Just got partial land expropriation notice.

[temperance]

is this whats to happen ?



WHAT IS EXPROPRIATION

Expropriation occurs when a public agency (for example, the provincial government and its agencies, regional districts, municipalities, school boards and utilities) takes property for a purpose deemed to be in the public interest, even though the owner of the property may not be willing to sell it.
WHEN IS A DECISION MADE TO EXPROPRIATE?

Generally property is expropriated only if there is a failure to reach an agreement between the owner and the agency as to the amount to be paid. Even in this case, the owner and the expropriating authority can enter into an agreement to transfer the property leaving only the amount to be paid to be determined by the Supreme Court.
WHAT CAN BE EXPROPRIATED?

Any interest in land and improvements such as buildings, may be expropriated.
WHO ARE THE MAIN PARTIES INVOLVED IN AN EXPROPRIATION?

There are three main parties involved in an expropriation. They are:

1. The owner(s) of the property.
2. The expropriating authority — this is the body empowered to expropriate land and includes the provincial government and its agencies, regional districts, municipalities, school boards and utilities. It is the expropriating authority with whom you will initially deal and with whom you will discuss the matter of compensation.
3. The approving authority — all expropriations must be approved by an elected, politically accountable authority. Municipal councils are politically accountable for municipal expropriations, the Board of School Trustees for expropriations under the School Act, and the Minister responsible for the administration of government legislation in other cases of expropriation.

WHAT ARE THE STEPS IN AN EXPROPRIATION?

Once a decision has been made to expropriate, the steps are as follows:
1. EXPROPRIATION NOTICE: This is the first formal notice you will receive that your property is being considered for expropriation. It must contain the purpose for which expropriation is required. The Act requires that the Notice be:

• sent by registered mail to every person having a registered interest in the property, together with a copy of the Act
• posted on a sign on the land to be expropriated (or if the land is located outside a municipality, the Notice may be published in a local newspaper); and
• filed in the local land title office.

The Expropriation Notice may also be delivered by hand.
You may find it advisable to contact your lawyer upon being officially notified of an expropriation. All reasonable legal costs incurred by you pertaining to the expropriation will, in most circumstances, be reimbursed by the expropriating authority.
2. REQUEST FOR AN INQUIRY: Once the Expropriation Notice has been served, you may request an inquiry to determine whether the proposed expropriation of the land is necessary to achieve the objectives of the expropriation authority, or if the objectives might be better achieved by varying the amount of land taken or using an alternate site. The provision for an inquiry does not apply to "linear developments" which include highways, railways, hydro or other electric transmission/distribution lines, pipelines, sewer, water or drainage lines/mains.
Your request for an inquiry must be made in writing to the Deputy Attorney General (on Form 2), and served on the expropriating authority within 30 days after receiving the Expropriation Notice. The form must contain the following information:

• your name, address and telephone number;
• the legal description of the land to be expropriated;
• the nature of your interest in the land to be expropriated;
• the reasons for requesting an inquiry.

Write to:

 

[temperance]

sorry repost

 

[TomG]

Ahh Andy, that’s miserable. My wife and I have gone through it twice in the last seven years. I imagine we know the feelings that you and yours are experiencing very well. There is no adequate compensation for what is felt. There is no fair market value for a person’s life and soul. This is long, but I’m, trying to be helpful. Hope I succeed.

On the bright side we were dealing with the Ministry of Transportation in both cases. The MTO were convinced to change their project plans in each case and we retained our land. In our case we recognized the threats at the stage of the early survey work and took action before projects were fully defined. Many project plans are only one of several acceptable alternatives. The initial design may be selected solely on the basis of the best plan from an engineering prospective. Several alternative plans may be almost as good.

Finding allies is all important. Because we recognized the threats at the stage of preliminary survey work we were able to enlist allies before final designs were selected. We were able to deal with MTO and consultant engineers and management. Unfortunately, by the time you receive a letter the issue is with a property department. The project now likely has a lot of bureaucratic inertia. You won’t likely find the flexibility we experienced. The property people are who you deal with. You are now likely within a property department’s mandate and most other bureaucrats will not tread on another’s mandate. Few managers will overrule their staff.

You should recognize that property’s job is to negotiate the best deal possible for the government. They are negotiators and I’ve heard that the experience is not nice. Just don’t take it personally. That would waste your emotional energy and weaken your efforts. There are things you can do.

The realities of expropriation were summarized pretty well above—especially by Temperance. In the face of the public good individual rights are almost non-existent and the individual is left to deal with the full coercive force and resources of a government. As a negotiation it isn’t a fair fight and the best advice in a fight is never enter one that can’t be won. You can’t win by abusing the property people. It is their job to take abuse and get a good deal for the government. They are professionals and you’ll just waste your time when you should be looking for allies.

Fortunately few bureaucrats want to injure people’s lives. If you can find a reason for them to do something different then there’s a good chance that they will. You should know that junior bureaucratic staff is potentially your ally if you have access to them. Other agencies that have overlapping mandates (especially the municipality) also are potential allies. An environmental assessment might be your ally and so might an old cemetery. There potentially many organized groups that might have an interest in your particular expropriation. Bureaucracies don’t like organized opposition and public noise. The Minister then becomes involved. Your trick is to find some allies and make some noise.

You should know that MTO and I imagine all public agencies have policies that stipulate that compromise of private land is a last resort. If you can show that alternatives exist that lessen the impact on private (and especially residential) property than the agency hasn’t met its own policy guidelines. In our cases the policy idea is what worked for us. In addition, our municipality supported us because a road design would have increased their maintenance costs. In our other case, junior MTO staff supported us. The recommendation for expropriation was to create a work area buffer zone. The land wasn’t actually needed. Bureaucrats generally like doing good works from time to time.

If I was in your situation, I wouldn’t try to go it alone. I’d use every delaying tactic I could think of and use the time to search for allies. If you do end up in negotiations, maybe read up on how to negotiate successfully. Before you start, know what your bottom line is and how you can make trouble for your enemy. Never blink. Don’t waste emotional energy. Never negotiate an alternative where you haven’t defined an outcome that is acceptable to you (acceptable not necessarily pleasant). Always know how you plan to achieve a desired outcome, which means knowing how you plan to inflict discomfort on your enemy. Think of the property person a temporary non-personal enemy. Potential noise and disruption are your tools. Ou have to be absolutely certain that you are willing and capable of inflicting pain if you don’t get your way. Know that in most adversarial contests, the side that is able to control the other side’s movements generally wins, and you do want to win. You have to be completely willing to use the tools at your disposal.

You should know that a bottom line might be claiming the expropriation would make the land unusable for your purposes and force expropriation of the entire property plus compensation for search and sales of a new property and relocation. Fair market value always can be agued—especially since the assessment corporation itself was trashed by the government and assessment values frozen.

Expropriation can get expensive, messy and public for an agency. Such a result is not a successful negotiation from the government’s perspective. Know what your tools are. However avoid negotiation if possible. Most agencies will do something different if there are acceptable alternatives provided a project doesn’t yet have overwhelming inertia. Supply the agency with a reason to do something different that’s within their mandate and you may get a different result. The fact that you don’t want the land expropriated is not a good reason. My brother in law’s bottom line was that he wouldn’t, and he went to court about it. The ‘it’ was a new landfill across the road from some of his vacant land. He won but said the costs weren’t worth it. It’s probably best to consider a less extreme bottom line.

 

[Toro]

What if he doesn't have any bats that play baseball?

They cost $10-$20.

It'd be a good investment.

And good commentary from Tom.

 

[Curiosity]

AndyF

Are you up on eminent domain, easements and mineral rights laws on your particular piece of property?

These should all be with your deed from the purchase and it is boring in small print to deter you but
try to locate the deed and have a look see..... many people don't even know they own only the top
surface of their land and the government owns the rights to all values below a certain level.

I think also a public notice should have been filed in the newspaper regarding seizing of any land in your area for a roadway... check your local planning departments - roads.

If you have a city counsellor or municipal politician....get in touch.... and finally make sure you let someone in the media know what is happening and keep that one special person up to date so they can build a story if all else fails....

If you are still forced to surrender a portion of your land for no compensation, your property taxes should be adjusted accordingly.... and if possible retroactively.

Andy one more thing.... I don't know if you are in that domicile for the remainder of your life as a homeowner, but also consider the financial impact on the loss of whatever square footage (in meters sorry) you are about to experience, thus lowering your property value for future reimbursement. Another bit of leverage in your argument.

 

[Curiosity]

TomG - Excellent Post - Lots of good information for Andy..... sorry it had to be from your own personal "front lines" though.... but we all know more from your trials.... appreciate your sharing.

 

[AndyF]

TomG:

Thanks Tom for the heads up. :happy11:

AndyF

 

[AndyF]

AndyF

I think also a public notice should have been filed in the newspaper regarding seizing of any land in your area for a roadway... check your local planning departments - roads.

Yes there were, but to date these could only be generalities of an overall plan that some property owners would be affected, so I can't act on that. It was a given that some would be affected. My letter was a definite intent to action involving me so that is my starting point.

AndyF

 

[hermanntrude]

if it's anything like UK land laws, you won't have a chance of stopping them, but u might negotiate a decent price

 

[TomG]

Andy:

I re-read your first post. If you are in Ontario, the process described doesn’t match our experiences. Of course I also don’t know what kind of road it is or what is meant by the authority. However, something may be off about the process.

In our case, there were general notices of intended work. The announcements appeared more as information about environmental assessments, and the potential effects on private property were obscure. However, information contacts were identified in several agencies and consulting firms. The first indication that something specific would affect our properties was that survey crews appeared unannounced and started planting stakes and brushing sight lines. At that point, information contacts had been identified . We contacted them, and specifics of the intended work were described to us.

We wrote letters to agencies and our municipality that made our cases for alternative designs. In one case, our municipality requested additional project designs. A public meeting was held where the consultants presented their designs to residents. Several weeks later all residents had opportunity to vote on their choice of design, and that was the design selected. In a second case discussions with MTO staff led to approval for an exemption from land acquisition. Although exempted, we still received a letter announcing a property appraisal as part of requirements for work related to a specific project. We were invited to discuss the appraisal when completed. The letter came from a real estate officer in MTO. No mention was made of expropriation or land transfer.

The letter was civil, but even so we were happy it was not relevant to us. Land was acquired from other owners though. As far as I know owners who reach agreement with MTO sign land transfers at some point, and expropriation is initiated if there is failure to reach agreement. I believe that actual expropriations are carried out by municipalities.

What you describe sounds vastly different than what we experienced. However, we only experienced processes administered by MTO. Processes used by municipalities or counties may be different. Still, I suspect something may be off especially if new land survey work hasn’t been highly visible. I'd use any information contact identified, but it might be worthwhile to contact a lawyer who is knowledgeable about these processes. Lawyers can be engaged to provide expert advice without necessarily providing legal representation. You never know what you might find. For example, if the process you are in is administered by a municipality and the process isn’t entirely proper, then you may find an allay in the Ontario Municipal Board. OMB hearings cost a municipality a minimum of $65,000, which provides strong encouragement for small municipalities to follow their own rules.

Hope you reach a conclusion that is acceptable to you. It's not easy getting there though. Luck

 

[vinod1975]

TomG are you a lawyer or what can I ask you my persoal proprty issue.....

 

[Curiosity]

AndyF

Positive thoughts going out to you - we could mount a picket line for you - that would get into the papers ....

Let's a adopt a "mouse that roared" attitude and see you through this .... please keep in touch re your personal trials ... and I send my sympathy having to deal with a bureaucratic entity.

Road can be anything but a major thoroughfare adjacent to your property can decrease the value of your homestead
considerably. There has to be a designated plan already in place either in Engineering/Roads or Planning in order to send out those notices. That will give you the properties affected by this "new development" which is going to encroach your land....

Is there a chance for a Class Action? Did any of your neighbors receive similar notices?

Sorry I nag with my questions and you have much more important work to do. Best wishes!

 

[TomG]

TomG are you a lawyer or what can I ask you my persoal proprty issue.....

I'm not a lawyer. I live happily with my wife in my very rural community. To live here, you do learn to pay close attention to what is around you though.

The only thing I have to offer is descriptions of my own experiences. Anything else would not be responsible on my part.

 

[vinod1975]

TomG , I appreciate the way you have replied , any ways thanks a tone...

 

[AndyF]

Tom:

I have an appointment tomorrow with the Municipality. I and others who got the letter are going down for an info getting session. The official there seemed willing to help, and offered to come down to place markers to show actual locations and said that would be a great help, but what I'm looking for is the number of square feet I'm losing, and get some vibes on attitudes when I suggest they do some landscaping. I guess you can call it feeling out the enemy. I'll thank him, tell him that I'll make an official presentation soon and then I'll hire an appraiser.

Your situation is different as I'm not contesting their rights or the work itself, I just want fair compensation and damage repair work that would restore the value of the remaining property. After tomorrow's meeting I'm setting out on my own for my case and won't get involved with the rest. The reason is I get the impression they are willing to resign themselves early in the fight and I don't get a feeling of true commitment from them. I'm the angriest and have most to lose in land as they have small frontages.

Without getting into lawyers too much, and not painting them all with the same brush, rural lawyers in general are a bit too familiar for my liking, and they don't know when and from whom they should distance themselves. I've done a lot of real estate dealings before, and held a few morgages of my own mostly rural, so I've been exposed to a lot. For instance in one case while waiting for my counsel to finish a phone call with his opponent, by the casual relaxed aire, the occasional chuckle, and first name bases way he was talking, I couldn't help feel that if I left the room they would be discussing Saturday's BBQ. I don't mind that he may know the other lawyer, but I expect him to place certain principles above others has my counsel. He should care about how he appears to his client, and be on the watch for standard protocol at all times. We always hope that we get a firebrand type "Greenspon" who's willing to leap at every technicality to win a case. One time I even helped a lawyer along with an inovative sure-win idea, (even if I say so myself, gleaned from another case:grin, and excellent legal material that he could have used, but he was disinterested. Country lawyers want to win but it's a trade off between the amount of effort and what is to be gained. If they only hope to gain a few hundred from a mediocre case such has mine, where's the incentive to fight to the end? Cases from poor guys like me are the ors-d'ouvres of their banquet cases. So I'll use them only when I realize a genuine opposition.

In our case, there were general notices of intended work.

It would seem to me the newspaper ad would need to show the survey map of your lot and/or the actual lot/concession of your property. Wording where it is descriptive,uncertain and ambiguous would not be legal in my view. Makes sense, it would be risky to have a building lifted for relocation simply on the evidence of an ad in the paper, or even verbally from authority.

Surveying crews aften show up to position underground services, like hydro and phone, and staking could be simply to indicate a location for temporary work. Again, just for the sake of argument, relocating a building on those grounds is risky. They may not be following procedure, but doing it this way sets up a potential legal nightmare for the authority if this activity sent the wrong message. M2C

Similar is what I experienced. He sent me the letter unregistered. That means if I have the cash, I could sit on my hands and wait till they finish the land grab, then take it to the supreme court on the grounds I never got the letter.

Service

(2) Any document required by this Act to be served may be served personally or by registered mail addressed to the person to be served at the person’s last known address, or if that person or person’s address is unknown, by publication once a week for three weeks in a newspaper having general circulation in the locality in which the land concerned is situate and service shall be deemed to be made,

(a) in the case of service by registered mail, on the second day after the day of mailing; and

(b) in the case of service by publication, on the date of the third publication. R.S.O. 1990, c. E.26, s. 1 (2).


Thanks for the post.

AndyF

 

[MikeyDB]

I'm with Toro on this one.

A friend of mine has some property near Baltimore. A few years back he built a lean-to on the side of his house for his daughters car.....

A building inspector showed up and told him he'd either pay a fine or tear it down because he didn't have a "permit"....

My friend excused himself and went into a back room to return with a shotgun which he indicated to the revenuer that his permit was signed by Remmington and he felt that was adequate....

Never heard from them again.

 

[AndyF]

Never heard from them again.

Just love the way they do things down below. :thumbup:

Up here we are still collectively wrapped in our loyalist, "the queens rep will take care of me" psyche. Comes from a few hundred years of doing what we are told. Yet another reason for us to cut the umbilical cord. I think your subject's remedy as general rule to be applied all the time would be dangerous of course, but for every once and awhile as an eye opener to the civil servants as a message that they can hurt people, I think it's healthy. In Canada the Crown would "not be amused" of course.

My favorite story is a town in CA, forget the name, where they had just finished an election including new councilors. First on the agenda was raising municiple taxes. The next day a handful of municiple civil servants including the new mayor were looking for work.:laughing8: The lesson to be learned is "get a feel of what the people don't want".

AndyF

 

[AndyF]

Curiosity:

The only people who conduct effective pickets in Canada so far are the first nations people. These people live on a do or die principle, and the government knows it. Our southern neighbours have it down to a science. The rest of us are wooses compared to them. Real pickets take time to have effect, and us Canuk's are determined just as long as it doesn't interfere with Y&R and Jag. I would get full showing at 8AM and a few stragglers remaining at 4PM. Just being realistic not critical.

The road was existing and they want to widen it. That's OK, just want to be paid for what they take and want them to repair to recoup the damage they do to my remainding property.

AndF

 

[TomG]

Good morning Andy:

It sounds like you are focused and pretty well up on things.

From what you’ve written, I imagine you are aware of the importance of an OLS certified survey in any land severance. I’ll carry on never the less. The quality of survey work here and in many rural Ontario areas is highly variable, and in addition, large scale resource extraction, hydro development etc. have destroyed many of the landmarks used for off-sets in the past.

Property lines are often unable to be resolved by land survey methods. The back lines of each of our properties are examples. Fences are unpopular around here so there also are few traditionally accepted boundaries. These sorts of issues could affect resale value of a property, the ability to obtain a mortgage or insurance liability claims. There are some difficult situations around here.

As far as I know, technically only the most recent survey completed in a lot is valid. The most recent survey might resolve inconsistencies, find markers or off-sets or former notes, or use assumptions diffeent than those used in past surveys. Survey stakes may have been moved or notes made. These types of changes may affect all or any other parcels in a lot. For this reason MTO surveys its highway right of ways periodically. Their survey work was fortunate for us since a row of mature white pines along our frontage proved to be our pines by about two foot. If they had been MTO pines we may have lost our land or ended up arguing at length with the government.

MTO gets ‘points’ for designs that preserve mature trees, and that may have been the deciding factor that resulted in a project design change. Our underground hydro service and septic leeching bed that may have been compromised was of little importance compared to the trees. Even trees can be allies. Help and support is where you find it I guess. Take care, and I’d sure make sure that any land transfer was described in a current OLS survey.

 

[Curiosity]

LOL Andy

You write:

Curiosity:

The only people who conduct effective pickets in Canada so far are the first nations people. These people live on a do or die principle, and the government knows it. Our southern neighbours have it down to a science. The rest of us are wooses compared to them. Real pickets take time to have effect, and us Canuk's are determined just as long as it doesn't interfere with Y&R and Jag. I would get full showing at 8AM and a few stragglers remaining at 4PM. Just being realistic not critical.

The road was existing and they want to widen it. That's OK, just want to be paid for what they take and want them to repair to recoup the damage they do to my remainding property.

I promise I won't gather a bunch of ditzy folk to drive you mad with our chanting and home-made placards lol....although a 24 hour/7 day a week of broadcasting Celine Dion singing might get some attention hahaha.

The thing is - you have not been informed as to the dimensional "taking" of your land and what that aggregate amount would be worth both in reduction of your existing municipal taxes, plus the detrimental effect to any of your utility services, plus the possibility of increased noise and its proposed abatement by the "road folk".

These are all issues you have a right to know about and your town engineers and planners and councillors have already had a look-see on their meeting agenda with this item.

Roads and utilites are usually slid through motions in council meetings because they are a bore except to the property owners affected.

California property is prized as a citizen's right perhaps because the taxation on the land is so weighty, but the planning process as a result is fair, pretty legal, and includes the home owners' right of retaliation before anything commences.

Please make all your resources available and tapped into so you know when this "expansion" was approved, when the actual destruction of your property will take place, your auditor controller person who levies the taxation in your municipality, the municipal administrator, your elected representative and finally a reliable media person......and a landscaper who can estimate the value of replacement.

Also you need to find out how many properties are affected (amazingly they are keeping this from you...perhaps fearing a class action fight?)....you should have been advised already of all the addresses of the properties involved so the people along that roadway can discuss and plan.

Bureaucracies, even small town ones tend to be officious when dealing with the public - but remember it is you - the property owner who pays the money in taxation for the people on staff....it is your right to know exactly what is planned and when....and what your reimbursement will be....and finally if your zoning will be downgraded - which will affect your resale value in the future. If it is going to be a commercially utilized roadway, you will have commercial vehicles constantly utilizing it.

When a roadway expansion is planned in my little town, there are at least five years of planning and preparation and rezoning and hearings from the impacted property owners. At the onset when the plan is submitted for approval by the planning commission, the map is printed in the local paper for the community to view and assess if they are going to be affected.

Is all this going to be bypassed by that nasty letter? I sincerely hope not.