More Ducks Tarred and Feathered?

[Tonington]

Dont tell me they are growing,we build our MFT drying cells right on the beaches of these ponds as the water recedes,something you couldnt do last year as they were all under water.

You should make note of the word I used "were" and the word I didn't use "are"...I didn't say they are growing. I said they were growing...and I honestly have no idea if that is true or not.

Some statistics would be nice, but it was only last year that the National Pollutant Release Inventory required oil sands producers, in a transparent manner, to release information on the NPRI listed pollutants released into the air and water, but as well as the concentration and quantity of those chemicals placed in containment areas like tailings ponds.

 

[ironsides]

What BP did was criminal, most of the time deep sea oil rigs work just as designed and we can live with small spills, happens, been happening for years. What the Syncrude has created is potentially the worst environmental disaster the world has ever know, dwarfing the BP spill. Nature will eventually clean up what is left from the BP spill, nothing can fix what would happen if the Syncrude dam ever gave way. (nothing man makes is 100% perfect) The second largest dam in the world is holding back sludge, now that is an accomplishment. If it can be, it should be cleaned up now. I am sure money can be made from that for quite a few years.

 

[Kakato]

You should make note of the word I used "were" and the word I didn't use "are"...I didn't say they are growing. I said they were growing...and I honestly have no idea if that is true or not.

Some statistics would be nice, but it was only last year that the National Pollutant Release Inventory required oil sands producers, in a transparent manner, to release information on the NPRI listed pollutants released into the air and water, but as well as the concentration and quantity of those chemicals placed in containment areas like tailings ponds.

When i leave i'll post some pictures for you but it's strict policy that you dont have a camera on site,they are shrinking.
The tailings going in the ponds are the EXACT same materials that came out of them minus the bitumen.
Same as any strip mine in the world,thats how a strip mine works.dig a hole,extract the ore,put the rest back in the hole.They dont exactly import all these harmfull chemicals to pump back in the ponds,read my last link,it explains it in more detail.

Dont make it sound complicated,it's not.

 

[Cliffy]

Heres a more updated version of how much water is used and how it compares to other industries.
Sustainable Water Use — Sustainability - Suncor Energy


This is why the ponds are shrinking every day,something some cant seem to grasp for some reason.




Dont tell me they are growing,we build our MFT drying cells right on the beaches of these ponds as the water recedes,something you couldnt do last year as they were all under water.

Nice piece of Suncor Public Relations. Have you got any independent and reliable studies that can back that up?

 

[Kakato]

What BP did was criminal, most of the time deep sea oil rigs work just as designed and we can live with small spills, happens, been happening for years. What the Syncrude has created is potentially the worst environmental disaster the world has ever know, dwarfing the BP spill. Nature will eventually clean up what is left from the BP spill, nothing can fix what would happen if the Syncrude dam ever gave way. (nothing man makes is 100% perfect) The second largest dam in the world is holding back sludge, now that is an accomplishment. If it can be, it should be cleaned up now. I am sure money can be made from that for quite a few years.

Dwarfing the BP spill? Your kidding right?
The BP disaster dwarfed the Exxon Valdez spill and the oilsands arent even in that leauge yet,not even close.
If a suncor dam gave away nothing would happen,the waters below the ground level now and will continue to drop,this gos for albian,kearl lake,cnrl,syncrude and all the others as they bring on the new TRO technology.

Do you get that part? the dykes arent needed anymore,the waters below them or will be in a year and if you know anything about earthen dams nothing short of a nuclear bomb would ever even make a dent in one of the dykes.

Nice piece of Suncor Public Relations. Have you got any independent and reliable studies that can back that up?

Your getting it from one of the guys that works there and has no love for big oil or their companies,it's pretty simple really and i'm sure you could find it yourself on google if you tried or even wanted to.I'm just posting facts in laymens terms so some will understand how these mines work,dont make it seem complicated,it's not.

They just moved 5 more huge dredges a half mile further out on 3 ponds,thats how fast the ponds are shrinking just this summer.

A half more mile of beach,a half mile less water on the beach,simple.

 

[ironsides]

A half more mile of beach,a half mile less water on the beach,simple.

What does Syncrude plan to do with the dried sludge that remains, will anything be able to live on the dry land in say 10 years or so?

 

[Kakato]

What does Syncrude plan to do with the dried sludge that remains, will anything be able to live on the dry land in say 10 years or so?

How about a month after it's filled in like suncors pond 1 that was planted this summer? Grass was growing within a week of planting and last year it was a hole in the ground.

Like I said,the pits that used to be ponds get filled in and covered with topsoil and replanted like any mine does when reclaiming.

And its not sludge,its the same clay particles and sand that came out of these pits/ponds,minus the bitumen.

 

[captain morgan]

But still the lakes continue to grow. Those dams will not last forever. I don't support getting oil from the oil sands using present technology, water is to precious to waste extracting oil.

So... The settling ponds will last even less time than the dams.

Extraction techniques for the conventional supply use lots of water as well. Take a look at the operations in and around Bakersfield in California. If you are this concerned, you will definitely want to shut-in all operation in that heavy field... Here's a golden opportunity to do what's right. Unlike the majority of the conventional oil projects, the water that is used by the oil sands operators is recycled over and over from the tailing ponds.

The destruction of the environment relative to the development of communities and urban sprawl represent a more vast destruction of the environment and on a basis that is more permanent relative to the oil sands.

You might want to learn about the reality of the oil sands operations prior to swallowing the eco-pap that results from the massive green-washing that is going on.

One alternative is using the oil we now have both on & off shore, South Eastern U.S. as well as California and Texas have massive reserves. Oilsands can wait, water is more important than oil. In the U.S. Colorado, North Dakota and even California do not have to support each others economy separately, we are one country with all 50 states supporting the one. Here the goverment (everyone) cleans up major environmental disasters or bury those to big to clean up forever. It is time to stop thinking about today and start thinking about tomorrow. The ducks (and other animals) are only the barometer of what is happening. Without fresh water we all die. Can't believe that I just said that because I do not consider myself a environmentalist, but facts are facts.

The USA relies on foreign oil to maintain and drive their economy. The only real areas that remain for development in the continental USA that are currently undeveloped and have sufficient volumes are located in highly sensitive lands, National Parks and offshore targets in Alaska.

Your State department has been changing their tune recently regarding "dirty oil" (whatever the hell dirty is). Regardless, in the last year, there has been a big push on building a pipeline to Canada's West coast to supply the Asian markets. Every time that the State department rattled their sabre, the project got fast tracked a little more.... You'll notice that the US feds have been conspicuously silent about "dirty oil" in the last while. The message here is that your federal government understands that they will be depending on oil sands oil to run their economy. The last thing that they want is to be forced to compete in a price war with China and India for access to the stable long-term supply.

The reality is this. If you don't want the consequences associated with oil/gas consumption: Stop using it.... support the development of alternatives and minimize your consumption until such time that your society can fully ween themselves off of oil.

That's a very tall order

Nice piece of Suncor Public Relations. Have you got any independent and reliable studies that can back that up?

Hey Cliffy,

I posted some links to pictures of the enviro destruction associated with hydro, nuclear and wind power... I'm a little curious, where is your outrage and condemnation of those terrible, horrible industries?

Am I right in believing that your scorn is reserved exclusively for the oil/gas industry?

Is the value of those dead animals killed by those alternative energy generation techniques considered less than the ducks that died on the ponds?

 

[Cannuck]

Kakato is naive if he thinks that the pressure from "environuts" had nothing to do with the pressure which forced the government to get tougher on the companies it is supposed to be regulating and holding to the agreements.

Yes and no. Like the women's movement and the civil rights movement before, the environmental movement had an effect initially. The Maude Barlows, Al Sharptons and David Suzukis of the world have become nothing more than media *****s and, for the most part, are not taken too seriously by the powers that be. In this case science determines the direction of Alberta Environment policy, not the environmental movement.

I find it somewhat amusing that folks get their panties all twisted about the tailings ponds but nobody says boo about the tens of 1000's of municipal wastewater lagoons scattered throughout the country.

 

[ironsides]

The USA relies on foreign oil to maintain and drive their economy. The only real areas that remain for development in the continental USA that are currently undeveloped and have sufficient volumes are located in highly sensitive lands, National Parks and offshore targets in Alaska.

Your State department has been changing their tune recently regarding "dirty oil" (whatever the hell dirty is). Regardless, in the last year, there has been a big push on building a pipeline to Canada's West coast to supply the Asian markets. Every time that the State department rattled their sabre, the project got fast tracked a little more.... You'll notice that the US feds have been conspicuously silent about "dirty oil" in the last while. The message here is that your federal government understands that they will be depending on oil sands oil to run their economy. The last thing that they want is to be forced to compete in a price war with China and India for access to the stable long-term supply.

The reality is this. If you don't want the consequences associated with oil/gas consumption: Stop using it.... support the development of alternatives and minimize your consumption until such time that your society can fully ween themselves off of oil.

That's a very tall order

It is a very tall order, I am not convinced that the U.S. is not holding back using our own oil in order to get all the foreign oil we can while prices stay relatively low world wide. (by the way I am not including Canadian oil). We have massive oil reserves in Texas and offshore, tapped but not being used at the moment. The problem with alternative energy is that it cannot be perfected with today's technology. Even if we had started research 20-30 years ago (which we did on a small scale). The only clean energy we can use in enough capacity is nuclear. Now if we can just get people off the "what if" way of thinking with it we would be breathing cleaner air now. Our nuclear plants are safe, even 3 Mile Island proves that our safety systems worked. We must make it easier to build nuclear power plants, still following the rules that are in existence, take politics out of it and we will have all the power we need. That will bridge the time needed to come up with sustainable cleaner new sources of power.

 

[Kakato]

Yes and no. Like the women's movement and the civil rights movement before, the environmental movement had an effect initially. The Maude Barlows, Al Sharptons and David Suzukis of the world have become nothing more than media *****s and, for the most part, are not taken too seriously by the powers that be. In this case science determines the direction of Alberta Environment policy, not the environmental movement.

I find it somewhat amusing that folks get their panties all twisted about the tailings ponds but nobody says boo about the tens of 1000's of municipal wastewater lagoons scattered throughout the country.

The same process to sink shi* is used to sink MFT in the tailings ponds.
Yet these lagoons are far more toxic then any tailings ponds will ever be.

science determines the direction of Alberta Environment policy, not the environmental movement.

Couldnt have said it better myself.

It is a very tall order, I am not convinced that the U.S. is not holding back using our own oil in order to get all the foreign oil we can while prices stay relatively low world wide. (by the way I am not including Canadian oil). We have massive oil reserves in Texas and offshore, tapped but not being used at the moment. The problem with alternative energy is that it cannot be perfected with today's technology. Even if we had started research 20-30 years ago (which we did on a small scale). The only clean energy we can use in enough capacity is nuclear. Now if we can just get people off the "what if" way of thinking with it we would be breathing cleaner air now. Our nuclear plants are safe, even 3 Mile Island proves that our safety systems worked. We must make it easier to build nuclear power plants, still following the rules that are in existence, take politics out of it and we will have all the power we need. That will bridge the time needed to come up with sustainable cleaner new sources of power.

Ahh yes,the shale oils in northern USA,Dont worry,we are directional drilling those right now,sluuuurp!
lol!

 

[Cliffy]

Hey Cliffy,

I posted some links to pictures of the enviro destruction associated with hydro, nuclear and wind power... I'm a little curious, where is your outrage and condemnation of those terrible, horrible industries?

Am I right in believing that your scorn is reserved exclusively for the oil/gas industry?

Is the value of those dead animals killed by those alternative energy generation techniques considered less than the ducks that died on the ponds?

We are talking about the tar sands. Talking about the others would be hijacking the thread. I have expressed my thoughts on "nucular" power in the appropriate threads. I am not nor have I ever been outraged, just extremely disappointed at the greed and stupidity of man. Anything that degrades our life support system is worthy of comment, but this thread has a particular focus, so I try to stick to that.

 

[Kakato]

The Newfys would never let you shut down the oilsands,their "living the dream" me b'ye.

To them that means having a job,something their own province cant provide them with.

 

[damngrumpy]

You do have to set up a process, and that is the rules you go by.
without doing that, the lawyers will have a field day holding up the
justice system If you establish a process the argument dries up.
We have to have all the players involved provincial governments
with a backbone, the Federal Government who has control over
the birds Municipal and Regional governments and people like you
and I giving input. Legislation that provides for the definition of the
offence, and the sentences that will be handed out to those who
ignore the issues. Once you have that in place something real
can in fact be done.
I advocate for automatic prison sentences for CEOs and or the
Members Of The Board, for violations of the law. We need the oil.
This is true, but we also need minerals from the earth and we have
rules and regulations when extracting it. We have farming and
again there are strong regulations and penalties for violations of the
law. The same must hold true when it comes to tailings ponds as
we, excuses are no longer good enough.

 

[Kakato]

Funny but i dont ever see any of the familys of the workers killed getting 3 million dollars,maybe folks should get their priorities straight.The court process for the ducks took longer then the investigation into the guy killed a couple years ago in the floating excavator on the ponds at cnrl.I live with the guy that found him dead.I'll have to look up the compensation on that one to see if the ducks were more important then a human life.

 

[Tonington]

Yes and no. Like the women's movement and the civil rights movement before, the environmental movement had an effect initially. The Maude Barlows, Al Sharptons and David Suzukis of the world have become nothing more than media *****s and, for the most part, are not taken too seriously by the powers that be.

It's not just folks like Suzuki. The environmental lobby is larger than that, Pembina, Environmental Defense, Greenpeace, Sierra Club, Alberta Environmental Initiative and then you also have non-environmentalist allies like conservation groups, Ducks Unlimited, Trout Unlimited, Boreal Initiative, Canadian Wildlife Federation, World Wildlife Fund Canada, etc.

They all put pressure on politicians, as well as business groups.

In this case science determines the direction of Alberta Environment policy, not the environmental movement.

Science, economics, and politics. The environmental movement is involved. NGO's perform scientific and economic studies too.

I find it somewhat amusing that folks get their panties all twisted about the tailings ponds but nobody says boo about the tens of 1000's of municipal wastewater lagoons scattered throughout the country.

Birds that land in a municipal wastewater lagoon can still take off. We have two of them at work, though by the time the water is in the wetlands, there are no pathogens or biohazardous waste left. Herons stop by, ducks stop by, there's frogs and even muskrats down there.

 

[Cannuck]

Birds that land in a municipal wastewater lagoon can still take off.

...5 seconds on google

Dozens of dead ducks found in sewer lagoon | KIDK CBS 3 - News, Weather and Sports - Idaho Falls - Pocatello - Blackfoot, ID - Idaho Falls, Pocatello, Blackfoot - Idaho | Local & Regional

 

[damngrumpy]

Municipalities and regional districts end up with the contaminated water
problems that get solved at the local level. We need to strengthen the
entire system. If the program is not working the legislation is meaningless
and new regulations are needed or they need the teeth required to force
all stakeholders to obey them

 

[captain morgan]

It is a very tall order, I am not convinced that the U.S. is not holding back using our own oil in order to get all the foreign oil we can while prices stay relatively low world wide. (by the way I am not including Canadian oil). We have massive oil reserves in Texas and offshore, tapped but not being used at the moment. The problem with alternative energy is that it cannot be perfected with today's technology. Even if we had started research 20-30 years ago (which we did on a small scale). The only clean energy we can use in enough capacity is nuclear. Now if we can just get people off the "what if" way of thinking with it we would be breathing cleaner air now. Our nuclear plants are safe, even 3 Mile Island proves that our safety systems worked. We must make it easier to build nuclear power plants, still following the rules that are in existence, take politics out of it and we will have all the power we need. That will bridge the time needed to come up with sustainable cleaner new sources of power.

You've hit the nail on the head regarding current technology as it applies to extracting more difficult geology. However, in your suggesting this difficulty, you've also identified a tremendous problem. Does the US allow the drilling of more complex offshore wells and/or exploration in the National parks?

The question of nuclear is an interesting as well. My belief is that there is a lot more negative hype associated with that technology than is deserved. Much like the oil sands, there is a huge amount of misinformation that has been disseminated and those that do so, do it in order to pursue an agenda.

For the foreseeable future, humanity will be relying on conventional sources and technologies. The message being that if you don't like it, you're SOL.

We are talking about the tar sands. Talking about the others would be hijacking the thread.

I thought that we were talking about the dead ducks and living in some form of harmony with nature... Certainly you'd be the first to demand that any form of causation of dead ducks would be worthy (no, check that - demand) virulent action on your part.

Here's the link to the eagle death associated with a wind turbine again:
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...P7InTpuEQpx1Q=

So, where is the action?

 

[Kakato]

It's not just folks like Suzuki. The environmental lobby is larger than that, Pembina, Environmental Defense, Greenpeace, Sierra Club, Alberta Environmental Initiative and then you also have non-environmentalist allies like conservation groups, Ducks Unlimited, Trout Unlimited, Boreal Initiative, Canadian Wildlife Federation, World Wildlife Fund Canada, etc.

They all put pressure on politicians, as well as business groups.

Science, economics, and politics. The environmental movement is involved. NGO's perform scientific and economic studies too.

Birds that land in a municipal wastewater lagoon can still take off. We have two of them at work, though by the time the water is in the wetlands, there are no pathogens or biohazardous waste left. Herons stop by, ducks stop by, there's frogs and even muskrats down there.

Your obviously not meaning sewage lagoons and if you are then your seriously ignorant about them. Anyone who does upgrading to these lagoons would say your nuts but they have to pay the fines if theres a release into a fresh water stream so what would they know?