More than politics, this is a national crisis

[Dexter Sinister]

Well, there's some truth in that blue (silk is nice; naked is better), but you need to see the larger picture, and you need to read some of Noam Chomsky's analyses. Real power in Canada and USAnia is not in the political sphere anymore, it's in the private economy, and any political party that wants to pretend to run things has to kiss a lot of corporate butts or there will be a flight of capital to places business perceives to be more "business-friendly," which really means, places where business can control the political and economic agenda. An NDP government in Ottawa would be an unmitigated disaster, not because of NDP policy, but because the private corporate sector would immediately understand it's going to be held to account for its behaviour, and it would run away, taking its money and jobs with it. And it can get away with that because there are plenty of offshore places where it can pay slave wages and exploit the poor and be welcomed by governments.

Not even offshore: do some research on how Wal-Mart and The Gap operate in Mexico.

 

[bluealberta]

Well, there's some truth in that blue (silk is nice; naked is better), but you need to see the larger picture, and you need to read some of Noam Chomsky's analyses. Real power in Canada and USAnia is not in the political sphere anymore, it's in the private economy, and any political party that wants to pretend to run things has to kiss a lot of corporate butts or there will be a flight of capital to places business perceives to be more "business-friendly," which really means, places where business can control the political and economic agenda. An NDP government in Ottawa would be an unmitigated disaster, not because of NDP policy, but because the private corporate sector would immediately understand it's going to be held to account for its behaviour, and it would run away, taking its money and jobs with it. And it can get away with that because there are plenty of offshore places where it can pay slave wages and exploit the poor and be welcomed by governments.

Not even offshore: do some research on how Wal-Mart and The Gap operate in Mexico.

Hey, I said I was not an apologist for corporations, they can defend themselves very well. You are right about the NDP government in power, though, and I think it is due to political reasons, given that there would probably be massive tax hikes to corporations, cancellation of other concessions, which would drive them out of Canada to other more tax friendly places. I do not agree with everything they do, but I am also appreciative of the good they do.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: More than politics, t

none of that is in the NDP platform, Blue. They have no record of doing anything like that in Manitoba or Saskatchewan, nor do they have a record of threatening corporate tax hikes.

Whether corporations would try to flee is also questionable. Canada is a market of over 30 million people. We are affluent and well-educated. We have a consumerist culture. Would they flee if doing so meant they would lose access to this market?

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: More than politics, t

none of that is in the NDP platform, Blue. They have no record of doing anything like that in Manitoba or Saskatchewan, nor do they have a record of threatening corporate tax hikes.

Whether corporations would try to flee is also questionable. Canada is a market of over 30 million people. We are affluent and well-educated. We have a consumerist culture. Would they flee if doing so meant they would lose access to this market?

Oh come on now, Rev, the NDP has been nothing if not consistent about increasing taxes on corporations over the years. I will at least give them credit for honesty in that regard. It is also the reason they will never be elected federally. Nobody said they would lose market if they left for a better tax regime, they would simply provide it from a different place. For instance, and this is purely hypothetical, say a corporation in Toronto had prepared their business plans based on a tax rate of say 10%. All of a sudden a socialist miracle happens and the NDP get elected federally, and a real miracle occurs, it is a majority. They, being the corporate friendly types they are, decide that this corporation has got off lightly over the years, and decides to raise taxes to 25%. Of course the corporation doesn't like this, looks at options, and lo and behold, Buffalo of all places will provide all sorts of tax incentives for this corporation to come to their burg, and the tax rate there is only 8%. Golly gee, Aunt Polly, the head of the corporation realizes he can move just down the road, save a bundle on taxes, and still supply the product to the GTA because they love his product. Badda Bing, Badda Boom (must have been around the liberanos too much), corporation moves to Buffalo, and all the Canadian workers are out of work, but hey, not to worry, Smilin Jack has an employment insurance plan that will tide you over until something else comes along. Of course, the only problem is, Smilin Jack has hit all the other corporations with the same tax increases, and presto! all those corps are moving to, so now there is a whole bunch of people out of work with no place to go. Suddenly, Smilin Jack, the hero of all working people everywhere, has shown what his hidden agenda will actually do, and his support vanishes, just like the corporations he has chased off. Unfortunately, once he is replaced at the next election, those corps don't come back and of course, Smilin Jack blames the new government, of whatever stripe it is, for the fact the country is in the toilet. Then the NDP get rid of the only Prime Minister they will ever have, but he's okay, because he has that wonderful pension from the rest of us grateful sheep..,..err., Canadians. :wink:

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: More than politics, t

Did you have to take lessons to learn to talk out of your ass, Blue?

The NDP platform contains nothing about raising corporate taxes. It simply wouldn't cut them. It would cut taxes for working Canadians and small and medium-sized business though. That amounts to shifting the tax base slowly back onto corporations and the wealthy. Since the Conservatives and Liberals have shifted the tax burden ever more onto working Canadians, it's about time such an adjustment took place.

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: More than politics, t

Did you have to take lessons to learn to talk out of your ass, Blue?

The NDP platform contains nothing about raising corporate taxes. It simply wouldn't cut them. It would cut taxes for working Canadians and small and medium-sized business though. That amounts to shifting the tax base slowly back onto corporations and the wealthy. Since the Conservatives and Liberals have shifted the tax burden ever more onto working Canadians, it's about time such an adjustment took place.

Actually, I learned about ass talking from reading your stuff, good Reverend. Lighten up, it was a bit of humor. And since you have already made it clear on other posts that the middle class is rich, I can't imagine why I as a middle class wage earner would want more taxes than I already have. And please, the conservatives only were in power eight years, so it's a bit hypocritical to blame the conservatives, especially when Smilin Jack just weaseled another $4.6 billion out of Martin. If we actually had some fiscally responsible social programs, maybe our taxes would not be so high. But please, don't put any more taxes on me and the rest of the rich middle class, we are pretty much taxed out now.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: More than politics, t

Keep up the spin, Blue. Are you going to support Belinda in the post-election leadership race?

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: More than politics, t

Keep up the spin, Blue. Are you going to support Belinda in the post-election leadership race?

Actually, no, as I think I will have a chance to support whoever is the leader of the party in Alberta that will lead us out of this failed experiment known as Canada. Belinda is no doubt a liberal, and I really don't know why she is in the conservative party.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: More than politics, t

Ah...the truth comes out. The Harperites are really just Alberta separatists. Do ya think the US will treat you any better, Blue? Better ask the folks in Montana and North Dakota how well they are treated by Washington.

 

[Scape]

Re: RE: More than politics, t

The Harperites are really just Alberta separatists.

Um, this is a suprise?

 

[Reverend Blair]

Um, this is a suprise?

Just doing my duty by pointing out the hidden agenda.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Just doing my duty by pointing out the hidden agenda.

Nicely done Rev... 8)

 

[Hard-Luck Henry]

Just doing my duty by pointing out the hidden agenda.

Nicely done Rev... 8)

:lol: And he made it look sooo easy :wink:

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: More than politics, t

It is pretty easy, Henry...they aren't very good at hiding it.

 

[bluealberta]

Just doing my duty by pointing out the hidden agenda.

Nicely done Rev... 8)

:lol: And he made it look sooo easy :wink:

Actually, nothing hidden at all. Just trying to help out all of you who hate Alberta and Albertans. Why do you show such hate? And where did I say anything about joining the US? If there is one province or one area that could go on it's own, it is this area. Given that Alberta alone contributes over $60,000,000,000.00 (yes, billion) to the Canadian economy, including $12 billion in transfer payments to the rest of the country, there is reason to be more optimistic about this option than staying in a country that has virtually no apprecation for it. It is very interesting to hear people who came out from the East several years ago with their preconceived notions of how Alberta is, and now, after realizing the benefits of being here, cannot ever fathom going back East. Face it, we have a much more adventurous outlook on life, always have, and always will. The status quo is something to be pitied, and the East loves the status quo. And rev, everything must be made easy for you to actually understand it. You still think there is some sort of hidden agenda, yet no one can even say what it is, not even Brison or Orchard, who, by your logic, should know what this agenda is. Was nice of the so-called health minister to do his drive by smear last weekend, too bad he couldn't stick around to actually discuss alternatives to health care.

As the title of this thread says, this is a national crisis. A liberal victory will virtually guarantee Quebec separatism reaching a boil, and Alberta separatism will be right there too. What makes you like a corrupt and incompetent government better than Alberta specifically, and western Canada in general? And rev, the National Post poll says that 61% of the Prairies support the conservatives, and last I checked, Manitoba was part of the Prairies. Actually, without the Maritimes and the GTA, the liberals don't have that much support. All Paully has to do is keep pissing off Bay Street, and even the GTA will come to their senses. The Maritimes, now that's another story altogether.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: More than politics, t

Are you going to back, with interest, all the money you received when you were a have-not province? Are you going to try to come crawling back when the boom goes bust or you run out of oil?

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: More than politics, t

Are you going to back, with interest, all the money you received when you were a have-not province? Are you going to try to come crawling back when the boom goes bust or you run out of oil?

Actually, we'll take one tenth of the existing debt, pay it off within a few years, and as for when the boom goes bust, without hostile national governments, that won't happen, and given that we have no existing provincial debt now, and instead of just handing over massive amounts of transfer payments to be wasted by Canada, we can actually put that money aside for when the oil does run out many years down the road, and start using that money to develop alternative energy methods. This is not the first time that question has come up, Rev. As far as interest, I think that paying the most per capita into the country for the last 20 years or so probably covers that. I know you won't, but hey, if you really hate Alberta that much, you should be happy to see us go. By the way, the tarsands have fuel for hundreds of years, so the oil won't run out real soon, at least not while you and I are around to worry about it.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Re: RE: More than politics, t

Are you going to back, with interest, all the money you received when you were a have-not province? Are you going to try to come crawling back when the boom goes bust or you run out of oil?

Actually, we'll take one tenth of the existing debt, pay it off within a few years, and as for when the boom goes bust, without hostile national governments, that won't happen, and given that we have no existing provincial debt now, and instead of just handing over massive amounts of transfer payments to be wasted by Canada, we can actually put that money aside for when the oil does run out many years down the road, and start using that money to develop alternative energy methods. This is not the first time that question has come up, Rev. As far as interest, I think that paying the most per capita into the country for the last 20 years or so probably covers that. I know you won't, but hey, if you really hate Alberta that much, you should be happy to see us go. By the way, the tarsands have fuel for hundreds of years, so the oil won't run out real soon, at least not while you and I are around to worry about it.

Ok, bye bye then...

 

[jimmoyer]

You Canadians are interesting.

Believe it or not, you, Canada, Europe and America are all hitting the same issue of what balance of socialism and capitalism an intelligent society should have.

I'm not a purist so I will always favor some balance between socialism and capitalism, both having their pros and cons.

In fact, Canada, Europe and the US are all discovering that when the economic pie is big, we all gorge and live fat and happy, and when the economic pie is smaller the hard choices and bitter debate rule the day over the hard choices.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: More than politics, t

Blue...you'd best check out the Deal Ralphie got you for oil. You should be getting waaaay more. Keep that in mind when you run out of money.

Jim...that depends on how the money is generated. If the economic pie is big because we are being unfair to others and leaving them only the crumbs, then we can expect to share problems like riots, crime, civil unrest, and terrorism.