Lying Us Into War, Again

[catman]

If the US unilaterally atacks Iran I wonder what Stephen Harper's reaction will be?

 

[Unforgiven]

My view is we should put all the world leaders who advocate violence in a room and let them settle things. George Bush is in pretty good shape. I'm pretty sure he could take Osama Bin Laden. If not he can always tag California's governator

Problem is they just keep pushing you down and telling you to go sit in the room and settle nothing. Then usually take your lunch money.

 

[earth_as_one]

Bush is in pretty good shape. Here he is doing aerobics:

[FONT=verdana, geneva, helvetica]Bush Aerobics[/FONT]

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/multimedia/blbushaerobics.htm

Ahmadinejad challenged Bush, but Bush's handlers refused

No 'steel-cage, grudge match' between Bush, Ahmadinejad

CNN) -- President Bush and his Iranian counterpart, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, may find themselves in the same place later this month, but a White House official shot down the prospect that the two men would engage one another, face-to-face.

The Iranian president may visit New York as part of the United Nations' annual gathering of world leaders. President Bush himself attended and -- like Ahmadinejad -- spoke at the U.N. last year.

Ahmadinejad himself has taken steps to engage the president, sending him a letter earlier this year and, late last month, calling for a "direct television debate" between the leaders. Iran and the United States have been at odds over the former's nuclear program -- which Tehran calls peaceful and legal, and which Washington deems illegal and a dangerous threat -- among other matters. (Full story)

But White House spokesman Tony Snow, addressing reporters aboard Air Force One on Thursday, said that such a meeting would not happen during Ahmadinejad's U.S. visit.

"There's not going to be a steel-case, grudge match between the [U.S.] president and Ahmadinejad," Snow said, noting that Ahmadinejad's invite would be standard U.N. practice. "The president will deliver his speech, and at some other juncture President Ahmadinejad, if the [U.N.] General Assembly so decides, will speak."

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/situation.room/blog/2006/09/no-steel-cage-grudge-match-between.html

Too bad. Such matches could lead to world peace.

 

[MikeyDB]

Yes a no-holds-barred head to head in the Octagon....

No wait...that wouldn't work.

Giving George Bush those many "corners" to return to....tooo confusing...

 

[Just the Facts]

But its clear Israel upped the stakes to include civilians first and I'm not going to let misinformed posts which portray Hezbollah as targetting civilians first go unchallenged.

That's very noble of you. Too bad it's wrong though. Hizbollah attacked civilian targets last summer in it's opening salvo. I'm pretty familiar with the facts because I just had a long drawn out discussion on this topic with someone from another board.

Oh wait...that was you, and it was this board!

http://forums.canadiancontent.net/international-politics/62820-six-days-shook-world.html

 

[normbc9]

Have any of you been to Iran? I'll bet there isn't 1,000 square mikles of their hundreds of thousand that is tillable agricultural land. The rest ids arid, almost waterless and a hellhole. Otrhre than theoil what else of any value is there in that place? They do have a huge Lapis Lazuli deposit in the north but other than that gemstone there isn't anything there. Compared to the Saudi area when this place runs out of oil they won't even have a camel to produce camel dung for making a campfire. Nor palms tree either. But the gunboat diplomacy of the US has made plenty of trouble for the US military recently and they are stretched banjo string tight right now. If they launch a strike of any kind at Iran it will be sheer stupidity that will show again.

 

[Just the Facts]

But the gunboat diplomacy of the US has made plenty of trouble for the US military recently and they are stretched banjo string tight right now. If they launch a strike of any kind at Iran it will be sheer stupidity that will show again.

Unfortunately, I think war is inevitable unless something big happens, like a popular revolution in Iran or the second coming of Christ or The Mahdi or something like that. It's just a matter of time. I don't believe it will neccessarily be the U.S. that starts it. It's funny how quick people are in labelling the U.S. policies as "gunboat" etc. but somehow these blood thirsty regimes like the mullahs in Iran are always victims. Take a look around.

Anyway, I think Earth as One is bang on in his comment about proxy war. Hezboallah is very much a product of Iran. I wouldn't exactly call Israel a proxy army of the U.S. but it wouldn't take much to make them one. If you accept that then the fact of the matter is that Iran has ALREADY invaded the U.S.

 

[Zzarchov]

Israel has never been shown to be targetting civilians directly, and definately not as a policy.

The simplest proof is that there are still lebanese civilians and that in a massive bombing campaign almost none died.

Seriously, maybe you wish Israel was targetting civilians so you say "Haha! Israel has shown its true colours!" , but it hasn't.

A first world nation that wanted to target civilians could whipe out a city in a few hours, hell, a well funded third world country like North Korea could whipe out millions in a few hours.

Even a bunch of unarmed lunatics can cause hundreds of thousands of casualties in a short span of time if they are fighting a similar level of people (see Rwanda)


Quite frankly, you have never proven Israel targetted civilians as a war crime, because they haven't. Because they aren't stupid, if you want to be a rational government who needs international trade, you just can't do that.

That is why even Iran doesn't commit warcrimes, it pays other groups too. Now if you made some solid Proof Israel was paying a proxy group to commit war crimes that might be feasible, but it hasn't, at least not in the last 20 years.

 

[Blackleaf]

With the level of paranoia Americans are suffering, makes you wonder exactly who are the real terrorist and whom is winning the `war on terror`:lol:

What's there to be "paranoid" about?

In the last few months alone the Iranians have, amongst other things, kidnapped British sailors and marines when they were legally (under a UN resolution) in Iraqi waters.

If that wasn't an act of war against the West by the Iranians then I don't know what is.

One of the main reasons that Canadians don't want to go to war with Iran is that they are a mostly peaceneik, liberal country that is populated mostly by vegetarian, green hippies who, amongst other things, want to make nuclear bombs "for peaceful purposes" and who want their soldiers to sit around all day eating marshmallows rather than fighting important wars against people who wish their destruction (for both of these issues, see the other Canadian politics discussion forum where Canadian have actually put these proposals forward).

Remember that Canada is the nation that gave the world Greenpeace.

In Britain, it's rare that Left-Wing governments get into power. In Canada, it's rare that Right-Wing governments get into power.

 

[Just the Facts]

One of the main reasons that Canadians don't want to go to war with Iran is that they are a mostly peaceneik, liberal country that is populated mostly by vegetarian, green hippies who, amongst other things, want to make nuclear bombs "for peaceful purposes" and who want their soldiers to sit around all day eating marshmallows rather than fighting important wars against people who wish their destruction (for both of these issues, see the other Canadian politics discussion forum where Canadian have actually put these proposals forward).

Wow! Where'd that come from? Eat too much spicy Canadian Bacon last night? Pepped up your bangers and mash too much? ;-)

Better check your facts...we're not a warmongering people but once we're pushed over the edge Canada has a history (and a present) of being among the fiercest, most formidable fighting forces in the world. Don't make the mistake of judging us by our helicopters, or better yet, our BRITISH submarines that float like an iron sieve.

Remember that Canada is the nation that gave the world Greenpeace.

Yeah, those vegetarian green marshmallow eating hippies who would never do anything gutsy like, oh, I don't know, get in front of a harpoon in a dinghy in the middle of the Pacific! lol at your post.

Edit: Even our Hippies have more guts than most people. 8)

 

[Just the Facts]

Back to the topic at hand, more evidence that EAO is correct about proxy war...although it may not be so proxy after all.

Didn't Israel just offer up the Golan Heights in exchange for peace? Oh well, they tried.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/122765

 

[earth_as_one]

That's very noble of you. Too bad it's wrong though. Hizbollah attacked civilian targets last summer in it's opening salvo. I'm pretty familiar with the facts because I just had a long drawn out discussion on this topic with someone from another board.

Oh wait...that was you, and it was this board!

http://forums.canadiancontent.net/international-politics/62820-six-days-shook-world.html

All you did was reference a statement which originated from Israel's defense force saying there were civilian casualties during that intial Hezbollah raid. You interpreted that to mean civilians were the object of that attack. I did a little more research and found a reference in Haaretz (An Israeli newspaper) which said 5 civilians were "lightly" injured. The only described injury was "shock". Sounds to me like the civilian injuries from this raid were exaggerated or non-existant.

Using this loose interpretation of injuries which includes psychological shock to make it sound like civilians were deliberately targetted is dishonest. You may interpret that as a deliberate attack on civilians, but I doubt many other people would. Even the IDF did not try to claim Hezbollah deliberately attacked civilian targets that day. They described these attacks as diversionary, not as an attack on civilians.

For all we know the "shocked" civilians referred to by Haaretz were Israeli cabinet ministers who were "shocked" to find out that Hezbollah could kill and capture IDF soldiers and escape back to Lebanon with their prisoners.

 

[MikeyDB]

For whatever reasons, factions within the Palestinian structure of government...(to be kind) are instead of demonstrating solidarity and setting aside their differences to fight the common enemy...are engaged in a brawl that's bound to see innocent men women and children pay the ultimate price.

Maybe it's time to ask ourselves the question..."If these folk can't mange peace among themselves, what's the liklihood that a peace initiative with Israel has any hope of success?

Warring tribes...too many chiefs and not enough indians....time to accept the fact that these folk and many it would seem in the Middle East don't have what it takes to move into civilization...

We see the same thing happening in Afghanistan...everywhere where there are fundamentalist beliefs circulating through a morass of internecine conflict....

These folk...judging by their behavior... have no interest in living peacefully together...

Why should anyone care?

 

[Just the Facts]

All you did was reference a statement which originated from Israel's defense force saying there were civilian casualties during that intial Hezbollah raid. You interpreted that to mean civilians were the object of that attack. I did a little more research and found a reference in Haaretz (An Israeli newspaper) which said 5 civilians were "lightly" injured. The only described injury was "shock". Sounds to me like the civilian injuries from this raid were exaggerated or non-existant.

No, YOU referenced articles talking about injuries. I never said toot about the extent of injuries, other than to state that injuries are irrelevant. Just because Hezbullah sucks at killing innocent civilians, doesn't change the fact that they attacked innocent civilians.

Edit: On day one, I might add. With their opening salvo. Unprovoked.

 

[Just the Facts]

Why should anyone care?

Couldn't agree with your post more MikeyDB. I find myself drifting more and more towards an isolationist stance. Screw the global village, if people want to live like 6th century barbarians, then let them. Hamas WAS elected, right? The will of the people.

Then I think about the innocents who did nothing wrong other than to be born into a cesspool of hate....who want nothing more than to live a life of peace and harmony and see their family grow. Then it's not so cut and dry. Do we abandon them to the barbarians, or do we move to bring the global village into the 21st century?

 

[Phil B]

Do we abandon them to the barbarians, or do we move to bring the global village into the 21st century?

Whats the old saying - You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink..

 

[Just the Facts]

Whats the old saying - You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink..

:smile: True.

But what if most horses want to drink but a few with guns won't let them?

 

[Phil B]

:smile: True.

But what if most horses want to drink but a few with guns won't let them?

Horses have got guns!! When the F*** did that happen - I've only been out for 20 minutes, my god they are clever sneaky little blighters.:smile:

 

[earth_as_one]

For whatever reasons, factions within the Palestinian structure of government...(to be kind) are instead of demonstrating solidarity and setting aside their differences to fight the common enemy...are engaged in a brawl that's bound to see innocent men women and children pay the ultimate price...
Why should anyone care?

I think you missed the point of what just happened.

If I recall, this fight began in earnest about six months ago

28/12/2006Israeli defense official: Fatah arms transfer bolsters forces of peace

ByAmos Harel and Avi Issacharoff, Haaretz Correspondents,

Amos Gilad, head of political military policy at the Defense Ministry, told Israel Radio on Thursday that the assistance provided to Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas' Presidential Guard is aimed at reinforcing the forces of peace in the area...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/806603.html

reinforcing the forces of peace is a code for arming one side of a civil war.

With Israeli Approval, Egypt Sends Arms to Abbas's Fatah Movement



By Mark Lavie
Associated Press
Friday, December 29, 2006

...Amos Gilad, a senior Israeli Defense Ministry official, told Israel Radio that the military assistance was rendered to reinforce the "forces of peace" against the "forces of darkness" threatening the region, a reference to Islamic extremists. There has been a week-long hiatus in violence between Fatah and Hamas, but Palestinians say it could resume at any time.

Israel approved the transfer of 2,000 automatic rifles, 20,000 ammunition clips and 2 million bullets on Wednesday, Israeli officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity because the shipment had not been officially confirmed by Israel, the Palestinians or Egypt.
Ahmed Youssef, a political adviser to Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas, said Egyptian officials had assured him that no arms were sent. He accused Israel of spreading false rumors about an arms shipment in "an attempt to increase tensions among the Palestinians."

Seventeen people have died this month in factional fighting, which included an attempt to assassinate Haniyeh...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/28/AR2006122801126.html

I wouldn't say it was peaceful before, but that's when things got particularly nasty. But Israeli approved arms shipments backfired:

...TEL AVIV -- Hamas yesterday ambushed a convoy in the Gaza Strip and seized a stockpile of U.S. weapons transferred in recent months to militias associated with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah party, according to Hamas and Fatah sources.
"We obtained the U.S. weapons and will keep hijacking any assistance the Americans provide to Fatah. Our fighters are aware of the American and Israeli conspiracies to topple our government. We're trained and well prepared to defeat the American-backed (Palestinian) agents," said a top member of Hamas' so-called military wing in the Gaza Strip...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55682

But Israel and the US weren't the only ones meddling in Gaza. Hamas also got plenty of support from Iran:

Mar 08, 2007 04:30 AM

TEL AVIV–Iran is helping the Islamic movement Hamas upgrade its military capabilities by providing technology, funding and direct training, Israeli security and military sources say...
http://www.thestar.com/article/189575

Eventually Hamas got so good at seizing Israel/US arms shipments that sending more arms to Fatah became completely counterproductive to US/Israeli interests.

June 14, 2007
Hamas Poised to Convert Captured Gaza Strip into Islamist Enclave

...Senior Israeli officers described the Hamas victory to DEBKAfile as a greater misfortune for Israel than its Lebanon War setbacks. There, Hizballah was forced by Israeli military action to accept a UN ceasefire and international peacekeepers.

Hamas has no such incentive. In the case of Gaza, the winner takes all and can dictate terms. A radical Islamic enclave with a dominant Iranian-Syrian military presence has sprung up unopposed as a hostile reality on Israel’s southwestern border. It has made the Israeli-Middle East Quartet’s boycott an irrelevance.

The Hamas Executive Force completed the seizure of all pro-Fatah Presidential Guard border positions, including the Karni goods crossing and the Sufa, Kerem Shalom and Rafah transit points, after midnight Wednesday night, June 14. Their commander Col. Musbah Basichi and his 60 officers fled to Egypt. At least 35 Palestinians were killed in fighting Wednesday.
Hamas pounced as Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert held a belated conversation with the UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon on the deployment of an international force on the Philadelphi route. Hamas leaders flushed with victory will hardly accept such hindrance to the free flow of smuggled arms, missiles and explosives into the Gaza Strip...

...13 June: Overnight, thousands of Palestinian security officers loyal to Fatah were under Hamas siege at their last bastions – Gaza City’s Presidential Guard compound and the General Security command.
They are running out of food, water and ammunition. Hamas and its Executive Force had overrun some 80 percent of the Gaza Strip, while loyalists of Mahmoud Abbas’ Fatah, including complete clans, surrendered and turned in their weapons. Hamas has set up large prisoner camps, some on the rubble of the Gush Katif villages. Wednesday afternoon, a desperate Abbas appealed to Israel to permit arms and ammunition to be transferred from the West Bank. Israeli officers said it was too late. Fatah is a lost case and any arms crossing into Gaza will be seized at once by Hamas.
http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1282

Now that Hamas has all the arms shipped into Gaza by everyone... any doubt what's next? I see a David and Goliath battle coming. If you don't know which is which, Goliath would be the side armed with nukes. David would be the side that was armed with slingshots and now uses weapons captured from its adversaries.