Our Glorious Afghan Mission

[normbc9]

We have immediate family serving for a fourth assignment in Afghanistan as a High Altitude Heavy Lift chopper pilot. The stories related to us are almost unfathomable. There may be a central government on paper but in the real world of that nation the war lord system and private armies are alive and well. Much of the funding is derived from the sale of opium and other illicit goods. that is all they know and all they can conceive as being a way of every day life. Families are a means of sustenance and support but nothing more. death, while they still grieve just like we do is an accepted fact. The child mortality rates are astounding too. Command positions in the private armies are either due to blood relations or purchased outright for money. Professionals such as physicians and lawyers trained in the west are held in suspicion and are not trusted. Illiteracy reigns supreme and the ones running the show do not support any concepts to educate their people. Information and knowledge are viewed as weapons against this autocratic system. If the US and it's allies don't get serious about the problems facing them in that nation they will learn the same very expensive lesson the Soviets learned when they treid to occupy that nation and make it a satellite of Russia. The answers to the problems facing that nation will never be solved militarily. It is a dep seated social problem and it must be approached in that manner. Schools and good educations will help immensely, not bombs, guns and helicopter gunships. Those who live by the sword will surely perish by the sword.

 

[talloola]

We have immediate family serving for a fourth assignment in Afghanistan as a High Altitude Heavy Lift chopper pilot. The stories related to us are almost unfathomable. There may be a central government on paper but in the real world of that nation the war lord system and private armies are alive and well. Much of the funding is derived from the sale of opium and other illicit goods. that is all they know and all they can conceive as being a way of every day life. Families are a means of sustenance and support but nothing more. death, while they still grieve just like we do is an accepted fact. The child mortality rates are astounding too. Command positions in the private armies are either due to blood relations or purchased outright for money. Professionals such as physicians and lawyers trained in the west are held in suspicion and are not trusted. Illiteracy reigns supreme and the ones running the show do not support any concepts to educate their people. Information and knowledge are viewed as weapons against this autocratic system. If the US and it's allies don't get serious about the problems facing them in that nation they will learn the same very expensive lesson the Soviets learned when they treid to occupy that nation and make it a satellite of Russia. The answers to the problems facing that nation will never be solved militarily. It is a dep seated social problem and it must be approached in that manner. Schools and good educations will help immensely, not bombs, guns and helicopter gunships. Those who live by the sword will surely perish by the sword.

Just wishing your family member "good wishes" in Afghanistan, and for him/her to be safe.
I sure hope they manage to build some schools and other infrastructure to help those people
get a little something back, as they have lost so much, and good for NATO to at least try, and
I know they will have to come out of there sometime soon.
It's too bad the government isn't interested in supplying a good education to it's people, but I guess
without any education, they have no power, and that is where they want them, vulnerable, and
helpless.
At least NATO isn't trying to conquer Afghanistan, as Russia was trying to.

 

[normbc9]

talloola,
Well said and thank you. It is a her (Major, USA 10th mtn. Div.) and she is really complimentary opf the multi-national attempts but she said it is still too little. Whoever it is that sets the goals and plans the sizing of the assistance is far too conservative. Good qualified medical assistance is a primary need along with food and blankets. Mothers give birth to their young in unsheltered conditions and the men are occupying a shelter right next to the birth site. A day after childbirth the mother is expected to be back to the chores and cooking. Other than fighting and sitting around drinking a strong coffee the men do very little to support the family units. One thing the NATO units have is food, water, medical attention and protection from the weather elements with them. That alone is encouraging but no where nearly adequate. She says the bad guys come and go freely and it is difficult to see who the adversaries are. Every man is armed and none wear any kind of uniforms. The guy who gives you coffee at one hour may be the one who tries to shoot you during the next hour.

 

[Zzarchov]

I think it's quite true that noone is innocent in Afghanistan, other than the innocent families.

Most innocent families aren't innocent. They were either actively involved in fighting the Taliban and aren't any worse off with allied forces and probably a whole lot better, or they didn't do a damn thing to keep their neighbours from disappearing in the night, all the while whispering "Better them than us".

That doesn't make you innocent. Only the Children could truly be called innocent.


If we used the same definition of innocent we use now in any other war we'd be under Nazi Jackboots.


If you sit back and let injustice go on because you don't want to get involved, then you lose all claims of innocence.

 

[darkbeaver]

What are you going to do about it? Seriously, DB, people like you irritate me, because you spend hours gleefully attacking Western forces for their mistakes, but you never do anything about the problem yourself. These soldiers see a problem and do something about it, with inescapable mistakes occurring on the way. You, and people like you, point out the mistakes, spout some staged-outrage gibberish about evil imperialist colonialism, then bugger off to the local Starbucks with a hilariously false sense of accomplishment. You are an armchair activist, a talking head that no-one really listens to.

If you disagree with the situation, do something about it. Start an aid campaign, get on the ground, try to fix the problem in whatever way you see fit. If you're not willing to do that, stop pretending you actually give a **** about these poor unfortunates and let those who do get on with their work.

Inescapable mistakes eh. Never been to starbucks.Don't own an armchair. People like you are responsible for problems like the article describes. I could do a lot more by beating the snot out of the next war fan like you that I run into.

 

[I think not]

Inescapable mistakes eh. Never been to starbucks.Don't own an armchair. People like you are responsible for problems like the article describes. I could do a lot more by beating the snot out of the next war fan like you that I run into.

Tickets! Tickets! Get yer tickets!

 

[Doryman]

Inescapable mistakes eh. Never been to starbucks.Don't own an armchair. People like you are responsible for problems like the article describes. I could do a lot more by beating the snot out of the next war fan like you that I run into.

HAH, you could do a lot more to help the suffering innocents of Afghanistan by getting into a losing fight with someone you argue with over the internet? I guess this is a shut-ins version of a Starbucks brag session, huh? Put up or shut up Beaver; do something to prove me wrong, if you can't be arsed to do something to actually help these people.


Oh... and it's West End Village of Edmonton, Callingwood. E-mail me again when you get here for a more exact address.



And yes, inescapable mistakes. Did you ever look at the aerial photos of any of these Taliban or al Qaeda bases. Guess what's right next to the barracks and arms depots.... yep, women and childrens quarters. That's what many experts believe is the reason Clinton never attacked bin Laden when he had the chance. In the briefing photos Clinton was given about Tarnak farm the one that stood out was the mocked-together playground next to the soldiers quarters and the HQ. Clinton knew that these people needed to be put down, but all he could see was that swing.

This is the strategy terrorist organizations adhere to. The surround themselves in innocents as armour. They know that either we will balk at attacking them because of the possible deaths, or we will be forced to do something, at which point they will gain recruits. Accidentally dropping bombs on children from high up may not be the noblest thing... but wearing children as cute little kevlar vests is surely worse.

 

[darkbeaver]

What has your brainwashed post got to do with the phucking article, the deaths in question were the result of neglect not the Taliban, and that old story about hiding behind women has been arround for whole history of warfare. They drag it out every time and it always works on the likes of you, tell me the one about the babies being dumped out of the incubators.:wave:

 

[Doryman]

What has your brainwashed post got to do with the phucking article, the deaths in question were the result of neglect not the Taliban, and that old story about hiding behind women has been arround for whole history of warfare. They drag it out every time and it always works on the likes of you, tell me the one about the babies being dumped out of the incubators.:wave:

The article blames "Bush Amerika" for the deaths of the women and children. NATO is attacking the Taliban, who make sure to always be in close proximity to women and children, which causes the deaths... Need a score card?

And the story has been around because it's always worked for the whole history of warfare, just like it's working for the Taliban now.

IN any case, it seems you're still not up to the challenge. Do something, Beaver, or stop complaining about problems you aren;t trying to fix.

 

[darkbeaver]

The article blames "Bush Amerika" for the deaths of the women and children. NATO is attacking the Taliban, who make sure to always be in close proximity to women and children, which causes the deaths... Need a score card?

And the story has been around because it's always worked for the whole history of warfare, just like it's working for the Taliban now.

IN any case, it seems you're still not up to the challenge. Do something, Beaver, or stop complaining about problems you aren;t trying to fix.

Nato does nothing without American approval, post your proof or shut your cake hole. :laughing7:

 

[darkbeaver]

Tickets! Tickets! Get yer tickets!

Hey ITN if you're going to sell tickets on one of my fights I get a cut.:laughing7::wave:

 

[Doryman]

Nato does nothing without American approval, post your proof or shut your cake hole. :laughing7:

I know, and I don't know what you're getting at. I said NATO because I like to use actual terms.. I could have used 'Evl Bush AmeriKKKA Death forc" like many of your vaunted sources, but I've actually passed puberty, so no thanks.

Still sitting on your hands, loudly doing nothing Beaver? How ..... unsurprisinlgy characteristic.

 

[Zzarchov]

According to the rules of war, bombing women and children is fine as long as you target legitimate targets.

The blame goes to the targets for being near women and children. You aren't supposed to deploy inside a city which has not been evacuated.

If you think the American plan is to seek out women and children to bomb your daft. If there is confusion because Taliban are within 100 miles, then its the Talibans fault.

The rules of war were written as they are for a reason.

 

[L Gilbert]

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[FONT=Verdana,Arial]Mass murder of Afghan women & children[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial]Gideon Polya, MWC.News Network.[/FONT]


[URL]http://www.uruknet.web.at.it/pic.php?f=population.jpg[/URL] [FONT=Verdana,Arial]February 21, 2007[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial]International Laws exist to preserve the happiness, safety and lives of everyone on the Planet. Those who step outside the Law are criminals. Those who step outside International Law and in doing so kill huge numbers of innocent people must unequivocally be described as mass murderers and Americans who do so are subject to the death penalty under US Federal Law. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial][FONT=Verdana,Arial]:: Article nr. 30832 sent on 22-feb-2007 04:40 ECT[/FONT]
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Cut the crap, Beav. I went directly to the UNICEF site and snooped a bit and found that apparently it is not simply the US, NATO, UN, etc. causing grief for Afghan women. Look what I found:

"These extraordinary surveys speak volumes about the challenges facing women and girls in Afghanistan," Bellamy said. "Taliban restrictions on women, coupled with 20 years of war, have set back women's health status immeasurably. With new leadership and ongoing assistance from the international community, Afghanistan has a prime opportunity to reverse this record, starting now. But investment in basic health care will only be beneficial to women if they are supported in accessing that care."

- http://www.unicef.org/newsline/02pr59afghanmm.htm

How about using a bit of objectivity, you guys. Don't pick and choose your facts, get em all. All this friggin polarity is asinine.

 

[normbc9]

My military involvement with the UN was terrible experience. We were tasked to supply starving mnative families aon the edge of the Sahara Desert and we did have a makeshift runway and taxiways capped with a clay type soil. If it rained the stuff became very slick but when it dried out we would use rollers to compact it. Entire plane loads of badly needed relief supplies were being diverted by corrupt military officers of the government asking for help and being routed to balck market sources. Right under the noses of the UN appointees who were supposed to be the keepers of the stored supplies. Physical attacks were witnessed daily upon starving peoples by a different sect of another tribe. Again, all under the nose of the UN staff who wanted to keep everyone appeased. It wasn't working and then I started to fear for the welfare of the UN staff. I voiced that concern to their commander who told me to, just keep you mouth shut and fly in those supplies as you were ordered to do." I diod but I witenessed some terrible attrocities and when I did mnention it later in a debriefing I was chastised for not being understanding of the entire situation. If those behaviors were to occur on our soil there would be ahuge outcry from our citizens. The UN appointees failed those needy people miserably and then later were commended for their spirit and dedication. Excuse me!

 

[earth_as_one]

No one is truly innocent in a country such as afghanistan.


Those who allow an unjust government to exist because they fear retribution empower it. Those who bring children into a world they know could be better are also not innocent.

Cowardice is not a preserver of innocence.


It is also not a justification for murder. But they are no different than the "good little german", Following orders and towing the line does not excuse you from responsibility.

There would be no bombs if they would stand against tyranny themselves.

Afghanistan has been a mess for decades. But when the Soviets got their butts kicked there, world attention turned elsewhere. Over time, Pakistan's Taliban allied with remnants of American Mujahudeen took over most of Afghanistan in a brutal grinding civil war. Afghanistan entered the spotlight again after 9/11.

I think to best way to measure progress is to compare Afghanistan before 9/11 and since:


2000 AFGHANISTAN
Taleban’s Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, headed by Mullah Mohammad Omar, recognized as a government by three countries
Anti-Taleban alliance’s Islamic State of Afghanistan,
headed by Burhanuddin Rabbani, recognized as a
government by other governments and the UN
Capital: Kabul
Population: 23.7 million
Official languages: Dari, Pushtu
Death penalty: retentionist



Human rights abuses by the warring factions against members of rival ethnic groups occurred throughout 1999. Taleban forces burned homes, destroyed orchards, wheat fields and irrigation systems and forcibly displaced more than 100,000 mainly Tajik people. The UN imposed financial and aviation sanctions on the Taleban for not surrendering Osama bin Laden to stand trial for his alleged involvement in US embassy bombings in August 1998. Women, children, human rights defenders, members of ethnic groups, people accused of homosexual activity, and refugees were systematically targeted by the Taleban and other warring factions on the basis of their identity. Taleban courts imposed sentences of death, amputation and flogging after apparently unfair trials.



Covering events from January - December 2001
Afghanistan
Chairman of the Interim Administration: Hamid Karzai (replaced President Burhanuddin Rabbani and the Taleban, headed by Mullah Mohammad Omar, in December)
Capital: Kabul
Population: 22.5 million
Official languages: Dari, Pushtu
Death penalty: retentionist

There were grave, systematic and widespread human rights abuses throughout the year. Violations of international humanitarian law were committed in the context of armed conflict between the Taleban and the National Islamic United Front for the Salvation of Afghanistan (United Front, commonly referred to as the Northern Alliance). Torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment and punishment were inflicted by the Taleban. Women were denied basic rights including access to education and employment, and were subjected to systematic ill-treatment, such as beatings. The death penalty continued to be imposed. Forces of the United Front reportedly tortured, ill-treated, and executed some captured Taleban and al-Qa'ida fighters. Drought and internal conflict swelled the number of refugees and internally displaced people. The number of people fleeing their homes increased further in anticipation of, and during, the international conflict between Taleban and al-Qa'ida forces, and the US-led coalition. An unknown number of Afghan civilians were killed or injured during the bombing campaign by the USA and its coalition allies.

Covering events from January - December 2002
AFGHANISTAN
President of the Transitional Administration: Hamid Karzai
Death penalty: retentionist
International Criminal Court: not signed

There were significant improvements in the human rights situation following the establishment of a new government in late 2001. Reconstruction of institutions responsible for enforcing the rule of law was ongoing, but essential institutions, including the police, prisons and judiciary, were undermined by a lack of resources and a tenuous security situation. Grave human rights abuses and armed conflict continued. Hundreds of people were arbitrarily detained and held in poor prison conditions. Impunity remained entrenched and perpetrators of human rights violations largely went unpunished. Violence continued with factional fighting between regional commanders and armed militias. Mass graves were discovered. Despite the lifting of restrictions on their freedom of movement, women feared for their security and were subjected to acts of violence, rape, public harassment and intimidation. Civilian deaths mounted as a result of continued US-led military air strikes and ground operations. Ethnic violence and retribution killings left a vast number of people internally displaced. Around 1.9 million refugees returned from neighbouring states, some under pressure from host countries, to live in an unsustainable and unstable post-conflict environment. The death penalty was imposed after trials that fell short of international fair trial standards.

Afghanistan

Afghanistan AFGHANISTAN
President of the Transitional Administration:Hamid Karzai
Death penalty:retentionist
International Criminal Court:ratified
UN Women’s Convention:ratified
Optional Protocol to UN Women’s Convention:not signed

Further information

Afghanistan: Abduction and rape at the point of a gun
(AI Index: ASA 11/013/2004)

Afghanistan: Women failed by progress in Afghanistan
(AI Index: ASA 11/015/2004)

USA: Human dignity denied – Torture and accountability in the “war on terror”
(AI Index: AMR 51/145/2004)
All AI documents on Afghanistan
Covering events from January - December 2004
Lawlessness and insecurity increased, hampering efforts towards peace and stability. Anti-government forces killed civilians involved in the electoral process, making large parts of the country inaccessible to humanitarian organizations. US forces continued arbitrary and unlawful detentions and failed to conduct independent investigations of reports that Afghan prisoners had been tortured and ill-treated. Armed groups committed abuses against civilians with impunity, including the abduction and rape of girls. Justice and redress were unobtainable for women who experienced widespread discrimination and violence in the community, including abduction, rape and forced marriage. Refugees were pressured into returning to Afghanistan despite continuing threats to their safety. A military commander was secretly executed after an unfair trial.

 

[Sparrow]

EXERPTS OF AFGANIS HISTORY

It was not until 1747 that Afghanistan was able to free itself. This was the year that Nadir Shah, an empire builder from Iran, died and left a vacuum in central Asia that a former Afghan bodyguard, named Ahmed Shah, was able to fill. Ahmad was a Pashtun, and his Pashtun clan was to rule Afghanistan, in one form or another, for the next 200 years.

Ahmad was able to unify the different Afghan tribes, and went on to conquer considerable parts of what are today eastern Iran, Pakistan, northern India and Uzbekistan. His successors though proved unable to hold his vast empire together, and within 50 years much of it had been seized by rival regional powers. Within the country there were numerous bloody civil wars for the throne, and for may Afghanis it meant little that their lives were now being uprooted and destroyed by ethnic kin as opposed to foreign INVADERS.
NATO was invited into the country by a puppet gov. so after reading the above could it be we are not winning because we are not getting any help from the people......
Beginning in the 1800s Afghanistan’s internal affairs became dramatically aggravated by the increasing intervention by two new imperialist powers – the British Empire and Czarist Russia. The British were expanding and consolidating their colonial holdings on the India sub-continent, and were looking at the Hindu Kush mountains of Afghanistan as a natural barrier to prevent invasion by rival imperialists. The Russians, for their part, were expanding south and east, swallowing up several formerly independent sultanates and emirates in Central Asia. The two great powers essentially engaged in a race for Afghanistan, and their fiendish seizures of land, overthrow of indigenous nations and reckless interference into the affairs of the remaining independent states in the region became known as "the Great Game."
Could it be they are fed-up with foreigners?
Here is the site:http://www.afghangovernment.com/briefhistory.htm read the rest for yourselves. It is an interesting read, and I came away with a completely different look at this war.

 

[mabudon]

Good thing they agree on paper to the ICC and that status of women thing, at least there's documents saying that everything is good. I wonder what the reality on the ground is tho?? I've seen enough things to make me think that most of that "progress" is just western dreams, but we'll see soon enough (almost soon enough)

 

[darkbeaver]

According to the rules of war, bombing women and children is fine as long as you target legitimate targets.

The blame goes to the targets for being near women and children. You aren't supposed to deploy inside a city which has not been evacuated.

If you think the American plan is to seek out women and children to bomb your daft. If there is confusion because Taliban are within 100 miles, then its the Talibans fault.

The rules of war were written as they are for a reason.

The American military pay no attention to the rules of war, civilians are the most effective targets of state terrorism. The Empire has torn up or refused to sign every international treaty covering the rules of war.:wave:

 

[darkbeaver]

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[FONT=Verdana,Arial] [/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial]Taliban 'in control' in Helmand[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial] [/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial] James Bays, Aljazeera.net[/FONT]

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[FONT=Verdana,Arial]February 23, 2007
Helmand province, Afghanistan

Al Jazeera has uncovered evidence that Taliban fighters are now in effective control of large parts of a key province in southwest Afghanistan, despite recent claims by Nato that their bases had been destroyed.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]James Bays spent two days with the Taliban in Helmand and found that the group is running schools and medical facilities, and is travelling armed and unchallenged by Nato-led forces. Here is his report:[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]Behind Taliban lines, we travelled with a group of fighters across the deserts of Helmand province.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]These hardened men are well-armed, ready for battle - and they told me they are ready for martyrdom too.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]The journeys are often at break-neck speed – because of the risk of Nato air strikes. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]Nato may be the master of the skies - but the Taliban claim that they control large swathes of territory on the ground.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]They took us on a trip - to show us how they operate almost unhindered in many areas.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]New weapons[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]The group operates not only in rural areas but also towns such as Sangin.[/FONT]
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The Taliban say they have new
anti-aircraft weaponsWe filmed along the main street, past the shopping bazaar. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]There were Taliban fighters - with weapons - everywhere, and no sign of Nato or Afghan forces. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]We filmed from a car occupied by heavily armed Taliban fighters, yet the vehicle drove straight past the compound housing the British troops based in the town.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]The Taliban fighters claim the British are too scared to even leave their base.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]The sound of aircraft can be heard - but the fighters are not afraid - they dismissively call the planes "Bush's kites".[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]And they claim soon they will soon be using a new anti-aircraft weapons.

One fighter said: "We are not scared of their aircraft - God is with us. We are not scared of anything."[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]'Spy' hanged[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]For a time, there was confusion about our permission to film. [/FONT]
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This suspected spy was hanged by the TalibanWe were detained - and our telephones and camera were taken, but we were treated extremely well.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]Those the Taliban find guilty of a crime are dealt with much more harshly. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]This is the body of a man hanged by the Taliban. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]They say he was a spy for the Americans - he was carrying an ID card from the US government development agency USAid.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]We were also shown where Nato bombs have fallen.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]Desert rally[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]While we travelled around, there were times when we were not allowed to film - because the Taliban do not want Nato to see pictures of the defences inside their villages.
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[FONT=Verdana,Arial]And when the Taliban took us to a mass rally clearly arranged for us to film, it was somewhat unnerving standing in the desert with such a large group - over 400 Taliban fighters.[/FONT]
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Youngsters joined a Taliban rally in
Helmand provinceThey were even youngsters holding weapons. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]Some were no more than 12-years old while others carried their ammunition in UN food bags.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]The district commander showed me all the land he claims is controlled by his men. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]"Out of 100 per cent, the British don't even control one per cent of Helmand," he said.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]He told me the Taliban is not just a military organisation - he said they have appointed a governor in Helmand and it is now running medical clinics and madrassas, or religious schools. [/FONT]
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[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Arial] [FONT=Verdana,Arial] :: Article nr. 30900 sent on 24-feb-2007 07:16 ECT
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