Killing two people AND stealing the coffee fund money AND defecating on the mayor's dog outta do it. Don't quote me on that though
Man dies after Taser shock by police at Vancouver airport
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Killing two people AND stealing the coffee fund money AND defecating on the mayor's dog outta do it. Don't quote me on that though
No charges for RCMP in airport Tasering: Report
This thread really has nothing new to input at this point as the Inquiry
is out of session until March 23rd....so there'll be (assumably) nothing
new to note until late in the day on the 23rd, or maybe even the 24th...
That's why this Thread seems to be idling along, instead of racing along.
As JLM points out in post#384 of this Thread, I.P.'s initial defense for
everything Law Enforcement is based on the honourable Law Enforcement
personal that she knows and has met personally. I (though I've butted heads
with her on this subject before, and I'm sure I will again) respect and admire
her conviction and loyalty. I'm sure she knows many GREAT officers, as the
number of real law abiding law enforcement officers in most places far outnumber
the officers like the four (well...the three that have testified so far anyway) in this
inquiry, and the many others spread out in pockets across our nation that are
eroding the character and reputation of all law enforcement personal. I envy
her faith, but I just don't have it myself any longer. This has got to really shake
her world view somewhat and we all should cut her some slack.
The issue of law enforcement investigating themselves in accusations of wrong
-doing (criminal and otherwise) has been brought up. I'm totally against it and
have been singing that song for years now. I believe that is at the heart of the
problem, and putting in place a real and independent investigative body would
go a long way to restoring the public's faith in law enforcement again.
_______________________
This thread really has nothing new to input at this point as the Inquiry
is out of session until March 23rd....so there'll be (assumably) nothing
new to note until late in the day on the 23rd, or maybe even the 24th...
That's why this Thread seems to be idling along, instead of racing along.
As JLM points out in post#384 of this Thread, I.P.'s initial defense for
everything Law Enforcement is based on the honourable Law Enforcement
personal that she knows and has met personally. I (though I've butted heads
with her on this subject before, and I'm sure I will again) respect and admire
her conviction and loyalty. I'm sure she knows many GREAT officers, as the
number of real law abiding law enforcement officers in most places far outnumber
the officers like the four (well...the three that have testified so far anyway) in this
inquiry, and the many others spread out in pockets across our nation that are
eroding the character and reputation of all law enforcement personal. I envy
her faith, but I just don't have it myself any longer. This has got to really shake
her world view somewhat and we all should cut her some slack.
The issue of law enforcement investigating themselves in accusations of wrong
-doing (criminal and otherwise) has been brought up. I'm totally against it and
have been singing that song for years now. I believe that is at the heart of the
problem, and putting in place a real and independent investigative body would
go a long way to restoring the public's faith in law enforcement again.
_______________________
What you saw in the Vancouver Airport incident is something that is much more systemic than exceptional in policing these days. Those RCMP officers surrounded Dziekanski in a manner resembling a pack of pitbulls.
It's a philosophy that promotes overwhelming and immediate force, far out of proportion with the immediate threat, which in this case was minimal, on the assumption that the potential exists. Lost is the art of policing, which first and formost attempts to defuse situations, within the limits of common sense and precaution.
You can actually see both in any Cops program. There are many responsible police officers out there, but there is also a growing gangster mentality in many forces. An attitude that they are the toughest gang in town, that everyone is out to get them, it's us or them. That's not what we should be paying for as taxpayers.
There was an example of this the other day in Duncan BC, when a man weilding a knife was shot dead by the RCMP after attempts to taser and control him had failed. This is what the police are taught even though it should be obvious that police do not get within thrusting range of a knife wielder and have the option to shoot to wound, in the leg, hand. Maximum rather that minimum force is now police policy, especially in the RCMP.
But i don't think anyone could condone these people standing around gloating over themselves, too proud and mighty to apply CPR to a man in distress, that was unconscienable.
The officer who used the taser, 5X, should be fired. The other officers should be severely reprimanded, with unpaid suspension, loss of rank.. but i doubt that will happen. An there needs to be a wholesale change of senior personel responsible for training and policy in the RCMP.
It's a philosophy that promotes overwhelming and immediate force, far out of proportion with the immediate threat, which in this case was minimal, on the assumption that the potential exists. Lost is the art of policing, which first and formost attempts to defuse situations, within the limits of common sense and precaution.
You can actually see both in any Cops program. There are many responsible police officers out there, but there is also a growing gangster mentality in many forces. An attitude that they are the toughest gang in town, that everyone is out to get them, it's us or them. That's not what we should be paying for as taxpayers.
There was an example of this the other day in Duncan BC, when a man weilding a knife was shot dead by the RCMP after attempts to taser and control him had failed. This is what the police are taught even though it should be obvious that police do not get within thrusting range of a knife wielder and have the option to shoot to wound, in the leg, hand. Maximum rather that minimum force is now police policy, especially in the RCMP.
But i don't think anyone could condone these people standing around gloating over themselves, too proud and mighty to apply CPR to a man in distress, that was unconscienable.
The officer who used the taser, 5X, should be fired. The other officers should be severely reprimanded, with unpaid suspension, loss of rank.. but i doubt that will happen. An there needs to be a wholesale change of senior personel responsible for training and policy in the RCMP.
Although it may be unfair to paint "all" the police as murdering thugs, their preponderance seems to be well above the norm.
It is something that definitely NEEDS to be looked at in recruitment and hiring.
I don't know what kind of psychological profiling they go through in the selection process (if any), but it obviously isn't stringent enough to keep the "goon" element out of the forces
Why? Because the deceased was Polish?
How about all the Natives that have died at the hands of Law enforcement in Canada?
Will you act this way and be this aggressive if I start posting those stories?
No brother , not because the deceased was Polish but obviously the four musketeers (all for one and one for all ) are holding a wrong kind of a job .
Black mark in the history of Canada .We have to improve the quality of the Law enforcement in Canada starting now ,not the next century .
Perhaps You won't understand ;being raised in Poland I have allot of love and understanding for the native people of North America .
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Ron, this is the first time I've seen this post. Thank you for your kind words. Thank you also for suggesting that people cut me a little slack. Quite honestly, I felt tromped on like I never expected to be on here so it means a lot. I haven't read your post because all that was going on in here was obviously great fun for everyone but me. I've simply stayed away from reading comments here and in other places by some people. I don't have any problem debating (butting heads) as long as there is some room for some friendliness along with it. For people that cannot suppress their insults there is no room for friendliness. To argue against something that another person is arguing for is fine. Thanks again. IP
That would bring up a lot of hits. Why does it matter if he's an Native or not? (an similar type of relationship may have already made the news somewhere/someplace. Instinctively I go with who seems to be the weakest as being a victim of over-punishment. After reading a summary from both viewpoints that initial though could have switched sides. If the situation is indicative of a larger pattern then the 'incident' would have numerous references with only the names changed.
Treating a scraped knee it not going to solve anything if a hungry beast has just spied you and is now licking it's lips. A truckload of band-aids is not fixing the problem of there being hungry beasts.
If alcohol is involved then that is similar to a major disease. In the Northern Chimes (fields of ice crystals) they have a card, so much/day and that's it as 24 off sales. The bars have 'normal hours'. Every night at 9PM sharp every table in the place gets upset and it is in uproar until closing. Not 1 or 2 nights in a row, you can set the sun by how accurate it is. Now I hope that has something todo to that story I'm supposed to find ( a link would sure save me some time).
As a solution to my example what would be the first thing if the goal was to have all the tables standing at closing time?
I would opt for changing the hours the bar was open. Make closing time earlier so everybody could make it home to bed so sleep happened instead of tables being upset. (could be continued because I don't know it it ever changed and it is related to damage caused by gas sniffing)
I crawl I don't google so we might not get the same results. If I'm going to make a fool of myself the link is only speed that part up.
Treating a scraped knee it not going to solve anything if a hungry beast has just spied you and is now licking it's lips. A truckload of band-aids is not fixing the problem of there being hungry beasts.
If alcohol is involved then that is similar to a major disease. In the Northern Chimes (fields of ice crystals) they have a card, so much/day and that's it as 24 off sales. The bars have 'normal hours'. Every night at 9PM sharp every table in the place gets upset and it is in uproar until closing. Not 1 or 2 nights in a row, you can set the sun by how accurate it is. Now I hope that has something todo to that story I'm supposed to find ( a link would sure save me some time).
As a solution to my example what would be the first thing if the goal was to have all the tables standing at closing time?
I would opt for changing the hours the bar was open. Make closing time earlier so everybody could make it home to bed so sleep happened instead of tables being upset. (could be continued because I don't know it it ever changed and it is related to damage caused by gas sniffing)
I crawl I don't google so we might not get the same results. If I'm going to make a fool of myself the link is only speed that part up.
In the short-term you have to have a much finer set of stats than nationwide. Low/high population, urban/rural, affluent/skid-row speed-freak, week-days/ week-ends (some die from overdoses taken just before they book in for their conditions) age is even a factor. I'm sure the lawyers would have all that but they would certainly seem to be needed. It might even make the claim null&viod by the complainants wishes. ie the higher number was because of skidrows and the % of Natives that wind up there compared to other persons who can be put into a group. The % could be comparing the far North to the docks of the ports. Same # of people overall but 23000 times as many encounters with the court system of Canada. (assuming even most major crime is not visited by a CSI unit if it is Native only)
If that was found to be the case then a course of action (lower the number significantly)could be taken that is effective when taking tazars away only saved a very few lives.
"Ward said while British Columbia is home to a third of the RCMP members in Canada, it's the source of more than half of all in-custody deaths.
"We've got a death rate here in B.C that's about twice as high as it ought to be statistically," he said."
Take this with a grain of salt and at least 10 hours of follow-up reading.
A Canadian Court can operate under common law or under military law (the absolute proper name is Admirality Law. The difference can be as small as the fringe on a flag. Cases are argued very differently. Enter a common one with a ticket and you leave with less money. With Admirality Law you enter with a ticket and you leave with everything you came with. The reason being is you found the 'proposed fine' to be excessive and you were not open to further offers because this was the 3rd time you rejected one from the courts. (this is where you better read for 10 hrs (min) before trying this at home. In court you have to tell the Judge you are using (case reference# her) as a precident in your matter. At that point the Judge is supposed to say The court wants to thank you for appearing today and the court hopes the rest of your day is the same. Next case!
In cases like the one referenced I am not joking. Read up on the differences and once you have that in your mind go over some previous part and look for those very slight differences in the way things are phrased. If some appear there is also suggestion 'out there' to plead your case with very slight variations to how you say things.
In the long-term the First Nations are going to have to administer the highest office below where they sign the checks. That means going by the qualification that are in place for the current employees. If that takes 4 years university in economics, business, whatever then those conditions are met by the person appointed by the Member Nations to those rather well paying jobs.
I would also suggest that a treaty between two separate peoples (First Nations/Invading Mongol European Hoard, sorry couldn't resist)is automatically done on a 50/50 basis. Federal Courts can stall something 20 years or more, a Native Court could conclude a serious matter in a matter of weeks. First Nations should pay no legal fees when in a federal court on treaty matters. The original document should have covered all possible questions. Being in court means it didn't. The criminal liability angle would also mean the original document better not have had intentional loop-holes built in. (having crossed fingers when saying I promise is a hanging offense. More than one offense you get hung, cut down and revived and then hung a final time.
The originator of the treaty creates it in 10 days at the cost of 1M. Dispute, goes to court. Originator says draw it out as long as possible, same law(same schooling) firm for the other side says right on I can stall for 20 years. The crown gets it's money from the taxpayer so they don't care. The best win rate comes from outspending the plaintiff. In the end the Lawyers are laughing with each other at the bar that night over their 100M windfall (5M/yr for the last 20 yrs)
The true cost of the final document is 101M, the First Nations should not be billed 50M because the originators were such sloppy treaty writers. If you are going to have to pay that kind of money pay for the education of somebody from the bands to appear as the Band Legal Council. They should be as trustworthy as a Lawyer can get.
If that was found to be the case then a course of action (lower the number significantly)could be taken that is effective when taking tazars away only saved a very few lives.
"Ward said while British Columbia is home to a third of the RCMP members in Canada, it's the source of more than half of all in-custody deaths.
"We've got a death rate here in B.C that's about twice as high as it ought to be statistically," he said."
Take this with a grain of salt and at least 10 hours of follow-up reading.
A Canadian Court can operate under common law or under military law (the absolute proper name is Admirality Law. The difference can be as small as the fringe on a flag. Cases are argued very differently. Enter a common one with a ticket and you leave with less money. With Admirality Law you enter with a ticket and you leave with everything you came with. The reason being is you found the 'proposed fine' to be excessive and you were not open to further offers because this was the 3rd time you rejected one from the courts. (this is where you better read for 10 hrs (min) before trying this at home. In court you have to tell the Judge you are using (case reference# her) as a precident in your matter. At that point the Judge is supposed to say The court wants to thank you for appearing today and the court hopes the rest of your day is the same. Next case!
In cases like the one referenced I am not joking. Read up on the differences and once you have that in your mind go over some previous part and look for those very slight differences in the way things are phrased. If some appear there is also suggestion 'out there' to plead your case with very slight variations to how you say things.
In the long-term the First Nations are going to have to administer the highest office below where they sign the checks. That means going by the qualification that are in place for the current employees. If that takes 4 years university in economics, business, whatever then those conditions are met by the person appointed by the Member Nations to those rather well paying jobs.
I would also suggest that a treaty between two separate peoples (First Nations/Invading Mongol European Hoard, sorry couldn't resist)is automatically done on a 50/50 basis. Federal Courts can stall something 20 years or more, a Native Court could conclude a serious matter in a matter of weeks. First Nations should pay no legal fees when in a federal court on treaty matters. The original document should have covered all possible questions. Being in court means it didn't. The criminal liability angle would also mean the original document better not have had intentional loop-holes built in. (having crossed fingers when saying I promise is a hanging offense. More than one offense you get hung, cut down and revived and then hung a final time.
The originator of the treaty creates it in 10 days at the cost of 1M. Dispute, goes to court. Originator says draw it out as long as possible, same law(same schooling) firm for the other side says right on I can stall for 20 years. The crown gets it's money from the taxpayer so they don't care. The best win rate comes from outspending the plaintiff. In the end the Lawyers are laughing with each other at the bar that night over their 100M windfall (5M/yr for the last 20 yrs)
The true cost of the final document is 101M, the First Nations should not be billed 50M because the originators were such sloppy treaty writers. If you are going to have to pay that kind of money pay for the education of somebody from the bands to appear as the Band Legal Council. They should be as trustworthy as a Lawyer can get.
RCMP advised to consider skipping the Dziekanski inquiry
Canadian Voices
RCMP advised to consider skipping the Dziekanski inquiry
A story was just posted on our website -- based on internal RCMP emails -- about how RCMP senior brass were advised to consider skipping the Dziekanski inquiry because B.C. didn't have the jurisdiction to investigate a federal police force. RCMP spokesman Sgt. Tim Shields says the force was always committed to participating in the inquiry. Shields says the email we obtained -- written by Chief Supt. Dick Bent and sent to Deputy Commissioner Bill Sweeney (the Mounties' number two in Ottawa...(read more)
Read the complete post at RCMP advised to consider skipping the Dziekanski inquiry - The Paper Trail by Chad Skelton
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Feb 26 2009, 12:00 AM by Vancouver Sun blogs Filed under: rcmp, access to information, dziekanski
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Canadian Voices
RCMP advised to consider skipping the Dziekanski inquiry
A story was just posted on our website -- based on internal RCMP emails -- about how RCMP senior brass were advised to consider skipping the Dziekanski inquiry because B.C. didn't have the jurisdiction to investigate a federal police force. RCMP spokesman Sgt. Tim Shields says the force was always committed to participating in the inquiry. Shields says the email we obtained -- written by Chief Supt. Dick Bent and sent to Deputy Commissioner Bill Sweeney (the Mounties' number two in Ottawa...(read more)
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Post to del.icio.us Feb 26 2009, 12:00 AM by Vancouver Sun blogs Filed under: rcmp, access to information, dziekanski
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Dziekanski left Poland for a new life in Canada
Dziekanski left Poland for a new life in Canada
By Suzanne Fournier, Canwest News ServiceMarch 7, 2009
VANCOUVER — He was a gentle, solitary man with a passion for geography. He never left Poland until he made the huge decision to join his beloved mother in Canada.
On Oct. 13, 2007, Robert Dziekanski packed two bags with books, maps and a few clothes, left behind his life of 40 years in Poland, and embarked on a voyage that was to cost him his life.
Dziekanski, the only child born to Zofia Cisowski, worked as a typesetter and labourer in the industrial city of Gliwice, but wanted to emigrate to Canada to join his mother, who had spent two years and $30,000 trying to bring her son to Kamloops.
“I even sent him flags of Canada and a picture of a Mountie on a horse in front of the mountains, so he put them on his wall,” said Cisowski last week at the Braidwood inquiry into the death of her son at the hands of four RCMP officers at Vancouver International Airport.
Despite his love of cartography, Dziekanski had never been on a plane, never left Poland and spoke no English.
All his immigration papers were in order and, though anxious about travel, he was eager to reunite with his mother, who had told him to wait for her at the baggage carousel in the airport.
After 24 hours on two airplanes, he was calm and pleasant, despite his fear of flying, according to evidence at the inquiry from two flight attendants and a woman who sat near him, who noted he seemed “entirely normal . . . but unworldly and a bit provincial.”
Robert’s aunt, Teresa Dziekanski, said Robert’s “dream” was to help his mother in her Kamloops cleaning business.
Vancouver Province
© Copyright (c) The Province
Dziekanski left Poland for a new life in Canada
By Suzanne Fournier, Canwest News ServiceMarch 7, 2009
VANCOUVER — He was a gentle, solitary man with a passion for geography. He never left Poland until he made the huge decision to join his beloved mother in Canada.
On Oct. 13, 2007, Robert Dziekanski packed two bags with books, maps and a few clothes, left behind his life of 40 years in Poland, and embarked on a voyage that was to cost him his life.
Dziekanski, the only child born to Zofia Cisowski, worked as a typesetter and labourer in the industrial city of Gliwice, but wanted to emigrate to Canada to join his mother, who had spent two years and $30,000 trying to bring her son to Kamloops.
“I even sent him flags of Canada and a picture of a Mountie on a horse in front of the mountains, so he put them on his wall,” said Cisowski last week at the Braidwood inquiry into the death of her son at the hands of four RCMP officers at Vancouver International Airport.
Despite his love of cartography, Dziekanski had never been on a plane, never left Poland and spoke no English.
All his immigration papers were in order and, though anxious about travel, he was eager to reunite with his mother, who had told him to wait for her at the baggage carousel in the airport.
After 24 hours on two airplanes, he was calm and pleasant, despite his fear of flying, according to evidence at the inquiry from two flight attendants and a woman who sat near him, who noted he seemed “entirely normal . . . but unworldly and a bit provincial.”
Robert’s aunt, Teresa Dziekanski, said Robert’s “dream” was to help his mother in her Kamloops cleaning business.
Vancouver Province
© Copyright (c) The Province