Man sets self aflame at Seattle college and dies

[TenPenny]

Serious question, Karrie.
How will you know when it's time?
Usually, it slips up on one, and by the time it taps you on the shoulder, you're too far gone to see.

My mother read some of my grandmother's (her mother-in-law's) diary after she died. There were several passages written expressing how frustrated she was with the fact that, while she could think of what she wanted to say, she couldn't make the right words come out of her mouth. It made me cry to think that she knew what she wanted to say, but the nonsense words she spoke wasn't it. We assumed that, because she spoke nonsense, she was thinking nonsense. Far from it. For a woman who graduated from to Dalhousie University in 1922, that's a horrible way to end things. I think she would have preferred to torch herself, than to suffer through people thinking she was gaga.

 

[shadowshiv]

He absolutely did endanger others. Like the guy who slipped in fuel, and every last person who tried to rescue him. It would have been exceedingly easy for any one of those people to catch fire and be badly burned too.

Not to mention the emotional damage.

If you want to kill yourself, it may be your perogative, but, find a secluded place to do it, not a public square.

Exactly right, Karrie. Those people will have the memory of someone burning alive for the rest of their lives. Not to mention the smell would probably be quite horrendous as well.

And the person who slipped in the gas could have been lit up, as could any of the people who tried to douse the flames with their water bottles. With such small supplies of water, they would have had to get quite close to the flames, and they could have gotten hurt(possibly quite seriously!).

I wonder what happened to him that would have caused him to do something like this?

 

[shadowshiv]

Alzheimer's runs in my family. I have an out plan. It won't involve traumatizing others like that.

Nothing is guaranteed, Karrie, and you may never even get this horrible disease. I certainly hope that it will pass you by. And I also hope they find some sort of cure by the time you are old enough to worry about it. Which will be a LONG time for you.:-(

 

[Praxius]

My family do puzzles, take courses, read like crazy, and I try to make sure I'm always, always, learning something new, for precisely that reason.

well I'll do my best to keep yer brain going then through continual posting in here :twisted:

 

[karrie]

lol... thanks Prax. Always doing your part.

 

[Curiosity]

I find it rather odd the number of people who were appalled at the man committing suicide publicly - alarmed at the images he imparted to the onlookers. Would jumping off a bridge
be any less hard to witness? It is a selfish act - yes - because it totally involved with self and no others. It is a point in the lives of some where there are no more days - no more answers.

Someone who reaches the final decision for whatever personal reason is alone - rarely thinks of onlookers (as was the case here), or the situation and venue in which he or she decides to
do the deed. It is possible he had enough medication in his system to turn down any reaction
he may have on others if he was aware of them at all.

I have often wondered why suicide is looked upon with suspicion when abortions are performed
legally and with input from medics and family - so the discomfort of 'doing something wrong' is
removed entirely.

Many suicides could care less when they finally reach the point of committing the act and who sees them or where they are located - in public or private - they are beyond decision-making.

If suicide wasn't kept in the closet by our society - and was freely discussed as a possibility for some who have end stage illnesses - they should be allowed to consider it freely, make plans if necessary while they are of sound mind without causing such turmoil among the general population.

It is awful for the people going about their daily business having to witness this and I wish more people would discuss the topic.

 

[Praxius]

I find it rather odd the number of people who were appalled at the man committing suicide publicly - alarmed at the images he imparted to the onlookers. Would jumping off a bridge
be any less hard to witness? It is a selfish act - yes - because it totally involved with self and no others. It is a point in the lives of some where there are no more days - no more answers.

Someone who reaches the final decision for whatever personal reason is alone - rarely thinks of onlookers (as was the case here), or the situation and venue in which he or she decides to
do the deed. It is possible he had enough medication in his system to turn down any reaction
he may have on others if he was aware of them at all.

I have often wondered why suicide is looked upon with suspicion when abortions are performed
legally and with input from medics and family - so the discomfort of 'doing something wrong' is
removed entirely.

Many suicides could care less when they finally reach the point of committing the act and who sees them or where they are located - in public or private - they are beyond decision-making.

If suicide wasn't kept in the closet by our society - and was freely discussed as a possibility for some who have end stage illnesses - they should be allowed to consider it freely, make plans if necessary while they are of sound mind without causing such turmoil among the general population.

It is awful for the people going about their daily business having to witness this and I wish more people would discuss the topic.

Well one thing I see some thinking suicide as, is the one and only thing the individual has control over in their life..... their life.... to take it away from theselves or not. While it seems like everything else in our lives is already decided for us, or the decisions we are allowed to make are trivial and make no real difference in what happens in your life.... where everything is owed, where you live is owned by someone else, or some government, or some bank, where your job isn't really your job and the work you do may not seem like the work is your work... it's the companies.

When you teach people but it doesn't seem to stick into their heads, and you feel like it's just a circle of repetitiveness each day, each month, each year.... you see new faces, then after a while they leave, then new faces arrive, and you do what you're paid to do, in order to survive in society..... some people just feel that no matter what they do, no matter how much they put into their lives and all the work that they do, it's still never enough, that they will never have control, that they will never have true freedom..... everything is pre-determined, your bills are already owed on this day, and you already know what's going to happen if you do not pay them or goto work in order to get money to pay for them to avoid the situation you are currently thinking about.

Eventually for some, it all just gradually builds up like tetris on level 9..... too much, too fact to control.... and eventually you blocked it up and yer screwed..... you then feel you have no control, there is no way out, no one is caring or willing to help you get out of this, there are no help cards cuz you used them all up in the 2nd round.

But there is one thing you can do.

I'm not saying go kill yourself... jeez, don't be a dolt to go around listening to what I say, cripes..... but it's not suprising some people eventually come to that conclusion.

 

[Curiosity]

Praxius

Thank you for your response - I believe this example is a bit off the beaten track for many suicides are performed in private and are planned well. No doubt it depends upon the individual but I don't necessarily trust emotional suicide as if there is still emotion, there
may be hope (the antithesis to the self-hate or anger or .....).

I hope this topic can be discussed by others as my own opinion is but one of many now being discussed by people who are making end of life decisions in the case of medical reasons or similar hopeless cul-de-sacs.

You have some interesting thoughts to share and I appreciate them.... Curio

 

[Praxius]

Praxius

Thank you for your response - I believe this example is a bit off the beaten track for many suicides are performed in private and are planned well. No doubt it depends upon the individual but I don't necessarily trust emotional suicide as if there is still emotion, there
may be hope (the antithesis to the self-hate or anger or .....).

I hope this topic can be discussed by others as my own opinion is but one of many now being discussed by people who are making end of life decisions in the case of medical reasons or similar hopeless cul-de-sacs.

You have some interesting thoughts to share and I appreciate them.... Curio

No worries ;-)

 

[fubbleskag]

it's called self-immolation. it's condoned in many eastern religions and is used for a variety of things, but usually as a demonstration of protest of some kind. it has happened quite often throughout history, and at least a few other times already this year. one of the more famous instances was captured in a prize-winning photograph when a number of buddhist monks self-immolated to protest the treatment of buddhists during recent rule within vietnam.

 

[Curiosity]

I always wonder when suicide became a 'sin' - making it a topic of impolite discussion among people and leaving those who have ideations believing they are 100% wrong in the eyes of
their peers.

Is it based in religious or even more archaic dogma?

We value people sacrificing their lives to help others (military, public hero, etc) but revile those who make suicide a choice - when death is the ultimate result.

Is it viewed as cowardly? Is that wrong in society? There are many cowardly acts in life - why is suicide a sin?

 

[Praxius]

it's called self-immolation. it's condoned in many eastern religions and is used for a variety of things, but usually as a demonstration of protest of some kind. it has happened quite often throughout history, and at least a few other times already this year. one of the more famous instances was captured in a prize-winning photograph when a number of buddhist monks self-immolated to protest the treatment of buddhists during recent rule within vietnam.

Yeah I heard of those situations in the past.... this did cross my mind as being done in a similar fashion, but I didn't have enough information to go on that would link this up to similar protests as those you described..... then again, being in a University/College and a professor at said place, it very well could be.

The question then remains, what was he protesting?

 

[Praxius]

I always wonder when suicide became a 'sin' - making it a topic of impolite discussion among people and leaving those who have ideations believing they are 100% wrong in the eyes of
their peers.

Is it based in religious or even more archaic dogma?

We value people sacrificing their lives to help others (military, public hero, etc) but revile those who make suicide a choice - when death is the ultimate result.

Is it viewed as cowardly? Is that wrong in society? There are many cowardly acts in life - why is suicide a sin?

I feel some people look down apon it, shun it, call it a sin, claim you will goto hell if you do it, saying it's a selfish act, etc..... because of their own selfishness.

They have the will and ability to take matters into their own hands and end what they no longer like.... and while some may feel it is selfish for them to do so because of how it would affect those around them, did it ever occur to those people how selfish they are in thinking that, rather then ever bothering to help them in the first place, it's selfish to expect them to do what makes us feel good about ourselves no matter how much they maybe suffering?

It has become a sin because some religious people feel that taking your own life goes against God's plan for you and stopped it sooner then it should have, therefore you goto hell as you ruined God's plan.

People don't talk about it because they feel the more people talk about it, the more accepted it becomes, thus more people would start doing it..... but people are going to do it no matter what other's say or do if they really want to. It's like sex before marriage or abortion.... you just don't do it..... no explination, no alternative solutions, no help.... you're just told it's not an option so forget about it.

Then you have the whole situation where your parents and family have to deal with your funeral, pay for the costs of your death you brought apon them..... and in that sense, there maybe a bit of selfishness..... so if you're gonna kill yourself, make sure your dying last wish is to be tossed into the woods at no expense to your loved ones and then you don't have to worry about that.

But there are many reasons one can mentioned.... most of them are all towards the concept that life is worth living and life is worth fighting for....... the problem sometimes is that people forget what they are fighthing for and if it is actually worth the suffering they are going through..... do they have a way out? Are they stuck? is anybody willing to help? Does anybody really care, or are they just caring just to make themselves feel special that they're helping?

In life, we will all face a time where we will question the worth of it all.... you may not have yet, you might be going through it now..... maybe you won't for another decade or two..... but eventually everybody hits the wall and starts to wonder about it all for one reason or another. Mine hit in grade 5-6 and ended somewhere around 7. I moved on.

Others are different, and when you are faced with a problem in life, you eventually solve it..... but then another comes along, and another, and it just sometimes feels like you're never winning, that it's never going to end, that all these other people around you are having such wonderful lives and it seems to come at ease...... but their lives have difficulties as well..... just different then what you are going through..... and if it isn't hard for them now, it will be eventually.

The only thing you can really do is fight it out, look for the good, plan for the positives in your life and keep going.... think about it.... you made it this far in your life, you had many challenges before, and while some were worse then others, you pulled through..... you can do it again, and you can do it again..... and you can keep doing it until the end. Everybody will have their day to die.... I know mine won't be by my own hands and I won't go down without a fight.

You will come across situations in your life that you never dealt with before, that really hit you in the side of the head and throw you for a loop..... but is that a time to give up and shut everything down.... game over, no continues?

If you run into a wall and don't know where else to turn or can't figure out how to get out of the mess you are in, then do what needs to be done..... get help, nobody can do it all on their own forever. The only other option is the above.

But we all have to figure out our own paths... some are shorter then others.

I know I went through plenty of crap..... in my childhood, school was THE worst time in all of my life thus far. There have been so many times where I thought about just finishing myself off so I didn't have to wake up the next day and face that building full of assholes and the expense thrown on me on an hourly basis.

Beat the crap out of them all some would say...... yeah, easy to say, harder to do when you're the son of a teacher in the school..... I put certain expectations on myself and certain fears that I was being watched more then other students..... I felt that if I got in a fight and seriously crippled another student (Which I had the knowlege and ability to do easily, being the biggest person in the school and military background) but I worried what that would do to my father's job, would I be expelled, would it ruin my future when looking for a job, etc..... I put so much BS on myself that no matter what was done to me..... I let it happen.

I avoided fights because #1 - I didn't want to get myself in touble by my father #2 - I didn't want my father to get into trouble and #3 - I'd probably end up killing a kid, or at the very least beating their face into the concrete until police dragged me off them.....

So I sucked it all up, I put all the pain and depression onto myself..... and I let everybody else in the school to do so as well...... and I had no where to turn and no outlet.

Even when I explained the situation to my dad, and even after he told me I had his permission to crippled the sh*t out of those kids and make a few examples...... I didn't.... because that wasn't me.

Now if it happened today, or if I had the mentality and knowlege I have today back then, I would have gone A-Bomb on a crap load of people and I wouldn't care if I was hauled away by the police, or if someone was killed in the process...... (I still have all of what happened in school pent up deep inside.... waiting for my justice to be unleashed on a few) Today, I have no issues with defending myself in anyway needed.... I don't have to worry about what happens to my father's job, I don't have to worry about my school marks, and I don't have to worry about it affecting my future as much as I once worried about it...... I only have to worry about my own future.

And maybe that is why I no longer have the suicide going through the head anymore..... I answer to myself, I make the decisions for myself, and I will defend myself for myself now.....

Another part would be due to my old religious beliefs having an affect.... believing in a God who apparently wants your life to suck this much, doesn't do well for the self esteme or your faith in that God. Feeling that apparently nothing is in your control and it's "God's Way" can get pretty damn depressing.

That is another reason why I cleared my life of any paticular religion or the concept that some more powerful being has any affect on my life. My life is what I make of it. My decisions are what sets the path I take.... I can only save myself and I can not expect some magical being to do it for me.

Take Responsibility for my Role in life..... Accept the consequences of my actions and my decisions...... I am in existence and my existence has connection to everything surrounding me. I have more choices then I originally thought, and I have more power over what happens in my life then I originally have been taught.

And you all do as well.

 

[karrie]

I always wonder when suicide became a 'sin'...

Is it viewed as cowardly? Is that wrong in society? There are many cowardly acts in life - why is suicide a sin?

I think we as a society declared it a 'sin' in order to dissuade the emotional suicide. The depression based, anger based suicide. I feel it has little to do with the person who has met the end of their life anyhow, and much more to do with the person we hope will get help, get over the hurdle, and carry on living a long and happy life. The sad truth is that if we make suicide 'acceptable' it may make it easier for some to take their lives at a time that may have passed for them.

 

[Curiosity]

Thanks for the answers here - I tend to think of the current movement of assisted suicides being passed into law here in the US - it is legal in Oregon and Washington has it on the ballot
right now.

These are of course end-stage of life suicides. Medicine has increased our lives and in so doing by giving us greater, longer and healthier lives, also creates a stage of life many in the
past have not experienced because they have lost their lives earlier to illness.

Now the respite and hospice care homes are filled with people who are bodies waiting to die but they cannot take the matter into their own hands because they are too ill. They have become infants again. There is a "Do Not Resuscitate" order available but Assisted Suicide
seems a long way off.

If this is a good thing or not - it is entirely up to the individual but I would rather people make these decisions when they are still in good health so their families know what they wish.

Suicide in rage or extreme life disappointment and depression is another area in which I believe we speak about but do little in the way of discussion. I know there are suicide hotlines and prevention discussion groups - I thought maybe the internet would be a good place but then there was that case about three years ago where some teens actually encouraged a boy to take his life on line.....

Religion fights this dealing with death as it should - but it offers no alternatives and if a person is suicidal, the guilt only adds to the burden of decision for the depressed.