you which units were in which battle.

I think you would be hard pressed to find that many (if any) 1st SFF members had any combat experience. So we can at least say experience was even.

It wasn't hero worship as I do not worship them. It just flies in the face when you say that Americans weren't involved in WWII prior to Pearl Harbor.
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
10,677
161
63
Halifax, NS & Melbourne, VIC
Can you really say you're defending your country's sovereignty in an area your government doesn't really control (and hasn't for years and years and years)? If New York state was home to a militia that was attacking Ontario, and the US government couldn't or wouldn't stop them would it be unreasonable for Canada to launch a few attacks against them even though they were in US territory?

Just shoot anybody who crosses the border with a New York accent :p
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
96
48
USA
History note:

If you can't find evidence of the Canadians on Hong Kong you aren't trying.

No they absolutely were. If you read my post you will see that Canada listed their first infantryman killed in Hong Kong in 1942. After Pearl Harbor.
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
96
48
USA
HAHA totally content to bully and tell other SOVEREIGN NATIONS how they should behave within their own borders. So you're admitting that the US is an a$$hole on a grand scale??

Ummm... no.

You must excuse the rest of the globe for being happy to close the book on the failed experiment called the USA, maybe as a loose collection of city states the global menace aspect can be toned down and the GOOD people of the territory can live out their lives in peace, free from terror brought by the ridiculous policies of the WORST system of government on earth as far as long-term survival of our species goes

Close the book? Hardly...there is so much more to do!

I hope you know, ES, that most of the USonians I know are ashamed of people like you and attitudes such as those you put forward

Well I hope you know that those Americans are in the minority and we are pretty ashamed of them. Actually they are pretty irrelevant.
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
96
48
USA
Can you really say you're defending your country's sovereignty in an area your government doesn't really control (and hasn't for years and years and years)? If New York state was home to a militia that was attacking Ontario, and the US government couldn't or wouldn't stop them would it be unreasonable for Canada to launch a few attacks against them even though they were in US territory?

VERY reasonable.