Men's Rights?

[CFS]

1. Men's right to choose (to be a father or not - we are not just sperm donors)

I kinda agree with you there. There are a lot of guys that are fathers not by choice. (I mean there are some women that "do it because") But I don't think its all cases, Example your dating a women for 6 months, She's using the pill, and your no longer wearing a condom, and she goes off the pill without informing you, Gets pregant and demands you marry her. She decides what she's going to do about it. Not you.

Arguements could be made put the condom on ALL TIMES, bla bla bla And there's a lot of innocent mistakes that happen out there,

Its too bad men can't take a shot like a girl can that's good for 3 months at a time, Birth control for men kinda thing.

There is way more Birth control options for women then there is men to protect themselves against unwanted pregnancies, Is what I am getting at here, just incase I lost any of you in my yabbering.

 

[tamarin]

If we insisted parents had to have a licence to have a child that would sort out all this trouble. Society needs responsible parents. People who know what they're getting into and are prepared to do the job. Too many folk think parenting is a hobby. It ain't. It's time to send out a clear message on childrearing.

 

[Zzarchov]

1.) condoms are not 100% effective, in fact, they aren't even to a point where using condoms for prolonged periods of sex is reliable.

2.) If you can't make a case for the loss of a child, then your dancing around the issue, He only had a hand in the creation of the fetus. If the Fetus isn't half his despite it being 50% his genetic material, then it CANNOT become 50% his later, without him taking any further action.

How can you say "This fetus is in my body so its mine" then say "Now its out of my body, through no doing of yours, so im forcing 50% of something which is legally MINE to become 50% yours".

Its funny how "primitive societies" usually had the answer, in many island cultures they had the simple explanation, A father is not considered legally related to his children, its the mothers and the mothers family. Problem solved for them, when a woman wants a child SHE has one.

(I know our society is far different and evolved on different lines so that isn't a magic answer)

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: Men's Rights?

[. 85% of female genital mutilation involves only the removal of the clitoral hood, which is the equivalent to the male's foreskin.

That isn't true according to the WHO stats I've read. Sunna isn't infibulation, but it usually involves the whole clitoris being removed.

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: Men's Rights?

2.) If you can't make a case for the loss of a child, then your dancing around the issue, He only had a hand in the creation of the fetus. If the Fetus isn't half his despite it being 50% his genetic material, then it CANNOT become 50% his later, without him taking any further action.
)

The problem here is women's rights are being mixed with children's rights. A woman has the right to an abortion because she can't be forced to remain pregnant against her will. That's "women's rights".

Child support is the right of the child. Children have a right to support from both their parents. That isn't a "women's rights" issue because children are both male and female. It has nothing to do with parents owning their children. The right to child support happens when a person is born and endowed with rights. Up until the birth, there is no person and thus no rights to be protected. That's why a man's responsibility CAN and DOES change without him doing anything. It's the birth that changes things.

Why wouldn't men's rights activists want to ensure that all male children are supported by both parents? Or do men only matter when they are adults?

 

[fuzzylogix]

Re: RE: Men's Rights?

The only other part of your post I would disagree with is that men don't have the choice on whether to be fathers or not. Men make that decision when you stick your penis in a vagina. End of story as far as I'm concerned. Biology means that's the only time you get to choose.

Sorry Tracy, but that is not a choice. Sex is part of survival. It is like food and water, you need them to live. It takes two to have sex, so why does one person get 100% of the choice and the other person get 0% of the choice? Your logic is flawed.

Sex isn't needed for survival.

Speak for yourself.

 

[TenPenny]

1. Men's right to choose (to be a father or not - we are not just sperm donors)

I kinda agree with you there. There are a lot of guys that are fathers not by choice. (I mean there are some women that "do it because") But I don't think its all cases, Example your dating a women for 6 months, She's using the pill, and your no longer wearing a condom, and she goes off the pill without informing you, Gets pregant and demands you marry her. She decides what she's going to do about it. Not you.

Any time you put birth control decisions in the "hands" of the other party, you are taking your chances. If you don't want to be a parent, it is YOU who needs to use birth control, not the other party. The moment you abdicate responsibility, that is the moment you lose control. So to speak.

 

[hermanntrude]

onto a slightly lighter note... have u ever noticed those adverts for women's car insurance? imagine the outcry if there were a similar thing for men. admittedly there never will be cos men crash more. it's the principle of the thing though... imagine if there were a DIY stor just for men, based on the idea that women might hurt themselves with tools. Not true but more likely to be true than untrue maybe. Sexism, obviously. same with car insurace i reckon.

I believe that while women are prejudiced against far more than men, when men suffer there is much less they can do about it. most people wont even admit that men get an unfair deal on certain issues. it's very similar to positive discrimination in the racism context

 

[Zzarchov]

The problem with Car Insurance is the Blanket treatment. Not all men get in crashes, not all women don't. Can you imagine if they gave different rates to different races based on coincidental statistics?

As for trying to make this double-standard to men about child's rights above mens rights, should the woman lose access to the child since she obviously isn't very responsible and wouldn't be the best parent possible? She couldn't even avoid being impregnated by a man who had no interest in raising a child? I don't think its so fun to claim "are (wo)mens rights only valid when they are an adult, to children who are male/female not have rights?"

Forcing you to have a child is wrong, ok.. but so is concieving of one irresponsibley. Perhaps their should be a punishment if the man wishes the child and you don't, for emotional damage. Sex and Impregnation is not a trivial matter and their should be consequences for damaging someone mentally. If someone does something accidentally irresponsible and causes a miscarriage in a pregnant woman they are punished after all.

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: Men's Rights?

Sex isn't needed for survival.

Speak for yourself.

I'm not saying I live a celebate life or anything, just that a lack of sex will not in fact cause death :lol:

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: Men's Rights?

The problem with Car Insurance is the Blanket treatment. Not all men get in crashes, not all women don't. Can you imagine if they gave different rates to different races based on coincidental statistics?

As for trying to make this double-standard to men about child's rights above mens rights, should the woman lose access to the child since she obviously isn't very responsible and wouldn't be the best parent possible? She couldn't even avoid being impregnated by a man who had no interest in raising a child? I don't think its so fun to claim "are (wo)mens rights only valid when they are an adult, to children who are male/female not have rights?"

Forcing you to have a child is wrong, ok.. but so is concieving of one irresponsibley. Perhaps their should be a punishment if the man wishes the child and you don't, for emotional damage. Sex and Impregnation is not a trivial matter and their should be consequences for damaging someone mentally. If someone does something accidentally irresponsible and causes a miscarriage in a pregnant woman they are punished after all.

Car insurance is also discriminatory based on age down here. It's frustrating.

If an unexpected pregnancy were enough to take a child away from his/her parents, about half of the country's children would be in foster care. But I get your point and would like to add that women's rights ARE secondary to children's rights if they are unfit parents. I've seen social services take babies away from their mothers for things like drug use (at least 2 I remember off the top of my head were placed with their very loving fathers). The child has the right to a safe home that overrides the woman's or man's right to raise their biological offspring.

I don't think suing people for emotional damage for things that happen in a relationship is a good idea. The court system wasn't set up to substitute for Dr Phil. Emotional pain isn't always lawsuit worthy.

 

[Andrew]

Re: RE: Men's Rights?

The loss of their child

What about the loss of the child? What is relevant financially? So if she had a very poor diet and lost the child a guy should expect financial compensation? If this is a math exercise he should owe her because the child would've cost him well over 100k thru to high school grad.

No, just if she aborted the child he desired. 100K is a small price to pay for the lifetime of love you have with a child. But, everyone is different, and others may not agree.

 

[Andrew]

Re: RE: Men's Rights?

The loss of their child

What about the loss of the child? What is relevant financially? So if she had a very poor diet and lost the child a guy should expect financial compensation? If this is a math exercise he should owe her because the child would've cost him well over 100k thru to high school grad.

No, just if she aborted the child he desired. 100K is a small price to pay for the lifetime of love you have with a child. But, everyone is different, and others may not agree.

 

[Andrew]

Re: RE: Men's Rights?

Because our society and many societies around the world calculate losses in bucks. If a doctor kills your baby while delivering it, he pays you big bucks. If a bad driver hits your baby and kills it he pays you big bucks.

Doesnt bring baby back, but boy, you get big bucks.

Sucks.

Go ahead, make the claim in court. Prove the pain and suffering. Andrew (I believe it was him) said it's okay to use the morning after pill (encouraged it as part of a 3 point plan) but he wants compensation if you wait a couple weeks and have an abortion? Lets see how fast this gets laughed out of court.

I didn't say anything about a "morning after pill". And the compensation idea is only in the case that the man wants the baby, but the woman wants an abortion. Please get your facts straight.

 

[Andrew]

Re: RE: Men's Rights?

Because our society and many societies around the world calculate losses in bucks. If a doctor kills your baby while delivering it, he pays you big bucks. If a bad driver hits your baby and kills it he pays you big bucks.

Doesnt bring baby back, but boy, you get big bucks.

Sucks.

Go ahead, make the claim in court. Prove the pain and suffering. Andrew (I believe it was him) said it's okay to use the morning after pill (encouraged it as part of a 3 point plan) but he wants compensation if you wait a couple weeks and have an abortion? Lets see how fast this gets laughed out of court.

I didn't say anything about a "morning after pill". And the compensation idea is only in the case that the man wants the baby, but the woman wants an abortion. Please get your facts straight.

 

[Andrew]

Re: RE: Men's Rights?

The only other part of your post I would disagree with is that men don't have the choice on whether to be fathers or not. Men make that decision when you stick your penis in a vagina. End of story as far as I'm concerned. Biology means that's the only time you get to choose.

Sorry Tracy, but that is not a choice. Sex is part of survival. It is like food and water, you need them to live. It takes two to have sex, so why does one person get 100% of the choice and the other person get 0% of the choice? Your logic is flawed.

Sex isn't needed for survival.

Believe what you want, but it is necessary for emotional, mental, and physical health. Therfore, part of survival.

 

[Andrew]

Re: RE: Men's Rights?

[. 85% of female genital mutilation involves only the removal of the clitoral hood, which is the equivalent to the male's foreskin.

That isn't true according to the WHO stats I've read. Sunna isn't infibulation, but it usually involves the whole clitoris being removed.

I found my stats at WHO as well. Either way, both male and female genital mutilation is a torture, it is cruel, inhuman, and degrading. It is against Amnesty International and UN charters Article 3 - "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person."

Nobody should be forced to have their genitals mutilated. If, as an adult, they decide to perform this procedure, then it is their choice, but we need to protect the children (boys and girls) from barbaric acts such as this.

 

[Andrew]

Re: RE: Men's Rights?

[. 85% of female genital mutilation involves only the removal of the clitoral hood, which is the equivalent to the male's foreskin.

That isn't true according to the WHO stats I've read. Sunna isn't infibulation, but it usually involves the whole clitoris being removed.

I found my stats at WHO as well. Either way, both male and female genital mutilation is a torture, it is cruel, inhuman, and degrading. It is against Amnesty International and UN charters Article 3 - "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person."

Nobody should be forced to have their genitals mutilated. If, as an adult, they decide to perform this procedure, then it is their choice, but we need to protect the children (boys and girls) from barbaric acts such as this.

 

[Andrew]

Re: RE: Men's Rights?

[. 85% of female genital mutilation involves only the removal of the clitoral hood, which is the equivalent to the male's foreskin.

That isn't true according to the WHO stats I've read. Sunna isn't infibulation, but it usually involves the whole clitoris being removed.

I found my stats at WHO as well. Either way, both male and female genital mutilation is a torture, it is cruel, inhuman, and degrading. It is against Amnesty International and UN charters Article 3 - "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person."

Nobody should be forced to have their genitals mutilated. If, as an adult, they decide to perform this procedure, then it is their choice, but we need to protect the children (boys and girls) from barbaric acts such as this.

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: Men's Rights?

Sex isn't needed for survival.

Believe what you want, but it is necessary for emotional, mental, and physical health. Therfore, part of survival.

It isn't necessary for physical health. If it was, priests and nuns would drop dead. That's not just my personal belief.