Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

[no more drugs]

Many of us probably remember the horrific fatal shooting last year by Calgary, right b4 Xmas where the boyfriend Derek Jensen drove his car into the vehicle in which his girlfriend was in, along with 3 of her other friends all on their way to drive 2 boys to the airport so they could go home to PEI for Xmas. They were going to be professional baseball players.

When Shayna stopped the car after he rammed them on the highway he shot all 4, then he killed himself

Thankfully, one managed to live (Shayna, who was not the former girlfriend)

I was disappointed to learn that tox reports are not made public and are not released when the perp is dead.

"RCMP say the investigation into the murders is not over. They are conducting toxicology tests on Derek Jensen's body but will not be releasing the results because no charges will be laid.

Read more: Funeral held for shooting victim | CTV Calgary News

I did wonder if he suffered a side effect of a legal mind altering drug....

Last night W5 aired the story .... It was watching the story that I heard for the first time that the reporter on W5 said that Derek Jensen had been on antipsychotics......................................................................................................................................

In this sad story we did hear of mind altering drug use, but in many crimes there are no reports ever talked about or released so the public never gets to read how many crimes are being committed while on mind altering drugs that carry the side effect of suicidal homicidal ideation...violnt behavioréagression... sounds classic too me..

Sadly W5 never mentioned what side effects can be caused by antipsychotic drugs.....

 

[gerryh]

what's your solution?

 

[no more drugs]

I always think that solutions are found with awareness, education, thus numbers...

The more people who become aware of a problem, the bigger chance we have of finding a good solution...

Sadly, Gerry, I personally think we are only at the `bringing awareness` stage.

If the public start speaking up and demanding these reports whether charges re laid or not, the more we will learn..

If society was seeing all these types of crimes were being done by people on legal, pharmaceuticals (antidepressanst and antipsychotics) would something have to improve somewehreÉ I would personally hope so.. at last thats the way I see it..

 

[Cliffy]

I completely agree that there is a problem with pharmaceutical drugs being over prescribed for mental health issues.

But I think that one thread on the subject is sufficient. Perhaps the mods could amalgamate all of no more drugs posts into one like they did with china's.

 

[gerryh]

I always think that solutions are found with awareness, education, thus numbers...

The more people who become aware of a problem, the bigger chance we have of finding a good solution...

Sadly, Gerry, I personally think we are only at the `bringing awareness` stage.

If the public start speaking up and demanding these reports whether charges re laid or not, the more we will learn..

If society was seeing all these types of crimes were being done by people on legal, pharmaceuticals (antidepressanst and antipsychotics) would something have to improve somewehreÉ I would personally hope so.. at last thats the way I see it..

You didn't answer the question. YOU are the one whining and bitching about how terrible these drugs are. What is your solution? Or do you not have a solution? Are you just one of those people that whine and bitch about everything and expect others to come up with solutions to THEIR PERCEIVED problems?

 

[no more drugs]

You didn't answer the question. YOU are the one whining and bitching about how terrible these drugs are. What is your solution? Or do you not have a solution? Are you just one of those people that whine and bitch about everything and expect others to come up with solutions to THEIR PERCEIVED problems?

lol Gerry,

I thought I did answer your question.. I will try again..

I dont see myself as a whiner and complainer....

I see myself as an educator who tries to share information to help society....

I told you how I see a "solution" being achieved which is by bringing awareness..

I wrote that bringing awareness is the first step in achieving a solution and at this point in time, I feel that awareness hasnt been achieved yet.

I feel that forums are a great place to bring awareness and direct others (who are receptive) to information they may not have known about.

The information and opinions I have brought may change or help one other person be more informed so that they may end up making different decisions that may better impact their furture.. If this was the case, then we could say it is the beginning of a solution in the right direction...

It would be foolish to think one person comes to a forum and states a solutions for a huge problem, not many know exists..!

Thanks for reading Gerry!

 

[gerryh]

The only thing I have seen from you, so far, is unsubstantiated claims concerning drugs and violence.

 

[no more drugs]

The only thing I have seen from you, so far, is unsubstantiated claims concerning drugs and violence.

Why do you say my claims are unsubstantiated? The claims of violence (murder and suicide) on antidepressanst/antipsychotics (drugs) have been alleged by reporters and family in every story I brought..I provided links as well..

This thread is to inform you that many crimes have happened where we as the public will never know what was on the tox report because charges werent laid so the report is never made public...

Maybe you didnt read my posts?? You dont seem to have a good understanding of what i wrote... ?

 

[lone wolf]

Until someone perfects tailor-made pharmacology, trial and error is the best we have. Some people aren't happy in their chemical straitjackets and some couldn't live a near normal life without them. There are no easy answers.

 

[gerryh]

Why do you say my claims are unsubstantiated? The claims of violence (murder and suicide) on antidepressanst/antipsychotics (drugs) have been alleged by reporters and family in every story I brought..I provided links as well..

This thread is to inform you that many crimes have happened where we as the public will never know what was on the tox report because charges werent laid so the report is never made public...

Maybe you didnt read my posts?? You dont seem to have a good understanding of what i wrote... ?

You haven't posted anything to back up your accusations. Post proof that the drugs were directly responsible for the people getting violent. Everything so far has been circumstantial.

 

[no more drugs]

You haven't posted anything to back up your accusations. Post proof that the drugs were directly responsible for the people getting violent. Everything so far has been circumstantial.

Wait a minute Gerr...

Do you agree that homicidal and suicidal ideation, loss of relaity and delusion, are known adverse reactions with antipressansts and pscychotropics?

This is written by the manufacturers and the CPS at the drug store also confirm these adverse side effects...

On account that we do that suicidal and homicidal ideation does in fact occur, how can you dismiss the possiblliy that it was the side effects that controlled the person ?

It seems to me like this is pretty scientific...

 

[taxslave]

Until someone perfects tailor-made pharmacology, trial and error is the best we have. Some people aren't happy in their chemical straitjackets and some couldn't live a near normal life without them. There are no easy answers.

Some also choose not to follow the instructions on the bottle either.

 

[gerryh]

Wait a minute Gerr...

Do you agree that homicidal and suicidal ideation, loss of relaity and delusion, are known adverse reactions with antipressansts and pscychotropics?

This is written by the manufacturers and the CPS at the drug store also confirm these adverse side effects...

On account that we do that suicidal and homicidal ideation does in fact occur, how can you dismiss the possiblliy that it was the side effects that controlled the person ?

It seems to me like this is pretty scientific...

Possibility's are no better than maybe's and perhaps.

 

[no more drugs]

Possibility's are no better than maybe's and perhaps.

After how many???????? How many "possibilities" for you start being more than coincidences..

Sadly, science doesnt work the way you are expecting it to.

Thalidomide was banned because it was LINKED to birth defects ...

How was it linked ???

by possibility after possibility... circumstance after circumstance..... situation after situation...

Talking brought awareness, and transparency brought enough "probablies" together to bring change......

 

[Sal]

After how many???????? How many "possibilities" for you start being more than coincidences..

Sadly, science doesnt work the way you are expecting it to.

Thalidomide was banned because it was LINKED to birth defects ...

How was it linked ???

by possibility after possibility... circumstance after circumstance..... situation after situation...

Talking brought awareness, and transparency brought enough "probablies" together to bring change......

I agree that it is something to consider. I agree that the taker if they have the ability to be lucid and make sane choices should most certainly be informed that suicide/homicidal thoughts can occur when taking the medication.

When brain chemistry has gone that awry causing a need for psychotropic drugs in order to live an everyday life one would hope that the individual receives on-going counselling.

There are many variables at play here that we do not know about. Mental health is in its infancy.

Were the individuals aware of possible side effects? Were they taking the drug regularly and consistently? Did they report problems?

One such case I vaguely remember was a doctor in Toronto who if I recall jumped in front of a subway car with her new born. She had tried to seek help. Our overburdened system did not respond correctly. It was tragic. I believe in her case it was post-par tum psychosis

Educating the public is important so that they may be more aware of possible danger signs/warnings of friends and or loved ones and know how they need to respond.

Often times our system just does not have the proper backup to respond adequately.

 

[no more drugs]

I agree that it is something to consider. I agree that the taker if they have the ability to be lucid and make sane choices should most certainly be informed that suicide/homicidal thoughts can occur when taking the medication.

When brain chemistry has gone that awry causing a need for psychotropic drugs in order to live an everyday life one would hope that the individual receives on-going counselling.

There are many variables at play here that we do not know about. Mental health is in its infancy.

Were the individuals aware of possible side effects? Were they taking the drug regularly and consistently? Did they report problems?

One such case I vaguely remember was a doctor in Toronto who if I recall jumped in front of a subway car with her new born. She had tried to seek help. Our overburdened system did not respond correctly. It was tragic. I believe in her case it was post-par tum psychosis

Educating the public is important so that they may be more aware of possible danger signs/warnings of friends and or loved ones and know how they need to respond.

Often times our system just does not have the proper backup to respond adequately.

Hi Sal,

Im glad you brought up the very sad case of Susan Killinger-Johnson....

Unbeknownst to many, she was also a victim of antidepressansts... not of her own natural mind (with or without postpartum..

She was in her right mind when she decided to seek out help for what was described as post portum ...She was pit on Antidepressanst ....

She was in withdrawal (better known as discontinuance syndrome) as she stopped taking the legal mind altering drug, and in the height of withdrawal, jumped in front of the Toronto subway..

Many people have the belief that her sad story was a woman who did such a heinous unbelievable thing, did it without the possibiloity of legal chemicals...

The coincidence in her story like so many others, is that she didnt commit such a heinus unbellievable act prior to her "getting help"..

She sought help and it was with the "help" (chemicals) that this act was committed. Who is to say she would have ever done such a thing if she had never taken the pill in the first place...

On account that she her solution was well thought out in order to seek out help (and not jump in front of a subway) before getting help, it seems more plausible to me that what she was experiencing was the all too often (hidden and under estimated side effect) of suicidal homicidal ideation carried out by the other underestimated side effect - loss of reality....

Many people believe that these murder suicides have/are happening while people have "untreated" mental illness... which would help the belief that mental illness can causes the same thing.... Sadly, I cant find any cases (similar in nature ) where prescription antidepressants or antipsychotics werent in the mix...

 

[no more drugs]

I just found out (in Ontario) that toxicolgy reports are not mandatory in all suicides and murder suicides. I was advised that if the coroners office is able to establish the cause of death e.g. hangiing, gunshot etc, they dont often do a toxicology screen. The family could request one but it isnt guaranteed that it would be completed. It is up to the coroners office...

Why is this so alarming?

I found this really alarming because there are many people who would/could take these drugs and dont tell other people.
The family (and those left behind) could become victims of someone who had an adverse reaction ( suicidal and or homicidal ideation) while taking or withdrawing from a mind altering drug and not even know it..

In the meantime society will continue to believe that these adverse reactions are very rare, because the medical profession is potentially throwing away oppurtunities where the connection will be missed..

 

[Tonington]

If society was seeing all these types of crimes were being done by people on legal, pharmaceuticals (antidepressanst and antipsychotics) would something have to improve somewehreÉ I would personally hope so.. at last thats the way I see it..

The first logical question is, what relationship, if any, exists between psychotropic drugs and these types of crimes? I'll post a link to some research below which seems to be what you are looking for, which actually reviewed the tox reports from the Chief Medical Officer of New York city:
PsychiatryOnline | American Journal of Psychiatry | Role of Antidepressants in Murder and Suicide

Eight years of data from one of the largest cities in North America, and no relationship between prescription drug use and violent crimes such as those which prompted this very thread. Let me re-phrase that, no indication that drug use increases the rate of these crimes.

In fact, the prevalence of psychotropic prescription drug use is much higher than 2.4%, the percentage of violent murder-suicides where the murderer was taking these types of drugs. That itself is not only not evidence of a causal relationship between drug use and this sort of crime, it is in fact evidence that these drugs are depressing the rate of these crimes. CDC figures put the use of anti-depressants alone at 11% in the US, in people aged 11 and older. If there was no relationship at all, we should expect to see a similar figure in the crime data. The fact that it's much lower?

Well, consider yourself educated.

 

[no more drugs]

M latest point (on how there is no data being collected (or looked for) in many murder suicides..

To reiterate what I see as a huge problem, is hidden information where one may be able to draw conclusions, but no information is being collected (in this case... tox reports not even requested by coroners as per my above post)

We all know that simple stats work either for us or against s.. it is however they are portrayed to support the cause at hand..

The truth is there is very little data collected and what is colected is private where no one is privy too the info..

There have been very few studies on antidepressants and antipsychotics..and many say their study showed that they dont work....

The problem is studies cant be done to determine a real vs placebo affect on homicide and suicide..

I will admit that apparently this adverse side effect doesnt happen to everyone or at least not at the same time/duration of taking/changing or increasing a dose..

Deprssion has no set symptom of suicide...

There are studies that say most people who are are depressed, or have experienced depression, have never experienced suicidal thoughts while being depressed...

To also reiterate the drug monographs on antidepressants and antipsychotics state that it was found in studies that these drugs can bring on suicide and homicide ideation. (They do state it is rare) ....

On account that it is stated by the manufacturer that it CAN happen, why does the medical profession down play it and tell us how rare it is..?

How do we know how rare it is when we arent getting the information in horrific events as to whther or not the perp was taking or withdrawing from this type of medication, and whether or not they had ever reported suicidal or homicidal thoughts prior to their use?

It is scientific information that says loss or reality and delusion are also adverse effects.. How would a person suffering from loss of reality, know that they are not in their right mind..

I is stated it can happen, so I dont understand how we are supposed to ever know just how often it is happening when the reports and information are either hidden and not tracked and not collected.......

It is only logical to assume it still occurs (on account that the manufacturer said it did)

In recent murder suicides

Alison Easton Corchis, Ottawa,
Peter Thomasing Ottawa,
Peter Lefebvre,
Derek Jensen Lethbridge Alberta,
David Allen Georgetown On
Darren Wourms Wahlberg Sk
Alec Lamb Hope BC
Siyavash Pourchamani Winnipeg
Julien Nonato Winnipeg
Mathura Chaitram Winnipeg
Luke Chaisson Degrau NF
Andrea Damude Petawawa On
Ed Amler Windsor On
Amiben Prajapati Calgary
Wojeciech Kosalka Milton On
Yu Mei Lai Calgary
Jocelyn Marcoux

to name same of the recent ones in the last year or so...

Understandly, the families are crushed by the tradgedy. Understandly the general public looks at these monstrous events where the perp and family are hated when it is possible that the monster was created by adverse reactions..

Understandly the family has no strength or will to draw any attention on the case, and they cant speak out and many likely dont even know of monstrous adverse reactions that are listed in the drug monograph (that pharmacists do not offer the receipient) and the doctors dont come out and give us any details on their now dead patient..many dont even necessarily know that their relative was taking an antidepressant or antipsychotic..

It seems plausible that some of these tragic events were induced by meds and an adverse report will never be completed so to potentially change the current mind set of this being so rare is crazy...

 

[Tonington]

It seems plausible that some of these tragic events were induced by meds and an adverse report will never be completed so to potentially change the current mind set of this being so rare is crazy...

Suspected adverse events are not filed because something is plausible. How do you square the above toxicology based findings with what you are saying now, and what you were asking for in your OP? There is a very real discordance here.