NEXT Big Lie—biodiversity

[Tonington]

Even when a block is planted with one species of tree there will be others grow up there as well as a few hundred types of plants and I don't know how many species of animals and bugs.

Fewer species of animals and bugs. The current rate sees 50 species of just mammals and amphibians being added to the IUCN red list every year.

But as an example, even if the same number of species were in your mono-species planted block as there were when it was virgin forest, biodiversity would still be lower.

 

[mentalfloss]

I'm voting damngrumpy in 2012.

 

[Cliffy]

Fewer species of animals and bugs. The current rate sees 50 species of just mammals and amphibians being added to the IUCN red list every year.

But as an example, even if the same number of species were in your mono-species planted block as there were when it was virgin forest, biodiversity would still be lower.

Oh, Oh! I'm surprised there hasn't been a rash of the usual suspects screaming "ECO FASCISTS!" about the IUCN. After all, humans are the only species that matters and all other life forms be phuked. The concept that life is an interconnected and interdependent continuum seems to escape the ego-centric, mindless consumer crowd.

 

[petros]

Agricultural expansion, over-exploiting resources, converting forest to plantations, invasive alien species...only a fool would conclude that there is no problem.

Food is bad!

 

[Cliffy]

Actually, I think it is the spread of corporate Agribusiness that is the problem. It has taken away much of the diversity of foods grown in favour of high yield, low cost varieties that are not necessarily nutritious, just convenient. The use of chemical fertilizers and pesticides has degraded our soil to the point that very little can grow without them. GM crops are dangerous because they make the world dependent on GM seeds and chemical additives destroying independent farmers world wide, making room for corporate take overs.

 

[Tonington]

Food is bad!

This, also, is a foolish conclusion...

The use of chemical fertilizers and pesticides has degraded our soil to the point that very little can grow without them.

No...don't confuse a solution with the problem. The problem is nutrient flux is by a long shot in the direction away from the soil...Inputs are dwarfed by the farm output. The solution favoured by Agri-business is to use soil amendments like fertilizer to make soil conditions favourable to growth. Some farmers can use manures, but not all or even most of our farmland. It's not a very healthy ecosystem if you consider Canadian or even North American farms as interconnected.

Think of it this way. Grain is grown in Saskatchewan, shipped to Quebec hog farms, and the hogs go out around the country after slaughter. How do you get the organic matter from human feces and pig feces back to the soil where the primary producer took it from? You can't, and you actually end up with a nutrient surplus on the hog farm. Which can lead to pollution of local water sources. Meanwhile the farmer in Saskatchewan has to add fertilizers to keep yields up, so that his family can survive.

 

[petros]

You don't fertilize with pig ****! Are you nuts?

You really really really have a lot to learn about agriculture.

 

[Bar Sinister]

You don't fertilize with pig ****! Are you nuts?

You really really really have a lot to learn about agriculture.

He didn't say you can't fertilize with hog manure. He implied that it would be too expensive to ship pig manure from Quebec to Saskatchewan. It would be in its raw form.

There is, of course, a way around that problem and that is to use digesters to process the manure using the methane that is given off as fuel and then taking the dried residue that it used behind and packaging it as fertilizer. With the gas and the moisture gone the pig manure, or whatever else is used as the raw material, is greatly reduced in weight and volume and can be easily shipped.

There are, of course, some problems with large scale conversion of organic waste to biogas, but it works quite well on a small scale and can easily be used on individual farms. The technology can be quite simple on a small scale, so much so that it has even been used in villages in India.

 

[Cliffy]

Besides digesting the manure, the simple answer would be to raise the pigs and cows where the feed is grown instead of shipping all over the place. That is very inefficient. If Quebec want s to raise pigs, they should also grow grains to feed them. I farmed in Quebec and we did just that. We arise pigs, dairy cows, fowl, grains and hay. All we have was about 250 acres of arable land.

 

[Tonington]

You don't fertilize with pig ****! Are you nuts?

Not without treatment first...what makes you think that I was suggesting shipping raw pig manure? It's a simple example of nutrient flows within the agricultural system.

 

[YukonJack]

Does bear crap get treated when bears s*it in the woods? Does hippo crap get treated when hippos crap in the River Nile? Did any crap in nature ever get treated in human history before some government decreed that it should be treated? Is crap not the ultimate biodegradable product of life?

 

[Tonington]

Does bear crap get treated when bears s*it in the woods?

Yes, that's what a functioning ecosystem does...

Does hippo crap get treated when hippos crap in the River Nile?

Yes, that's what a functioning ecosystem does...

Did any crap in nature ever get treated in human history before some government decreed that it should be treated?

Yes, only when nature does it it's not called treatment.

Is crap not the ultimate biodegradable product of life?

No...the overwhelming majority of biomass on this planet doesn't have a digestive tract.

So, back on topic, when biodiversity is high, ecosystem stability is high, and nutrient cycling is tight. Farms are not bio-diverse by design.

 

[mentalfloss]

Sounds like global domination to me.

 

[YukonJack]

Well, Tonnington, according to folks of your mindset, humans are nothing more than an insignificant version of animal diversity.

How come then that human activity is decried in your world as something that destroys any possible future of any living creature in the world?

If nature, by it self cleans treats bear crap, hippo crap and probably (but hopelessly liberal crap) how come you object to human help of nature cleaning up and treating crap, thereby making the cleaning and treating more efficient?

BTW, its all a matter of conditioning. A few years ago I lived one little house, next to a dairy farm; I was on my own well and for disposal I had a septic tank. One day, just for curiousity, I took a sample of my well water to the municipal testing lab. The results indicated that both my wife and I should have been dead due to the abundance of E coli bacteria in my well water. A few months later just to be safe, we installed ultra-violet light on our water line, but even in the lack of it, we survived unscathed. I know, you will declare that it effected my brain, but I would expect no less fro someone like you.

Also, in Europe, manure from any farmer's backyard is spread over the land, plowed under, untreated in the farmer's land. Without it the yield would be significantly less.

Also, thanks for the "BAD" rating you so graciously provided on my post to somebody not you. Have you ever or will you ever be smart enough to mind your own business?

 

[Tonington]

Well, Tonnington, according to folks of your mindset, humans are nothing more than an insignificant version of animal diversity.

Not according to me. So maybe you should bring this argument to folks who clearly articulate such things.

How come then that human activity is decried in your world as something that destroys any possible future of any living creature in the world?

Human activity is not decried in my world...harmful activity when it can be shown so is decried. Big difference.

Understand? You could just ask me instead of guessing at what I think or say. You won't look as foolish for a start, and we could perhaps even discuss something rationally if you tried.

And by the way, E. coli is an indicator organism. Most strains aren't even pathogenic under normal conditions. So unless you are already compromised, the majority of those strains will not harm you. That's not conditioning...

 

[petros]

We aleady get enough **** from PQ in return and have to fund their sorry asses. How do you process hog waste into a fertilizer that is properly formulated for today's bio enginered crops cheaper and with less energy than mined salts? What makes pigs salts better than mined salts when it comes to down stream environments? How do you remove the vet drugs and steroids?

Which is easier on the soil rhizos,mychos and amnino acid producing enzymes?

Which fertilizers help the seed to resist rot during and post germination?

Which leave the least sodium behind?

 

[Tonington]

So, the question you're really asking is how can someone return to integrated farming, but still meet the needs of a modern chemical feedstock dominated agri-business.

The answer is the system needs to change.

 

[YukonJack]

petros, sh1t, crap or any other form of waste also known as manure, is already properly formulated. It has been so for thousands, if not millions of years. It is BIODEGRADABLE. It is sustenance and food for the soil as it has been for the last few thousands of years.

Only since government regulators dabbled into something they knew nothing about it changed in order to placate politically correct softies.

 

[Tonington]

petros, sh1t, crap or any other form of waste also known as manure, is already properly formulated. It has been so for thousands, if not millions of years. It is BIODEGRADABLE. It is sustenance and food for the soil as it has been for the last few thousands of years.

Food for the soil doesn't necessarily mean it's safe to eat the crops that grow in the soil...

 

[YukonJack]

Food for the soil doesn't necessarily mean it's safe to eat the crops that grow in the soil...

For hundreds of years it meant exactly that in Europe.

If you were astute enough you would realize that the manure is spread in the fall and the crop that grows on it is harvested in the following summer, almost a year later.

Biodiversity, biodegradability, anyone??