Men's Rights?

[Nikki]

Re: RE: Men's Rights?

Zzarch, until men carry the fetus/baby inside them there is no such thing as pregnancy equality. Take away her right to decide is basically slavery. Forced birth is equality? The guy will always have the deciding vote and he's not expected to do anything but watch. I couldn't disagree more.

Of course this is a situation where both parties understand each others position on being a parent (or not) (ie a one night stand is assumed neither wants a baby (unless she is just looking for a sperm donor)). I guess the choices should come down to:

1. They decide to keep the baby
2. They decide to abort the baby
3. They decide to give the baby away for adoption
4. She decides she wants the baby, he decides he doesn't, so she gets the baby and he has no further obligations.
5. she doesn't want an abortion, nor does she want the baby, but he does, so he gets the baby and she has no further obligations.
6. She wants an abortion, he wants the baby, she wins, he falls into a deep depression.

Can you think of any more?

The real issue is, you can't have 0% of the choice, yet still 100% of the accountability.

Unfortunantly, you dont have to go through the birthing process that is why it is ultimately upto the women. Sorry you don't like it but that is just the way it is and the way it should always be. But like I said before I agree with the opting out thing. But again I stress if you opt out you can't come back later in life unless you want to cough up alot of child support payments and get the permission of the other party. Ofcourse this is just my opinon.

 

[Nikki]

onto a slightly lighter note... have u ever noticed those adverts for women's car insurance? imagine the outcry if there were a similar thing for men. admittedly there never will be cos men crash more. it's the principle of the thing though... imagine if there were a DIY stor just for men, based on the idea that women might hurt themselves with tools. Not true but more likely to be true than untrue maybe. Sexism, obviously. same with car insurace i reckon.

I believe that while women are prejudiced against far more than men, when men suffer there is much less they can do about it. most people wont even admit that men get an unfair deal on certain issues. it's very similar to positive discrimination in the racism context

the insurance thing is interesting. Stats show that men crash more but this isn't the case if you look at stats more closely. Infact the stats show that men crash more then women because they don't take into account that men drive more then women. Once you take that into account its actually women that crash more.

 

[Nikki]

onto a slightly lighter note... have u ever noticed those adverts for women's car insurance? imagine the outcry if there were a similar thing for men. admittedly there never will be cos men crash more. it's the principle of the thing though... imagine if there were a DIY stor just for men, based on the idea that women might hurt themselves with tools. Not true but more likely to be true than untrue maybe. Sexism, obviously. same with car insurace i reckon.

I believe that while women are prejudiced against far more than men, when men suffer there is much less they can do about it. most people wont even admit that men get an unfair deal on certain issues. it's very similar to positive discrimination in the racism context

the insurance thing is interesting. Stats show that men crash more but this isn't the case if you look at stats more closely. Infact the stats show that men crash more then women because they don't take into account that men drive more then women. Once you take that into account its actually women that crash more.

 

[Nikki]

Re: RE: Men's Rights?

Sex isn't needed for survival.

Believe what you want, but it is necessary for emotional, mental, and physical health. Therfore, part of survival.

It isn't necessary for physical health. If it was, priests and nuns would drop dead. That's not just my personal belief.

and dont forget nuns

 

[Nikki]

Nobody should be forced to have an abortion, the same as nobody should be forced to be a parent. The sad part for the man is when he wants the baby and she does not. Her right will always prevail. But in the case where he does not want the baby and she does, then she should go into motherhood understanding that the child will not be supported by a father. That should be a man's right to choose.

that would be fine exsepct some women dont want to be pregnate and they do not want to experience birth and labour and that is why theirrights will prevail over yours.

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: Men's Rights?

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Why don't all women get their tubes tied, then nobody would have to worry about unwanted pregnancies. Doesn't sound so easy anymore, does it.

It does if they don't want children. Either that or use any of the other methods of birth control that are available to them. I've never had an unplanned pregnancy despite being sexually active.

 

[Kreskin]

Does anyone know the length of the male gestation period? This guy has been pregnant for about 5 years.

http://www.malepregnancy.com

 

[Andrew]

1. Men's right to choose (to be a father or not - we are not just sperm donors)
2. Father's rights (divorce and child custody)
3. Criminal laws not applied equally to both sexes
4. Misandry in the media
5. Genital mutilation (circumcision) - OK for males, illegal for females?!?
6. Lack of "men's studies" courses in university
7. Unequal access (men's only clubs (sports teams, scouts, etc) = bad, women's only clubs (just ladies fitness) = good?!?)
8. Push to encourage males to gain valuable higher level education is very limited, but the push to encourage females to continue their education is HUGE!!! Many more females than males in universities today.
9. Lack of studies on men's health
10. Domestic violence against males (physical, mental, and emotional abuse goes mostly unreported)

Although I do somewhat agree with you.
1)Men should have some say but unfortunantly that child is growing inside a women ultimately it is her decision. She is the one who has it growing inside of her for 9 mnths not you.
2) The reason why women mostly end up with children after a divorce is because they are the primary care givers not because anyone has anything against men. I know several men who have been awarded custody of their children because the mothers were found unfit.
3) Crimnal laws are you *censored* kidding me?
4) "mes studies" screw you. Like someone said earlyer mens studies is called "history"
5) the reason people push females to get an education is that it is harder for females and a good portion of females just raise children and don't work.
6) Domestic violence against males. It is't that noone is willing to help it is that males generally do not come forward.

1) Regardless...It is THIER child, so THEY should make the choice. You cannot make someone accountable for something when they have no choice. Could you imagine if your boss held you accountable for something you had no control over? THAT would be illegal in society's eyes, yet forcing someone to be a parent is not against the law?!? How screwed up is that!!!

2) Yes, the mothers had to found "unfit" for a father to get custody. Custody should be 50/50 no matter what. A child deserves BOTH parents, not just one. Society must change the way it looks at fathers...A father's contribution to his kids is not just financial. He goes to work to pay the bills which allows the mother to stay home and be the "primary" care giver. So, why should his contribution to the kids only be viewed as financial? Fathers make HUGE sacrifices for their kids, and it is undervalued and only regarded as "financial"....That is what needs to change.

3) Are you kidding me? If a woman kills her husband, what is the first thing that comes to mind? He must have been abusing her, right? Now turn that around, and you know he is viewed as the devil. There is a HUGE double standard when it comes to the law. In domestic violence calls to police, it does not matter if it is the mane or the woman who is being abused, the man is arrested and taken away. This happened to a friend of mine. Could you imagine the outcry if abused women were arrested when they called police?!? Are you kidding me?!? A teacher rapes a 13 year old and gets 30 days in jail...Another teacher rapes a 13 year old and gets 30 years in jail...The ONLY difference in the cases...You guessed it, one teacher was female and the other was male. Are you kidding me?!?

4) As I wrote before, Women's studies have nothing to do with women in history. They have to do with issues women face in society today, how to deal with those issues, and how to bring change to the system to better women's lives...Why shouldn't Men's studies be promoted to help with all the issues I have noted in my list? Just because they offer Men's studies does not mean it is an attack on Women's studies. It is a way to promote the issues facing men today.

5) So what you are saying is that men should do the grunt work, and women should do all the brain work. Yes, that seems like a fair and just society....Seems a bit elitist, doesn't it? Don't make the boys of today 2nd class citizens tomorrow.

6) Actually, men DO come forward. Studies in Canada, USA, New Zealand, UK, and Australia have shown that over 40% of all domestic violence is perpetrated against men by women. But the belief in society is that all DV is committed by men agaist women. All it takes is a little education to expose the truth. This will help men (maybe your son some day) so they do not have to suffer in silence.

A lot of gender issues can be resolved without putting one sex ahead of the other. We can accomplish a lot of things in society if we work together, as opposed to setting up camp and throwing rocks at each other.
Remember, these are the issues your sons, brothers, husbands, fathers, and friends are facing. Lets protect their rights as human beings. Why would you deny the men closes to you these rights?

 

[Andrew]

Or what if he doesnt want to be burdened with it emotionally or financially and she does?

This is a good point. However i think it should go both ways what if the women wants to opt out? Personally I think they should be able to do this in a court of law. However that being said if you opt out you opt out there is no going back later.

I am not sure what you mean by her opting out....Is it that she opts out of having the baby, or being a parent? I agree it should go both ways. If she does not want to have the baby, then there is nothing he can do about it (but I'm sure it would break his heart, much like if a woman wanted a baby, and her husband forced her to get an abortion...Neither is really right, since that is a terrible heartache to place on anyone)....Now if she didn't want to be a parent and he did, then she should have the right to walk away (which she already does, since she can put the baby up for adoption if she wanted, even without telling the father...Again, could you imagine if the father could put the baby up for adoption without the mother's consent?)

 

[tracy]

If a woman names the father, his consent does need to be obtained in order for her to place a child for adoption. If a man doesn't want to risk a child being born he never knew about, all he can do is see the women he was sleeping with a few months later to make sure they aren't pregnant. A friend of mine wanted to place her child for adoption but his father didn't so she wound up raising him largely on her own.

 

[tracy]

[]

1) Regardless...It is THIER child, so THEY should make the choice. You cannot make someone accountable for something when they have no choice. Could you imagine if your boss held you accountable for something you had no control over? THAT would be illegal in society's eyes, yet forcing someone to be a parent is not against the law?!? How screwed up is that!!!

An unplanned pregnancy isn't something a man has no control over. He has no control over it once it happens, but saying he has no choice in the matter is glossing over the reality that his choice just isn't what he may want it to be. It isn't their child when she's pregnant because it isn't a child. Under the law, a fetus isn't a child. You'd have to change that before you could seriously argue that the child belongs to both parents in the womb.

 

[Andrew]

Re: RE: Men's Rights?

Number 5 made me laugh. How can male circumcision even compare with the removal of your clitoris? I mean THINK ABOUT IT, it doesn't work anymore! That's the entire point.

Female genital mutilation doesn't necessarily involve the removal of the clitoris, though it usually does. Some groups only cut off the clitoral hood which is analogous to the male foreskin.

Personally I think both are icky, but I realize I'm in the minority. I'm the only nurse on my unit who won't participate in circumcisions.

Ouch I have actually never herd of this. 8O As for the guy thing I think I would let LRG make that decision if we had a boy as I don't have a penis so I have no idea about the differences and stuff.

You should let your son make that decision, as really, it is his body, and once you mutilate him, he can't go back. Once he is an adult, if he wanted to get the operation done, then that is his choice, and really, it should be his choice. Let him experience sex the way nature intended, because once you remove the foreskin, the sensitivity and sensation are almost reduced completely, and it doesn't work as it was intended to. Much like removing the clitoral hood desensitises a clitoris.

It is unecessary, and people do it because "it is supposed to be done, isn't it?" When in fact, fewer and fewer countries are performing the mutilation (less than 10% in most developed nations (higher in undeveloped nations, and higher in the USA for some reason (up to 35% in the USA))). It should be banned and outlawed the same as the female counterpart.

 

[Andrew]

Re: RE: Men's Rights?

The only other part of your post I would disagree with is ...#6 a bit. Every history course I have ever taken has focused on men. It isn't called men's studies, but that's what it is.

Women's studies are not about women in history. They are about women's issues. The problems women face, and studies on how to overcome those problems. The same cannot be said for men. There are no courses on men's issues, and the problems facing men. Probably because people turn a blind eye to men's issues, and don't think they are important, but they are just as real and important as women's issues. Just because we pretend the issue doesn't exist, doesn't make it go away.

I have seen men's studies courses before. But they are hardley ever full because noone is interested in them.

That is a start...But the concept needs to be promoted. Much like girls in math and sciences....A big push was made to encourage girls to participate in these areas, and now the girls are equal to teh boys in these areas (which is a good thing), but the same should be done for the boys. It does not hurt the girls to encourage the boys to become stronger in areas they are weaker, so why not?

 

[Andrew]

Re: RE: Men's Rights?

Zzarch, until men carry the fetus/baby inside them there is no such thing as pregnancy equality. Take away her right to decide is basically slavery. Forced birth is equality? The guy will always have the deciding vote and he's not expected to do anything but watch. I couldn't disagree more.

Of course this is a situation where both parties understand each others position on being a parent (or not) (ie a one night stand is assumed neither wants a baby (unless she is just looking for a sperm donor)). I guess the choices should come down to:

1. They decide to keep the baby
2. They decide to abort the baby
3. They decide to give the baby away for adoption
4. She decides she wants the baby, he decides he doesn't, so she gets the baby and he has no further obligations.
5. she doesn't want an abortion, nor does she want the baby, but he does, so he gets the baby and she has no further obligations.
6. She wants an abortion, he wants the baby, she wins, he falls into a deep depression.

Can you think of any more?

The real issue is, you can't have 0% of the choice, yet still 100% of the accountability.

Unfortunantly, you dont have to go through the birthing process that is why it is ultimately upto the women. Sorry you don't like it but that is just the way it is and the way it should always be. But like I said before I agree with the opting out thing. But again I stress if you opt out you can't come back later in life unless you want to cough up alot of child support payments and get the permission of the other party. Ofcourse this is just my opinon.

I believe we are saying the exact same thing, so going through the birthing process or not, we are both saying the same thing.

 

[Andrew]

Nobody should be forced to have an abortion, the same as nobody should be forced to be a parent. The sad part for the man is when he wants the baby and she does not. Her right will always prevail. But in the case where he does not want the baby and she does, then she should go into motherhood understanding that the child will not be supported by a father. That should be a man's right to choose.

that would be fine exsepct some women dont want to be pregnate and they do not want to experience birth and labour and that is why theirrights will prevail over yours.

Nobody is arguing that. But the CHOICE to be a parent should be everyone's right. That is what the discussion is about.

 

[Andrew]

Re: RE: Men's Rights?

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Why don't all women get their tubes tied, then nobody would have to worry about unwanted pregnancies. Doesn't sound so easy anymore, does it.

It does if they don't want children. Either that or use any of the other methods of birth control that are available to them. I've never had an unplanned pregnancy despite being sexually active.

I have not talked with one woman who would get her tubes tied. They don't want to have kids, but didn't think they needed to take "such an extreme step".

But all forms of birth control can (and do) fail. Lots of people have unplanned pregnancies. Not because they are stupid, but because their birth control failed.

 

[Andrew]

Re: RE: Men's Rights?

If a woman names the father, his consent does need to be obtained in order for her to place a child for adoption. If a man doesn't want to risk a child being born he never knew about, all he can do is see the women he was sleeping with a few months later to make sure they aren't pregnant. A friend of mine wanted to place her child for adoption but his father didn't so she wound up raising him largely on her own.

And if she doesn't? I'm sure you would not appreciate it if the father of the child put teh baby up for adoption without giving you the choice of being a parent or not.

There are extreme cases like the one you mentioned, but fathers are not that way, and are loving and caring of their children. She should have given teh father the baby if she didn't want it. That would make him either step up, or agree to the adoption.

 

[Andrew]

[]

1) Regardless...It is THIER child, so THEY should make the choice. You cannot make someone accountable for something when they have no choice. Could you imagine if your boss held you accountable for something you had no control over? THAT would be illegal in society's eyes, yet forcing someone to be a parent is not against the law?!? How screwed up is that!!!

An unplanned pregnancy isn't something a man has no control over. He has no control over it once it happens, but saying he has no choice in the matter is glossing over the reality that his choice just isn't what he may want it to be. It isn't their child when she's pregnant because it isn't a child. Under the law, a fetus isn't a child. You'd have to change that before you could seriously argue that the child belongs to both parents in the womb.

OK, it is THEIR FETUS...Better? How can someone have control over something that was unplanned? That does not make any sense. The couple did all they could do to ensure they did not get pregnant, yet something failed, and there they are, pregnant.

 

[tracy]

Unplanned is not unforseen. If a man doesn't know how to avoid a pregnancy, he missed some very basic sexual education. If he CHOOSES to risk a pregnancy, that's where he made HIS CHOICE. After that, it's too late. It may suck for him, but he has no right to force his ex-current partner to continue with a pregnancy or have an abortion.

My friend made the better choice in keeping her son. His father has no real interest in being a father. He wouldn't agree to the adoption out of spite. That's not the kind of person who should be raising a child. Again, if a man doesn't want to risk his child being put up for adoption without his knowledge, all he has to do is visit his ex sex partner 6 or 7 months down the line. If she looks like she's swallowed a watermellon, you should probably have a talk. Potential fathers can even force DNA tests.

 

[Andrew]

Re: RE: Men's Rights?

Unplanned is not unforseen. If a man doesn't know how to avoid a pregnancy, he missed some very basic sexual education. If he CHOOSES to risk a pregnancy, that's where he made HIS CHOICE. After that, it's too late. It may suck for him, but he has no right to force his ex-current partner to continue with a pregnancy or have an abortion.

My friend made the better choice in keeping her son. His father has no real interest in being a father. He wouldn't agree to the adoption out of spite. That's not the kind of person who should be raising a child. Again, if a man doesn't want to risk his child being put up for adoption without his knowledge, all he has to do is visit his ex sex partner 6 or 7 months down the line. If she looks like she's swallowed a watermellon, you should probably have a talk. Potential fathers can even force DNA tests.

Hardy-har-har...Of course they know the sex ed part of it, but you do put your faith in the birth control, and when that fails, both parties should have a choice. I have never said he should force her either way, but he should still have a choice. If she chooses to keep the baby (fetus), he should have the choice to be a father or not. That is a basic human right.

Well, looking back is 20/20. Good for her. It is not as easy to track down people as you think, especially with today's transient population. There has to be a more regulated way, as opposed to a guy getting lucky enough to find his ex. It is good that he can get a DNA test.

There are cases in the USA, where a DNA test has shown a guy is not the kids father, but he still has to pay child support. How crazy is that?

Also in China, citizens can now ask for DNA testing, and it is providing huge concern. The problem is, fathers are getting themselves and their 3, 4 , 5 year old and older kids tested, and 20% of all tests show the guy is not actually the father of the child. So 1 in 5 kids is not the child of the guy, which, as you could very well understand, is having a huge impact on the society.