Killer taped boy's torture, prosecutor says

[Praxius]

Joseph Edward Duncan III stalked the Groene family
and killed four of its five members.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/08/14/duncan.slayings.ap/index.html

BOISE, Idaho (AP) -- The crime was meticulously planned, the killer choreographing every step from his surveillance of the doomed family to the videotaped torture of one of his youngest victims.

Yet something as simple as a locked back door, or fiercer family dogs, might have turned Joseph Edward Duncan III away.

Duncan's federal sentencing hearing opened Wednesday with U.S. Attorney Thomas Moss outlining how the convicted pedophile terrorized the Groene family, all because he wanted to "live out his fantasy" and exact revenge on society for perceived wrongs.

Duncan pleaded guilty last year to 10 federal charges in the kidnapping of two siblings, ages 8 and 9, and the murder of the older child. The jury will determine whether he should serve life in prison or be executed.

Moss told jurors they'd have to watch video footage of the sexual torture of 9-year-old Dylan Groene, filmed shortly before Duncan killed him.

Duncan forced 8-year-old Shasta Groene, the sole survivor, to watch the video. He also made her watch as he killed her brother, jurors were told.

Duncan, who is representing himself, told the jury Wednesday that most of what Moss said was fair and accurate "up to the point of what occurred at the campground."

He said he would testify so he could try to "clarify things."

His standby legal counsel, Judy Clarke, has said Duncan doesn't plan to offer any mitigation, such as evidence of his own traumatic childhood.

Shasta's videotaped statements to police will tell her story in court. It's not known if she will offer a victim impact statement.

Duncan's past is littered with arrests and prison time for crimes ranging from car theft to rape and molestation. He is suspected in the 1996 slayings of two half-sisters from Seattle and is charged with the 1997 killing of a young boy in Riverside County, California.

In 2005, he went to Idaho. Duncan broke into the Groenes' Coeur d'Alene home, bludgeoning 13-year-old Slade Groene, his mother, Brenda Groene, and her fiance, Mark McKenzie, before abducting Shasta and Dylan. Duncan has already pleaded guilty in state court for the three murders; the federal case concerns the crimes against Shasta and Dylan.

Duncan had researched police investigation procedures and took steps to avoid getting caught, Moss told jurors. He bought too-large tennis shoes at a thrift store so no bloody footprints would lead police to him. He wiped down shotgun shells before loading them so there'd be no fingerprints. He loaded the first shot with BB pellets because he thought he'd have to shoot the family dogs and didn't necessarily want to kill them.

He had a video camera, a computer and a GPS device filled with locations he thought would be handy, such as potential campsites, Moss said. He brought with him the framing hammer he used to bludgeon the older victims.

On the night of the murders, Duncan crept across a field to the home, using a low-visibility red-bulb flashlight to guide his way. He peered into a window and saw the children sleeping. One of the family dogs saw him and growled, frightening him enough that he retreated to the fence, Moss said.

"He made a decision: `If that back door is locked, I'm going to abort,"' Moss said Duncan later told police.

When he turned the handle, it opened. Then the terror began.

The dogs scurried away when they saw Duncan's gun, Moss said. Duncan bound the family, took the youngest children outside and beat the others to death.

Then he drove away with Dylan and Shasta, making sure they knew he had killed their relatives as he headed into the Montana wilderness.

The trio camped for several weeks at the end of a remote road. When Duncan left the camp, he tied the children to a tree with a dog chain.

On June 22, 2005, Duncan left Shasta at the camp, taking Dylan to a cabin, where he videotaped himself sexually abusing and torturing the boy.

"Heinous, cruel and depraved are tough words in the English language, but none of these words ... fully express the outrage of what you will see," Moss told jurors.

After they returned to the campsite, the first thing Duncan did was show Shasta the video, Moss said.

Then, at some point during the next four days, Shasta heard a gunshot and turned to see Dylan clutching his stomach where he'd been hit. She watched as Duncan walked over to Dylan, held the gun to his head and pulled the trigger. The gun didn't fire, Moss said, so Duncan reloaded and fired again.

Duncan wrapped the body in a tarp, threw it on the campfire and let it burn until it was reduced to ashes. He then took Shasta back to Coeur d'Alene, stopping for a meal at a Denny's restaurant, where a waitress recognized the girl and called police.

Dylan "deserves the justice that only you can provide," Moss told the jury.

Yeah, I say execute the bastard.

 

[coldstream]

Makes me want to re-institute the death penalty for exemplary cases up here. We've had a few. The problem is it always seems to move to the more marginal cases.. and is less than equitably applied to those who can't afford the best defense.

 

[karrie]

He'll suffer. He'll suffer immensely. With or without the death penalty. Karma's a bitch.

 

[coldstream]

He'll suffer. He'll suffer immensely. With or without the death penalty. Karma's a bitch.

I honestly don't know if that's so. Clifford Olson was a very similar type of predator. He's been using his time is prison to build a group of internet pen pals, who sell his art for him. He's also taunted family members of his victims. He couldn't care less, his conscience is shrivelled beyond any sense of remorse for his crime or empathy for his victims. Frankly he doesn't care if he lives or dies. It all means nothing to him, and all he feels is a numb sense of existence. He gets is jollies now and again by inflicting acts of cruelty to those still suffering from his crimes.

 

[karrie]

I guess that all depends on whether or not you think this is the only life/place in which he can suffer.

 

[Colpy]

I've said this before:

I'm against capital punishment under the old rules.......but I believe there are people who should be put to death, there are those so evil we simply should not tolerate their existence.......

they are mass murderers....Clifford olsen, Bernardo and Holmolka, etc.

But, there is also the issue of wrongful conviction.....

So, try each murder separately.....different judge, different jury, different prosecutor........on the third conviction of murder, execute the SOB.........within 30 days.

 

[karrie]

That's an awful lot of money to spend, just to act like them.

 

[Praxius]

I feel the guys who prance around the court room, bragging in great detail on what they did and how, pretty well excludes any error in guilt, not to mention, they clearly have no remorse as all they wanted was a stage for people to listen to them and be the centre of attention, so for situations like that, I have no issues with them being burried up to their chests and publically stoned to death.

Only in questionable situations where some doubt still exists, or the person in question continually denies their role in a crime, can I see no justification for the death penalty and just send them to jail for life.

For me, it should only be applied to nut jobs like this guy who practically begs someone to shoot them, or shoves their actions into the public's eye like some sort of sick game with a smile.

They know what they did.

They love to tell their story, because not many other people are mentally capable of committing such a crime, so they'll wear it like a medal around their necks.

They'll smile at those disgusted at them, and they simply don't give a rats ass what happens to them now.... and if they do, then they certainly seem to believe that they're untouchable.......

...... so kill the bastards and be done with it.

Hell, I'd even go one step futher and wipe their names from all history and records after they dead..... why should they think they'll be the next Charles Manson and be forever marked down in history for what they did? If they're going to not contribute to society, prey on society, and invoke continual fear into society, then why should society acknowlege their existence?

 

[talloola]

I honestly don't know if that's so. Clifford Olson was a very similar type of predator. He's been using his time is prison to build a group of internet pen pals, who sell his art for him. He's also taunted family members of his victims. He couldn't care less, his conscience is shrivelled beyond any sense of remorse for his crime or empathy for his victims. Frankly he doesn't care if he lives or dies. It all means nothing to him, and all he feels is a numb sense of existence.

You're right, he is very arrogant, uses the system to hurt others, flaunts his jokes out
to the victims parents, and get's away with it, and is still doing it, without anyone stopping him.
The parents have to come and watch him taunt them at parole hearings every so often,
and on and on it goes, so, he is actually still committing crimes from inside.

 

[Nuggler]

Makes me want to re-institute the death penalty for exemplary cases up here. We've had a few. The problem is it always seems to move to the more marginal cases.. and is less than equitably applied to those who can't afford the best defense.

Yup.

 

[shadowshiv]

There is no doubt that this piece of waste did the horrible crimes. Therefore, I say either execute him or let him into the general population(but only after letting all the other inmates know that he killed a child) so they can deal with him in their own way.

 

[talloola]

I guess that all depends on whether or not you think this is the only life/place in which he can suffer.

I understand what you are saying, and I guess that is OK, for those who believe he will suffer later, for those who don't believe he will
suffer 'later', we are allowing people like Olsen to continue committing 'immoral' crimes from his jail cell, and I can't have any solice believing that he will finally get 'his' after he
dies, I have much more 'compassion' for people alive that are being tormented by Olsen
or anyone else like him.
What about them!!!
Olsen, and others like, would be much more miserable if they had to live out their lives,
and not be allowed to bother anyone else, ever, then they would be unhappy and uncomfortable, 'which is what they should be'.

 

[karrie]

I think this creates a valid complaint for reforming the way in which freaks like this are jailed. But, not really an argument for us to behave like them.
Find what will truly torment them (like talloola said, no audience), and keep them like that.

 

[Nuggler]

..........He should at least be beaten till he loses that smarmy little smirk, don ya think?

......then, general population.;-)

 

[Praxius]

I understand what you are saying, and I guess that is OK, for those who believe he will suffer later, for those who don't believe he will
suffer 'later', we are allowing people like Olsen to continue committing 'immoral' crimes from his jail cell, and I can't have any solice believing that he will finally get 'his' after he
dies, I have much more 'compassion' for people alive that are being tormented by Olsen
or anyone else like him.
What about them!!!
Olsen, and others like, would be much more miserable if they had to live out their lives,
and not be allowed to bother anyone else, ever, then they would be unhappy and uncomfortable, 'which is what they should be'.

I feel people are looking too far into this.... if the person in question doesn't have any remorse for what they did, they pose the threat of doing it again if given the chance, they continually harass the victims' parents or the victim themselves if they're still alive at parole, still allowed to communicate through the internet, get a bed, food and a roof over their head for the rest of their lives without ever having to work or contribute to society, and continually thumb their noses at the law and those who abide by those laws......

...... then who gives a rats ass about their suffering, their benifits, or wheather or not they will suffer in the afterlife.... the problem is them, the problem is now, the problem is with the victims and their families..... instead of continually putting them back into the spotlight every few years, and instead of continually trying to figure out how to remove their privilages, rights and freedoms so they can't bother anybody else again and trying to see if any of those tactics will work...... shoot the bastard three times in the head, roll them up in a carpet and drop them off a bridge and out to sea.

Problem solved, they won't be bothering anybody anymore, we no longer have to worry about their suffering, or their punishment or further wasted tax dollars on a lost cause, because they are now dead..... there is no more debate, and for those who believe they'll get their suffering in the afterlife..... once again.... three rounds in the head, roll them up in a carpet and chuck them over a bridge out to sea..... They'll get to the afterlife and their suffering sooner.

Everybody wins.

 

[talloola]

I feel people are looking too far into this.... if the person in question doesn't have any remorse for what they did, they pose the threat of doing it again if given the chance, they continually harass the victims' parents or the victim themselves if they're still alive at parole, still allowed to communicate through the internet, get a bed, food and a roof over their head for the rest of their lives without ever having to work or contribute to society, and continually thumb their noses at the law and those who abide by those laws......

...... then who gives a rats ass about their suffering, their benifits, or wheather or not they will suffer in the afterlife.... the problem is them, the problem is now, the problem is with the victims and their families..... instead of continually putting them back into the spotlight every few years, and instead of continually trying to figure out how to remove their privilages, rights and freedoms so they can't bother anybody else again and trying to see if any of those tactics will work...... shoot the bastard three times in the head, roll them up in a carpet and drop them off a bridge and out to sea.

Problem solved, they won't be bothering anybody anymore, we no longer have to worry about their suffering, or their punishment or further wasted tax dollars on a lost cause, because they are now dead..... there is no more debate, and for those who believe they'll get their suffering in the afterlife..... once again.... three rounds in the head, roll them up in a carpet and chuck them over a bridge out to sea..... They'll get to the afterlife and their suffering sooner.

Everybody wins.

Yeah, I can go along with that, it would solve the problems I brought up, but I'm not
sure if it is worse than making the person sit in a cell for the rest of his life, with
no other priviledges other than 3 meals a day, and some very basic other necessities.
Perhaps, but to sit back and allow someone like Olsen, to harrass others on the
outside and let him get away with it, is criminal in my opinion.