Nasrallah's MEA CULPA ----YEP, THE AMAZING TRUTH SHOWS UP

[earth_as_one]

Re: RE: Nasrallah's MEA CULPA ----YEP, THE AMAZING TRUTH SHO

My, you ARE being silly!

I've already said the Israelis bear some responsibility for the massacre in the camps.....even an Israeli government inquiry acknowledged that.....hardly seems, in that light, to be a government policy of genocide, now does it? Especially considering the Isrealis were not IN the camps (although they observed from outside the camps without preventing it, bad enough I admit), and NO ISRAELI PULLED A TRIGGER in the action.

The driver of the get-away car is just as guilty of the crime as the bank robbers

Palestinians that stayed in Israel are full Israeli citizens, they vote, hold seats in the Knesset, have full rights of citizenship EXCEPT they can not hold arms and are not required (nor permitted) to serve in the Israeli military. (with the exception of the Bedouin)

Hardly a concentration camp.

Some Arab villages in Israel still remain without recognition or services since Israel's creation. Its a fact that non-Jew Israelis don't have as many rights as Jews regarding immigration, land ownership, education...

The non-Jew Palestinians who found themselves forcibly removed from their land and property confiscated do live in conditions which meet the definition of a concentration camp. They are under economic and military seige. The Israeli destroys their homes, assassinates their leaders, controls water, electricity, food... commits war crimes and crimes against humanity.... people are assassinated... children are killed in the classrooms, on the way to school, buying icecream...

How would you describe their condition. I call it a series of concentration camps.

Those who live in the occupied territories have a hard lot. But what choice does Israel have? Israel would gladly return the West Bank to Jordan, but that nation has already had its fill of the PLO in the 70s, and will not discuss it. Likewise with the Gaza and Egypt.

When Israel unilaterally abandons its occupation, the land it leaves instantly becomes a staging area for attacks into Israel. Witness Lebanon and the Gaza strip.

Israel is surrounded by millions of angry people. Over time the number of people pissed with Israel increases. If Israel does not solve the root cause of all this anger, it will be at war constantly. "Measured responses" like Lebanon and Gaza will not lead to peace. Time for the world to see the truth about the genocide and ethnic cleansing going on in Palestine and hold Israel to the same standards as Yugoslavia and Rwanda.

So, as I asked before, what choice does Israel HAVE?

Don't talk about past sins, but what could they do NOW to bring peace?

I can practically hear your reply already, and I anticipate it will be one the garauntees the destruction of Israel.

BTW, I don't give a damn about what the UN says, thinks, or does. They are the allies of those that would destroy Israel. That simple.

Or did you miss the UN conference in Durban, S.A. a few years ago? It largely resembled a Nuremberg rally under Hitler, complete with marches where people carried posters of hook-nosed Jews with hands running blood.

The truth can set you free.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_and_Reconciliation_Commission

 

[earth_as_one]

RE: Nasrallah's MEA CULPA ----YEP, THE AMAZING TRUTH SHOWS U

Tuesday, June 25, 2002 in the Times of London
Gaza 'War' Likely to Escalate Bloodshed
by Richard Beeston, Diplomatic Editor

ISRAEL’S preparations yesterday for a massive military offensive against militants in the Gaza Strip threatened to escalate seriously the bloody two-year conflict with the Palestinians.

As Israeli military reservists were called up and Gazans prepared for the assault, there were fears that any incursion on the ground could turn months of sporadic fighting into a set-piece battle.

Unlike the West Bank, where the Israeli Defense Forces have concentrated their operations against suspected militants for six months, the Gaza Strip has been left largely intact.

The reason is obvious to both sides. Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on earth and most of the population of more than one million is made up of Palestinian refugees living in crowded shanty towns. ...

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0625-05.htm

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/live-from-lebanon.shtml

 

[jimmoyer]

RE: Nasrallah's MEA CULPA ----YEP, THE AMAZING TRUTH SHOWS U

Nevertheless...never the less,
Nasrallah still apologized for jeopardizing southern
Lebanon by screwing with Israel.

 

[earth_as_one]

RE: Nasrallah's MEA CULPA ----YEP, THE AMAZING TRUTH SHOWS U

Actually Hezbollah militants screwed with Israel, not Lebanese civilians. Hezbollah's raid on the Israeli military along the border was part of a longterm relationship where each side has been screwing with each other for over 20 years.

What's new is that Israel escalated minor almost routine cross border raid by Hezbollah into killing innocent civilians. Over the longterm, committing war crimes is not in Israel's best interest.

Hezbollah waited for nearly two days of Israeli war crimes before it began targeting Israeli civilians. Hezbollah really had little choice but to respond in kind.

How long should Hezbollah have waited?

Was waiting two days and watching Israel kill several hundred innocent civilians dead long enough?

 

[Machjo]

RE: Nasrallah's MEA CULPA ----YEP, THE AMAZING TRUTH SHOWS U

I'm not defending Israel here, but just because Israel targetted civilians, Hizbulah had no business to respond in kind.

Also, while I'm well aware of Israel's repeated UN violations over a period of decades, along with its claiming extra territory in violation of said UN resolutions, that is still no reason for Hizbullah to kidnap Israeli soldiers.

Hizbullah still has the option of doing things legally. In other words, form the legal government of Lebanon, and then send an ambassador to the UN general Assemply to lodge a formal complaint, and perhaps even send Israel an initial warning that if it doesn't abide by all past UN resolutions within a year, war will be declared. Then, maybe, Hizbullah will find itself with allies. Until then, it's simply stooping to the same level as the Israeli government. So whom do I support between two fanatical organizations? None.

 

[elevennevele]

RE: Nasrallah's MEA CULPA

Has anything of the legal avenue worked with Israel before? There have been many people who have tried to go the legal route. Even as far as land claims with the Palestinians, and there have been Palestinians who did have the papers to show ownership.

All those UN resolutions against Israel are the legal route. Have they been enforced? We are talking in decades here of an inability to bring forth accountability onto Israel.

Palestinians are now starving. Their borders are locked under the control of the Israelis and the Palestinians are now starving. How much more time do you feel they have to keep trying the legal route? You tell me what standards we should expect out of desperate people?

Do you feel Hezbollah would fair any better? Countries like Canada won’t even allow anyone here to hold dialogue with them.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article1372026.ece

13 September 2006 10:31

'Gaza is a jail. Nobody is allowed to leave. We are all starving now'
By Patrick Cockburn in Gaza
Published: 08 September 2006

Gaza is dying. The Israeli siege of the Palestinian enclave is so tight that its people are on the edge of starvation. Here on the shores of the Mediterranean a great tragedy is taking place that is being ignored because the world's attention has been diverted by wars in Lebanon and Iraq.

A whole society is being destroyed. There are 1.5 million Palestinians imprisoned in the most heavily populated area in the world. Israel has stopped all trade. It has even forbidden fishermen to go far from the shore so they wade into the surf to try vainly to catch fish with hand-thrown nets.

 

[earth_as_one]

Re: RE: Nasrallah's MEA CULPA ----YEP, THE AMAZING TRUTH SHO

I'm not defending Israel here, but just because Israel targetted civilians, Hizbulah had no business to respond in kind.

Also, while I'm well aware of Israel's repeated UN violations over a period of decades, along with its claiming extra territory in violation of said UN resolutions, that is still no reason for Hizbullah to kidnap Israeli soldiers.

Hizbullah still has the option of doing things legally. In other words, form the legal government of Lebanon, and then send an ambassador to the UN general Assemply to lodge a formal complaint, and perhaps even send Israel an initial warning that if it doesn't abide by all past UN resolutions within a year, war will be declared. Then, maybe, Hizbullah will find itself with allies. Until then, it's simply stooping to the same level as the Israeli government. So whom do I support between two fanatical organizations? None.

I do not support violent solutions to problems either.

The problem with the UN is that even though the majority of the world's leaders and diplomats are well aware of what is going on, they are powerless to do anything about it, whenever any permanent member uses its veto powers. If you are powerful enough or protected, some world leaders can commit war crimes while the rest of the world can only issue strong condemnations.

The UN no longer balances power realistically.

Veto weilding UNSC members can do what they want.

Permanent members achieved their status when they acquired nuclear weapons. Since then Israel, India, North Korea, and Pakistan joined the nuclear club without getting permanent member status. Countries like Canada, Japan, Australia and others... could have developed nuclear weapons but chose not to in accordance to the NPT. All the permanent members meanwhile remain in violation of the NPT.

Now we have a middle east on the brink of unrestricted war. Clandestine nuclear weapon programs in Saudi Arabia and Iran threaten world stability.

The UN has passed many resolutions over the years regarding Israel. Most of the resolutions which aren't vetoed by the US vetos are ignored by Israel.

Your viewpoint that one country has no right to target another country's citizens even in retaliation is reasonable, for someone with nothing at stake. I wonder how long you would support maintaining the moral highground if the innocent victims were fellow Canadians and the UN did nothing? How about friends and relatives? How would you feel about someone telling you that you have no right to vengence? Would you listen?

 

[Machjo]

RE: Nasrallah's MEA CULPA ----YEP, THE AMAZING TRUTH SHOWS U

Fair enough. I am aware that international law does allow a nation to defend itself. In this respect, I suppose Israeli occupation can be viewed as a declaration of war. Again, I don't know the details here as pertains to international law. If that is the case, then why do they not do it the right way? Hizbullah is not a government body. So why does the government itself not declare war on Israel with the clear mandate of reclaiming land taken by israel in violation of UN resolution number ....

Then it would be made clear that the attack would be legal. To simply kidnap Israeli soldiers is not the way to go about it.

By having such a clear mandate, they'd also be giving Israel an option (retreat back behind previous borders as acknowledged by internaitonal law, and we will immediately cease our attacks). Then no one could call them warmongers since they would simply be doing things in accordance with international law, and maybe even get some allies in the process.

But as they're doing it now, have they even defined their mandate? It's totally disorganised and ad hock, no one really knowing where they stand exactly beyond attacking Israel now and then without any clearly defined mandate.

 

[thomaska]

Re: Nasrallah's MEA CULPA ----YEP, THE AMAZING TRUTH SHOWS U

Hezbollah militants broke international law by firing thousands of rockets into Israel and killing dozens of civilians during the recent conflict with Israel, Amnesty International charged Thursday.

The human rights group called for a United Nations inquiry into what it called war crimes by Israel and Hezbollah, but its report focused on the actions of the Lebanese militants during the 34-day conflict.

Hezbollah launched nearly 4,000 rockets into northern Israel in July and August, killing at least 39 civilians. The firing of rockets into urban areas in northern Israel disregarded international laws that call for distinguishing between civilian and military targets, Amnesty said.

“Targeting civilians is a war crime. There’s no gray area,” said Larry Cox, Amnesty’s executive director in the United States. Although Hezbollah denies targeting Israeli civilians, it fired inaccurate rockets packed with thousands of metal ball bearings to maximize harm to noncombatants, Amnesty said.

Hezbollah had no immediate comment Thursday on the Amnesty report. The report is Amnesty’s most extensive condemnation of Hezbollah since the conflict began in July. It comes after Amnesty accused Israel of violating international law with indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks on civilian targets in Lebanon. The human rights group also previously called on Hezbollah to release two kidnapped Israeli soldiers and abstain from targeting civilians.

Violence erupted between Israel and Lebanon after Hezbollah militants kidnapped two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid on July 12. The ensuing fighting left more than 1,000 people dead, mostly Lebanese civilians, UNICEF said. A U.N.-brokered cease-fire in August quelled the violence and Israel and Hezbollah have mostly complied with the order, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan said this week.

Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Mark Regev said he had no doubt that the Islamic militia fired rockets in a premeditated way to kill a maximum number of civilians. “It is also important to remember that the leaders of Hezbollah have spoken on many occasions about their desire to destroy the state of Israel,” Regev said.

Amnesty plans to publish additional reports studying whether Hezbollah contributed to civilian deaths in Lebanon by purposely hiding among civilians, said Nicole Choueiry, a spokesman for Amnesty in Britain. Israel and Lebanon reject the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Netherlands making any prosecution there unlikely.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationw...71813.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines


Patiently waiting on main stream media coverage and outrage.....still waiting......

 

[I think not]

Re: Nasrallah's MEA CULPA ----YEP, THE AMAZING TRUTH SHOWS U

Patiently waiting on main stream media coverage and outrage.....still waiting......

You'll have a long wait.

 

[thomaska]

Re: Nasrallah's MEA CULPA ----YEP, THE AMAZING TRUTH SHOWS U

Patiently waiting on main stream media coverage and outrage.....still waiting......

You'll have a long wait.

No doubt...

 

[earth_as_one]

RE: Nasrallah's MEA CULPA ----YEP, THE AMAZING TRUTH SHOWS U

Both sides committed war crimes, but the posts above omit two important points:

1) Israel killed more than 25 times as many innocent civilians as Hezbollah.

2) Israel had been killing innocent civilians for nearly two days before Hezbollah began targeting civilians in response.

Here are the stats from this war:

Military Casualties:

IDF:
119 dead [8]
400+ injured
2 captured

Hezbollah:
74 dead confirmed by Hezbollah [4] (although the IDF claims an estimated 550-700[5])
21 captured

Civilian Casualties:

Lebanese civilians killed by the IDF:
1,187 dead[9]
3,600 wounded [9]
256,000 internally displaced [9]

Israeli civilians killed by Hezbollah:
44 dead [8][10][11]
1,350+ injured [12]

References
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict

BBC: Day-by-day: Lebanon crisis - week one
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5179434.stm

If Israel had not started killing civilians first, its likely Hezbollah would not have targeted civilians in response.

If Hezbollah had not started killing civilians, Israel might not have agreed to a truce and kept killing civilians.

 

[thomaska]

Re: Nasrallah's MEA CULPA ----YEP, THE AMAZING TRUTH SHOWS U

If Israel had not started killing civilians first, its likely Hezbollah would not have targeted civilians in response.

If Hezbollah had not started killing civilians, Israel might not have agreed to a truce and kept killing civilians.

Translated = Terrorist apologist

 

[earth_as_one]

RE: Nasrallah's MEA CULPA ----YEP, THE AMAZING TRUTH SHOWS U

Answer a question t,

Which side first escalated the initial border conflict involving military personnel/targets to include civilian targets?

Let me give you a hint:

Source:
http://www.downtownbeirut.com/Genocide/israel-genocide-in-lebanon.htm
WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGES OF WAR

What would be a measured response to a measured response like the above?

 

[Colpy]

RE: Nasrallah's MEA CULPA ----YEP, THE AMAZING TRUTH SHOWS U

Last night I watched a CBC program that spoke with several prominent Lebanese citizens......one angrily accused Nashrallah of hiding in a bunker in the Iranian Embassy while his fighters and other Lebanese died outside.......another, a government member spoke of how angry the non-Shiite population is with Hezbollah for bringing this down on them, the third (Wally Jumblatt, leader of the Druze for decades, why I recognized and remembered his name), spoke of how Hezbollah were the enemies of Lebanon.........interesting, not the usual view from the CBC, that's for sure.

 

[Just the Facts]

Re: RE: Nasrallah's MEA CULPA ----YEP, THE AMAZING TRUTH SHO

What would be a measured response to a measured response like the above?

How about accepting the existance of Israel, putting away the weapons and working with the rest of humanity to build a better world.

At very least, let the government of Lebanon rule Lebanon.

 

[earth_as_one]

RE: Nasrallah's MEA CULPA ----YEP, THE AMAZING TRUTH SHOWS U

Like the way the US and Israel do?

October 7, 2002
President Bush Outlines Iraqi Threat

...the Iraqi regime was required to destroy its weapons of mass destruction, to cease all development of such weapons, and to stop all support for terrorist groups. The Iraqi regime has violated all of those obligations. It possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons. It has given shelter and support to terrorism, and practices terror against its own people. The entire world has witnessed Iraq's eleven-year history of defiance, deception and bad faith.

We also must never forget the most vivid events of recent history. On September the 11th, 2001, America felt its vulnerability -- even to threats that gather on the other side of the earth. We resolved then, and we are resolved today, to confront every threat, from any source, that could bring sudden terror and suffering to America...

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021007-8.html

Besides that's been tried:

 

[Just the Facts]

Re: RE: Nasrallah's MEA CULPA ----YEP, THE AMAZING TRUTH SHO

Like the way the US and Israel do?

Yes, exactly. Your picture gallery does a lot to add colour to these pages, but adds nothing to the discussions.

How many time was the U.S. attacked before finally saying enough! after 9/11?

How many times was Israel attacked before finally saying enough! to Hizboallah, and especially the "Palestinians" in Gaza?

I'm unimpressed by your depictions of the destruction unleashed by the U.S. and Israel. I feel for the average citizen who is blameless, but other than that, it was thoroughly asked for.

 

[earth_as_one]

RE: Nasrallah's MEA CULPA ----YEP, THE AMAZING TRUTH SHOWS U

Lets add up the carnage here.

How many times did we attacked the people of the middle east before 9/11?

How many times have we disposed their democratically elected governments and replaced them with pro-west dictators before 9/11?

How many times did we meddle in their affairs to our benefit, without considering the interests of the people before 9/11?

How long did our corporations and pro-west dictators stolen their oil wealth.

How long did we support and benefit from middle east injustice and oppression before 9/11?

Some of them are probably angry that we Imposed a colony of European refugees in their backyard, heavily armed them and look the other way while they ethnically cleanse hundreds of thousands of people off their land.

When these savages have the gall to demand fundamental human rights we slaughter them by the hundreds of thousands.

Treat others as you would have them treat you.

Would anyone want to have been treated as we have treated these people?

By the time 9/11 happened we had already caused many orders of magnitude more suffering in the middle east than 9/11.

9/11 was inevitable. So is another 9/11 unless we recognize and begin dealing with the root causes of their anger.

The Iraq invasion has not made us safer. It killed about 100,000 people and led to civil war.

Israel's attempt to invade Lebanon did not make Israel safer either. It killed about 1500 people and united the Lebanese people.

All these wars have done is unite the people of the middle east against us.

 

[Just the Facts]

Re: RE: Nasrallah's MEA CULPA ----YEP, THE AMAZING TRUTH SHO

How many times did we attacked the people of the middle east before 9/11?

You tell me. I'm not aware of any. I'm aware of a few peacekeeping missions that went bad. I wouldn't call that "attacking".

How many times have we disposed their democratically elected governments and replaced them with pro-west dictators before 9/11?

Again, you tell me. and BTW, picking sides...does not equal "disposing and replacing". Just helping along. 8)

How many times did we meddle in their affairs to our benefit, without considering the interests of the people before 9/11?

No idea. International politics is and has for millennia been a sordid affair filled with deception and intrigue. Everyone meddled. Get used to it.

How long did our corporations and pro-west dictators stolen their oil wealth.

Steal their oil wealth? They CREATED their oil wealth. Newsflash...Camels don't run on oil.

How long did we support and benefit from middle east injustice and oppression before 9/11?

Have we ever?

Some of them are probably angry that we Imposed a colony of European refugees in their backyard, heavily armed them and look the other way while they ethnically cleanse hundreds of thousands of people off their land.

Not gonna bother with that one. Literally hundreds of Israel threads here to choose from. One point though, there's always a denial that Israel is the homeland of the Jews...that's injustice too. They didn't just close their eyes, spin a globe and stick a pin in it, and say okay, we'll put the Jewish refugees here. "Palestine" is Judea. Figure it out already.

When these savages have the gall to demand fundamental human rights we slaughter them by the hundreds of thousands.

Yeah. Okay. :roll:

Treat others as you would have them treat you.

Exactly. But when they don't reciprocate, do unto them before they do unto you.

By the time 9/11 happened we had already caused many orders of magnitude more suffering in the middle east than 9/11.

For instance?

9/11 was inevitable. So is another 9/11 unless we recognize and begin dealing with the root causes of their anger.

Agreed.

The Iraq invasion has not made us safer. It killed about 100,000 people and led to civil war.

Don't know how many it killed, but the only thing that led to civil war is two warring parties who don't understand the concept of compromise. Yes, took us by surprise, but hardly our fault. Nobody is forcing Sunni's and Shia's to kill each other.

Israel's attempt to invade Lebanon did not make Israel safer either. It killed about 1500 people and united the Lebanese people.

That's debateable. Lots of differing opinions in Lebanon, from what I'm hearing. And speaking of ethnic cleansing, what happened to all the Christians in Lebanon?

All these wars have done is unite the people of the middle east against us.

You mean they weren't united against us before?