Mosque near Ground Zero

[gerryh]

Just came across this:

Here's an idea, if Rauf is so interested in trying to "push back against the voices of extremism", why doesn't he open his mosque/community center in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan? Those are the places where this alleged hijacking of Islam is taking place. Go there and show the people running the Islamic purity police or the madrassas the error of their ways. Help to bring them into the 21st century world where people are supposed to respect one another and coexist.
The very fact that there were not riots and wanton killing of Muslims after 9/11 or any of the other Islamic attacks here shows we Americans pretty much have this tolerance thing covered. If Rauf is so damn worried about the future go where the next set of killers are and put them on the right path.

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/301562.php

yup....nothing like a useless bigot quoting another useless bigot.

 

[Just the Facts]

I'm sure there was some vandalism and I do recall a story of some dough head who attacked a Sikh, but all in all there was no real "backlash" of significance considering the scale of 9/11.

The blogger makes a good point though, you're quick to point out how objecting to the mosque may be offensive to Muslims, but the blogger is the first I've seen to raise the very legitmate point that it may be offensive to Americans for Imam Rauf to suggest that Americans need to be schooled on the subject of tolerance and religious dialogue. You can say what you will but America is still one of, if not THE, most tolerant societies in the world.

 

[Machjo]

From the link I'd just posted above:

AFTERMATH OF THE 9-11 TERRORIST ATTACK

ATTACKS ON MUSLIMS



Sponsored link.





Quotations:

" '...the FBI has found little evidence so far that the teams of hijackers
received much support here [in the U.S.],' sources said." 9
" 'There seems to be no U.S. mastermind,' one official said." 9
"These shameful acts against men, women and children targeted because of their religious beliefs, ethnicity or national origin violate basic principles of human rights and justice. Misguided violence at the hands of a few dishonors the nation's legitimate anger and shock over the immense loss of life and destruction from the September 11 attacks in the United States. Since Sept. 11, monitoring groups around the country have received several hundred complaints alleging crimes apparently motivated by bias and hate." Human Rights Watch, news release, 2001-SEP-24
"...those who feel like they can intimidate our fellow citizens to take out their anger don't represent the best of America, they represent the worst of humankind, and they should be ashamed of that kind of behavior." George W. Bush, during a visit to the Islamic Center in Washington DC on 2001-SEP-17


Looking back to the Oklahoma City bombing, 1995-APR-19:

Many people believe in the concept of collective responsibility: that all persons of a particular group -- whether they be of a particular gender, age, nationality, religion, sexual orientation etc. -- are responsible for any evil deed perpetrated by one individual in the group. Thus when incorrect rumors circulated that Muslims had bombed the Murrah Federal Building in downtown Oklahoma City, OK, some people searched for Muslims that they could assault, or for mosques that they could attack. Any Muslim or any mosque was acceptable to satisfy their rage.

Shortly after the bombing, TV and radio newscasters speculated that the terrorist act had the markings of a Middle Eastern perpetrator:

Washington-based journalist Steven Emerson allegedly said on a national news program that the bombing "...was done with the intent of inflicting as many casualties as possible. That is a Middle Eastern trait."

Did he ever apologize to Middle-Easterners for this comment? I don't know, but it is a valid question.

One day after the bombing, Bob Grant of the Bob Grant Show responded to a caller who suggested that there was no evidence that the terrorists were Muslim. Grant allegedly commented "...in the Oklahoma case...the indications are that those people who did it were some Muslim terrorists. But a skunk like you. ...What I'd like to do is put you up against the wall with the rest of them, and mow you down along with them. Execute you with them. Because you obviously have a great hatred for America, otherwise you wouldn't talk the way you talk, you imbecile."

Did he ever apologize to the caller for expressing his desire to kill him along with Muslims for a bombing that had zilch to do with them?

In their coverage of the bombing, the New York Times commented: "Some Middle Eastern groups have held meetings there (Oklahoma), and the city is home to at least three mosques." Mere presence of a conference or mosque in the city was deemed to be suggestive of an involvement in a mass murder.

Did the New York times ever apologize for these comments?

Even after McVeigh was arrested and the government identified two white males as perpetrators, CNN correspondent Wolf Blitzer insisted that "there is still a possibility that there could have been some sort of connection to Middle East terrorism. One law enforcement source tells me that there's a possibility that they (the Caucasian suspects) may have been contracted out as freelancers to go out and rent this truck that was used in the bombing."

Any apologies from CNN?

Just read the link, and you'll see how the violence was even more intense after 911. Muslims are the biggest victims of acts of terrorism EVEN when they're not perpetrated by Muslims, amazingly enough.

Were there ever attacks on Caucasians over the bombings after McVeigh was arrested? McVeigh was a member of the Republican Party and raised Catholic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh#Political_and_religious_views). Were either the Republicans or Catholics blamed for the bombing? So why Muslims?

 

[Just the Facts]

yup....nothing like a useless bigot quoting another useless bigot.

lol don't knock yourself out with these well thought out profound contribtions. :lol:

 

[Machjo]

yup....nothing like a useless bigot quoting another useless bigot.

And not even factual, as the following link proved.

 

[Just the Facts]

oooo, comments and phone threats. Nasty nasty Americans. I'm surprised there is still a Muslim in America alive after that wicked wicked backlash.

 

[gerryh]

lol don't knock yourself out with these well thought out profound contribtions. :lol:

You expect me to "contribute" when commenting to a bigot? Don't hold your breath, cause it ain't gonna happen. You have exposed yourself time and time again in this thread alone that you deal in fairey tales to support your bigotry.

And not even factual, as the following link proved.

 

[Machjo]

I'm sure there was some vandalism and I do recall a story of some dough head who attacked a Sikh, but all in all there was no real "backlash" of significance considering the scale of 9/11.

Hmmm... let's see. I'll try to keep it short, but no promises, OK:

What involvement did Muslims and their organizations have in the Oklahoma City bombing? Lots:

"...within hours of the explosion, dozens of Muslim organizations around the country issued statements condemning the bombing in the strongest terms possible." 2
The Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development, a nation-wide Muslim group, held a blood drive, and donated $7,500 to disaster relief organizations.
Fifty Holy Land Foundation volunteers flew to Oklahoma City to assist local charities.
Muslims met with the governor and presented him with checks totaling $21,000 for the Victims Relief Fund.
There was minimal coverage in the media of these positive acts.

And in spite of this:

Within 36 hours of the bombing, attacks began on persons and mosques which were totally unrelated to the attacks:

Six bullets shattered windows of a mosque in Irving, TX. $3,000 in damage was caused.
A bag filled with blood and labeled 'Pig's blood' was thrown at the door of a mosque in San Francisco, CA.
Four bricks were thrown through the windows of a Muslim bookstore in Alexandria, VA. Also in Virginia, two mosques reported vandalism.
In Canada, the front doors at mosques in St. Catherines, ON and Montreal, PQ were fire-bombed, with minimal damage.
The British Broadcasting Commission (BBC) reported that there had been many death threats and assaults against Muslims.

Continuing harassment and attacks:

By 2001-SEP-25, three weeks after the attack, there have been many assaults on Muslims in the U.S. In addition, Sikhs are being targeted because some are being mistaken for Muslims. Hispanic-Americans have been harassed, presumably because of their skin color. One Egyptian Copt was murdered. Even members of the Baha'i Faith have been harassed. It is ironic that Baha'is are themselves viciously persecuted in Iran, and Copts are oppressed in Egypt.

Some examples are:

On the afternoon of Saturday, 2001-SEP-15, a gunman killed the 49 year old owner of a gas station in Mesa, AZ. He was a Sikh. His family believes that he was killed because he "looked Middle Eastern." Additional shots were fired at a Lebanese clerk and at the home of an Afghan family.
On the evening of Saturday, 2001-SEP-15, a gunman killed a Pakistani Muslim store owner in Dallas, TX.
Adel Karas, 48, an Egyptian-American grocer was shot and killed near his International Market store in San Gabriel, CA. He was a Copt -- neither Muslim nor Arab. No money was taken. Police are investigating the murder as a possible hate crime.
A man drove his car through the front entrance of Parma Mosque in Cleveland OH.
Also on Saturday, a Christian of Egyptian origin was shot dead in California.
Near Chicago, IL, there was a march in which about 300 anti-Arab youths waved flags, shouted "USA, USA," and attempted to march on a mosque in Bridgeview, IL -- a suburb southwest of Chicago. Colin Zaremba, 19, said: "I'm proud to be American and I hate Arabs and I always have." Three demonstrators were arrested.
In Chicago, a Molotov cocktail was thrown t an Arab-American community center. There were no injuries and little damage.
In Huntington, NY, Adam Lang, reportedly a drunken driver, 75, allegedly tried to kill a Pakistani woman with his car. He later followed the woman into a store and threatened to kill her for "destroying my country."
In Gary, IN, a man wearing a mask pumped over 20 bullets from a high-powered assault rifle at a Muslim, Hassan Awdah. He survived. Hassan is a U.S. citizen, born in Yemen.
In Lynnwood, WA, a mosque was vandalized.
In Suffolk County, NY, a man allegedly made anti-Arab threats and pointed a handgun at the employee of a gas station. He was arrested.
In a prison in Washington state, two inmates fought over an anti-Muslim slur.
a gasoline bomb was thrown into the home of a Sikh family in California.
Two mosques were firebombed with Molotov cocktails during the weekend of OCT-20-21. They are located in Burlington and Mississauga, near Toronto ON Canada. Kendrich House, 35, from Oakville ON has allegedly been charged.
Muslims elsewhere in the English speaking world were also targeted:

A 15 year old boy in Ottawa, Canada was attacked by a gang and badly injured.
The Samaj Hindu temple in Hamilton, ON, Canada was firebombed by an arsonist, causing $600,000 in damages. Police speculate that the perpetrator mistook the temple for a mosque.
Firebomb attacks on Canadian mosques causing minimal damage have occurred in Montreal, Quebec, St. Catherines, ON and Oshawa, ON.
In Australia, a school bus containing Muslim children was stoned.
Vandals tried set fire to a Lebanese Christian church, also in Australia.
Five days after the attack, the number of anti-Muslim incidents reported to the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) reached 210. 8 By SEP-20, 9 days after the attack, Nihad Awad, executive director of the CAIR said: "...The bigoted acts of a small minority are creating an atmosphere of apprehension and fear." Their total of documented first-hand reports of intolerant acts reached 500. The more serious incidences are being investigated by the police as hate crimes.

Countless angry looks, obscene gestures, hate messages in Internet chat rooms and elsewhere on the Internet, bomb and other threats via telephone have targeted Muslim and Arab-Americans.

We will update this essay as more information becomes available.

My God, even the Baha'is were punished for what these terrorists had done. How ironic, seeing that Baha'i' lives are even threatened in Iran, and the people blaming the Muslims for these acts then persecute a group persecuted in a country that is predominantly Muslim (notice I'm still not blaming Muslims for the acts of the Iranian government.).

The blogger makes a good point though, you're quick to point out how objecting to the mosque may be offensive to Muslims, but the blogger is the first I've seen to raise the very legitmate point that it may be offensive to Americans for Imam Rauf to suggest that Americans need to be schooled on the subject of tolerance and religious dialogue. You can say what you will but America is still one of, if not THE, most tolerant societies in the world.

Muslim Americans are not necessarily Middle-Eastern, or even of Middle-Eastern origin. They have f**k all to do with the Middle East. From their life experience if they were raised in the US, they themselves will likely have experienced much bigotry targeted towards them from their fellow Americans, and in some cases from their own family members if they are converts. So, they are isolated not only from the larger US community, but sometimes even from their own families, owing to this bigotry. And your response is that they have no right to stand up in the face of such bigotry because people are more bigoted elsewhere? So a person ought to take pride in being a lesser bigot?

 

[Machjo]

And as you can see from teh incidentsquoted above, not only did Muslims suffer from 911, but even anyone with a Mediterranean complexion. Many were killed, murdered, presumably by 'patriotic' Americans. So why should Muslims who'd lost members to 911 and then all over the English-speaking world, including Canada, as a vicious response to 911, be apologetic about building a Muslim community centre near ground zero. They have been its greatest victims by far.

 

[Machjo]

Facts hurt, don't they.

 

[Machjo]

Then again, maybe Just The Facts is right. Maybe they should build the mosque farther away from Ground Zero just to reduce the chances of attacks as had occurred in the days and weeks after 9/11.

I hadn't quite though about it that way until now. But now that I think about it, JTF, YJ and others would have a better understanding of the likelihood of such attacks than we do.

 

[Machjo]

 

[Machjo]

And just to show not all Muslims are Middle-Eastern or even born Muslims, and come i every shape and colour:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB5QBzquBrU&feature=fvw

 

[Machjo]

You find the same for other religions. To take the Bahai Faith as an example:

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/fam_bahai.html

Islam, like any other religion is diverse, and Muslims have no need to feel guilty about the actions of others. A basic democratic principle for some, more complicated to understand for others.

 

[Just the Facts]

lol so you throw in a list of crimes, with no source, which may or may not have has anything to do with 9/11, the vast majority of them obviously in fact had nothing to do with 9/11, then to make it look better you throw in incidents from outside America because you list was too short...but I have a problem with facts. lol you guys are precious.

 

[Just the Facts]

You find the same for other religions. To take the Bahai Faith as an example:

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/fam_bahai.html

Islam, like any other religion is diverse, and Muslims have no need to feel guilty about the actions of others. A basic democratic principle for some, more complicated to understand for others.

But of course ALL AMERICANS are guilty and should offer retribution for a handful of wacko's who can't tell a Muslim from a Copt. lol. More precious every post.

 

[Machjo]

But of course ALL AMERICANS are guilty and should offer retribution for a handful of wacko's who can't tell a Muslim from a Copt. lol. More precious every post.

Bingo. Now you understand. Just as we cannot blame all Americans for the attacks on Muslims and others following 911, we likewise cannot blame all Muslims for the attacks on 911.

 

[Machjo]

the vast majority of them obviously in fact had nothing to do with 9/11,

So are you saying that in fact these acts of terrorism against Muslims was normal fare even before 911?

As we've seen from the reaction to McVeigh's attack, it's true to a degree. However, it's clear that the situation was not as intense as afterwards.

Then let me ask you:

Do you blame the Muslims in New York for the attack on 911? Do you think they ought to feel guilty about what happened? If so, why? If not, then why do you think they ought to worry about people who blame them for such attacks?

 

[Machjo]

VOA is a US Federal agency. You'll trust it at least I hope:

 

[Just the Facts]

So are you saying that in fact these acts of terrorism against Muslims was normal fare even before 911?

Dude, seriously, stop being so obtuse, it's really getting boring. What I'm saying is what I wrote. Stop making **** up and adding "so are you saying" to it. You wanna know what I'm saying, read what I said. It's really quite elementary, I'm not trying to explain quantum physics here.

As we've seen from the reaction to McVeigh's attack, it's true to a degree. However, it's clear that the situation was not as intense as afterwards.

McVeigh is dead. Where's Bin Laden?

Do you blame the Muslims in New York for the attack on 911? Do you think they ought to feel guilty about what happened? If so, why? If not, then why do you think they ought to worry about people who blame them for such attacks?

More obtuse stupidity.

Here's some real facts for you:

Table 1 - Hate Crime Statistics, 2006

and here it is conveniently graphed and charted:
Michelle Malkin Worth a thousand words