Men's Rights?
- Thread starter Andrew
- Start date
Re: RE: Men's Rights?
Interesting ideas for sure. Children as a business partnership.... maybe it could work. I dunno... Someone will have to try it out to see I guess.
Zzarchov said:
Interesting ideas for sure. Children as a business partnership.... maybe it could work. I dunno... Someone will have to try it out to see I guess.
Andrew said:
Trust me, I don't think men are a bunch of animals. I work with parents and see great fathers all the time. I have a great father I love to death (and a bio-father I respect). My brother is a great father to my niece. They all made a conscious choice to live up to their responsibilities and even take on ones they didn't have to. That's what a good man does. Never will I downplay how important fathers are in their children's lives in the name of equal rights or choice. I just can't do it.
And just so you don't think I don't see the other side: I see a lot of terrible mothers out there too. I have 2 male friends whose exwives use their children as tools to punish them. I routinely work with women whose own behavior has caused their infants tremendous suffering, even death. A good parent is a good parent, it isn't about gender. I feel no differently about a woman who abandons a child than I do about a man who does it (they are out there too despite what our media shows).
Andrew said:
You'll find a lot of men's groups on-line. You may be able to contact them to be referred to ones in your area. Most I know of focus on fathers.
http://www.fact.on.ca/facthome/fact_not.htm
http://www.fathers-4-justice.ca/
This link has several Canadian groups on it, including BC Fathers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fathers'_rights#Canada
www.mesacanada.com
www.everyman.org
tracy said:
I was refering to the fathers (and mothers) who HAVE left their kids. They are not animals. They are doing their best in the situation that is in front of them. They may have been forced out of the child's life by the other parent making their life a living Hell, they may not have been given the tools by THEIR parents to be a good parent, things they have gone through in the past may have left them unable to physically, emotionally, or mentally care for a child. This is not something they have done to themselves, but something their environment has done to them. I don't believe there are bad people. People have been made the way they are due to events that have happened in their lives.
[People have been made the way they are due to events that have happened in their lives.[/quote]
I agree with that philosphy to a point, but to say it as though it is a "given" is wrong, errespective
of what has happened to people in the past, they also have their own "intestinal fortitude" which
should have some "strength" and they should develope their own sense of responsibility.
I had the kind of upbringing that could fall into that catagorie as well, but somewhere along the way
I decided that I had my own brain and strength to rise above all of that.
In some cases people just can't, but to use that excuse as a "crutch" is just adding to the existing
weakness, and living in self pity. Get over it.
Many many women who are pregnant could have same stories, and I'm sure many also use that as
a reason that they can't "cope". Get over it, and get help to do that.
The embryo is the woman's to decide for herself, along with her partner, just how to cope with the
pregnancy, if at the end of that, she feels she needs to abort, that is her decision. Noone can or should
be able to tell her what to do at that point, and the father to be should not think he has equal rights
at that point. Once the baby is alive and in the world, it then becomes a "equal" decision as to the
future of the child, as the mother then, is free of having the child inside her body.
Don't ever make light of the level of responsibility and stress a woman has knowing she has a embryo
growing inside of her body. Noone has the right to think they have equal say in her future, and also
it doesn't give the man the right to "cut and run", as, if she decides to give birth, then he has to be
the "father" of his and her child.
Doesn't anyone "get" it, do men really want to have sex, then when they find out they are going to
be a father, start whining about "unfairness", to bad you don't "think" first, so you don't have to
"whine" later.
I agree with that philosphy to a point, but to say it as though it is a "given" is wrong, errespective
of what has happened to people in the past, they also have their own "intestinal fortitude" which
should have some "strength" and they should develope their own sense of responsibility.
I had the kind of upbringing that could fall into that catagorie as well, but somewhere along the way
I decided that I had my own brain and strength to rise above all of that.
In some cases people just can't, but to use that excuse as a "crutch" is just adding to the existing
weakness, and living in self pity. Get over it.
Many many women who are pregnant could have same stories, and I'm sure many also use that as
a reason that they can't "cope". Get over it, and get help to do that.
The embryo is the woman's to decide for herself, along with her partner, just how to cope with the
pregnancy, if at the end of that, she feels she needs to abort, that is her decision. Noone can or should
be able to tell her what to do at that point, and the father to be should not think he has equal rights
at that point. Once the baby is alive and in the world, it then becomes a "equal" decision as to the
future of the child, as the mother then, is free of having the child inside her body.
Don't ever make light of the level of responsibility and stress a woman has knowing she has a embryo
growing inside of her body. Noone has the right to think they have equal say in her future, and also
it doesn't give the man the right to "cut and run", as, if she decides to give birth, then he has to be
the "father" of his and her child.
Doesn't anyone "get" it, do men really want to have sex, then when they find out they are going to
be a father, start whining about "unfairness", to bad you don't "think" first, so you don't have to
"whine" later.
Ug, thread necromancy... Raise Dead Thread..Raise to new heights to beat the dead horse some more.
Talloolla, we get it..Its totally fair that when two people have consensual sex, the woman can decide to never tell the father he has a child, and raise it potentially its whole life without ever telling either one, except if she chooses to suddenly demand compensation. Otherwise its totally fair to deny a father the right to help raise his own child and support it, and deny the child the right of having the father in his/her life and the support of the father based on the fact that the woman may not want to take responsibility for having sex and have the man as part of her and her childs life.
I disagree with that assessment. Its been hashed to death.
Talloolla, we get it..Its totally fair that when two people have consensual sex, the woman can decide to never tell the father he has a child, and raise it potentially its whole life without ever telling either one, except if she chooses to suddenly demand compensation. Otherwise its totally fair to deny a father the right to help raise his own child and support it, and deny the child the right of having the father in his/her life and the support of the father based on the fact that the woman may not want to take responsibility for having sex and have the man as part of her and her childs life.
I disagree with that assessment. Its been hashed to death.
'''''So do I, and don't how you arrived at that assumption from reading my post'''''.
'''''Sorry about raising old thread, was browsing through old headings, and responded without looking
at date, my fault.'''''
---Doesn't anyone "get" it, do men really want to have sex, then when they find out they are going to
be a father, start whining about "unfairness", to bad you don't "think" first, so you don't have to
"whine" later---
well that really sums it up doesn't it? Its whining about "unfairness" and any very real imbalances in the issue are simply men whining and they should shut it and deal with a situation that is blatantly abusive to men, and is abused in a regular manner in precisely the situation I describe.
be a father, start whining about "unfairness", to bad you don't "think" first, so you don't have to
"whine" later---
well that really sums it up doesn't it? Its whining about "unfairness" and any very real imbalances in the issue are simply men whining and they should shut it and deal with a situation that is blatantly abusive to men, and is abused in a regular manner in precisely the situation I describe.
[quote=Zzarchov;759103]---Doesn't anyone "get" it, do men really want to have sex, then when they find out they are going to
be a father, start whining about "unfairness", to bad you don't "think" first, so you don't have to
"whine" later---
well that really sums it up doesn't it? Its whining about "unfairness" and any very real imbalances in the issue are simply men whining and they should shut it and deal with a situation that is blatantly abusive to men, and is abused in a regular manner in precisely the situation I describe.[/quote]
you must remember my point is ONLY from conception to about 21/2 mos into pregnancy, and the whining I mention pretains to that short time period, not later on in pregnancy, it is at that
time that, "in my opinion" the woman has exclusive rights to make a decision, as to whether to
continue the pregnancy, this is "HER" time alone, (with the exception of conversation with father to be
that might make them both happy", if that doesn't happen, whatever she decides at that time is her
personal right. If the father to be doesn't want the child, and she agrees, then "no problem", but if
they have controversy, and are at loggerheads over the matter, she is the decision maker, as she is
left on her own to do that. The baby is in her body, and noone in the world can force, bully her, or
expect her to do "anything" they want, they can't interfere with her physical and mental situation "at
this time", they have made a "mistake", she is "stuck" with pregnancy, he is not, he actually has many
choices to make, cut & run, step up, harrass & bully her, go into depression, celebrate, but to expect
a woman to do as he tells her at this time, such as "abort", "adopt", is outragious.
If my personal choice, as soon as I found out I was pregnant, is to have abortion, I would do it
immediately, and I would inform father to be, if relationship deems it, as to what I have done,
and that would be it. Remember this pregnancy was not "planned", if the father to be is disapointed
that I had done that, that is unfortunate, but neither parent to be wanted it to happen in the first place.
If the pregnancy "continues on", then the father comes in to the picture very clearly, as his rights are
an equal part of the pregnancy, and birth, and the plans for babys future. If the mother doesn't
want the child, the father should have all rights to his child, if she wants the child, and they are
fighting over it, then the courts have to decide which parent is most suitable. Whatever the decision,
they both are responsible for the financial care, and upbringing of the child.
No father to be should expect the mother to be to "abort" or "adopt" , or "continue", because that is what he wants,then if she disagrees , he should be able to cut and run.
then if she disagrees, he should be able to "cut out" because she won't do as he says
I don't really think we disagree at all, but you don't seem to really pay attention to what I am saying.
If the pregnancy continues behond about 2/1/2 mos. then the father to be has "equal" rights in my
mind and the mother to be should not be able to make any decisions for the child without his input, and
they should both "decide", and the courts should come into picture, if necessary
be a father, start whining about "unfairness", to bad you don't "think" first, so you don't have to
"whine" later---
well that really sums it up doesn't it? Its whining about "unfairness" and any very real imbalances in the issue are simply men whining and they should shut it and deal with a situation that is blatantly abusive to men, and is abused in a regular manner in precisely the situation I describe.[/quote]
you must remember my point is ONLY from conception to about 21/2 mos into pregnancy, and the whining I mention pretains to that short time period, not later on in pregnancy, it is at that
time that, "in my opinion" the woman has exclusive rights to make a decision, as to whether to
continue the pregnancy, this is "HER" time alone, (with the exception of conversation with father to be
that might make them both happy", if that doesn't happen, whatever she decides at that time is her
personal right. If the father to be doesn't want the child, and she agrees, then "no problem", but if
they have controversy, and are at loggerheads over the matter, she is the decision maker, as she is
left on her own to do that. The baby is in her body, and noone in the world can force, bully her, or
expect her to do "anything" they want, they can't interfere with her physical and mental situation "at
this time", they have made a "mistake", she is "stuck" with pregnancy, he is not, he actually has many
choices to make, cut & run, step up, harrass & bully her, go into depression, celebrate, but to expect
a woman to do as he tells her at this time, such as "abort", "adopt", is outragious.
If my personal choice, as soon as I found out I was pregnant, is to have abortion, I would do it
immediately, and I would inform father to be, if relationship deems it, as to what I have done,
and that would be it. Remember this pregnancy was not "planned", if the father to be is disapointed
that I had done that, that is unfortunate, but neither parent to be wanted it to happen in the first place.
If the pregnancy "continues on", then the father comes in to the picture very clearly, as his rights are
an equal part of the pregnancy, and birth, and the plans for babys future. If the mother doesn't
want the child, the father should have all rights to his child, if she wants the child, and they are
fighting over it, then the courts have to decide which parent is most suitable. Whatever the decision,
they both are responsible for the financial care, and upbringing of the child.
No father to be should expect the mother to be to "abort" or "adopt" , or "continue", because that is what he wants,then if she disagrees , he should be able to cut and run.
then if she disagrees, he should be able to "cut out" because she won't do as he says
I don't really think we disagree at all, but you don't seem to really pay attention to what I am saying.
If the pregnancy continues behond about 2/1/2 mos. then the father to be has "equal" rights in my
mind and the mother to be should not be able to make any decisions for the child without his input, and
they should both "decide", and the courts should come into picture, if necessary
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