Jesus was a Liberal

[petros]

Neither. It can be educated out of some people, that's largely how I got there. A good scientific education is pretty corrosive to faith if you can generalize it from just the narrow perspective of the science to a broader view of how the world works, but faith in general is just as much alive as it's ever been. It's not going away any time soon, at least not until we get over our fear of death, and even that might not do it. Faith, considered as belief without evidence, and sometimes in the teeth of the evidence, is magical thinking. That's the default for most of us, we are not generally rational critical thinkers. We're capable of rational critical thinking, certainly, but that's a learned skill and it's bloody difficult, both to teach and to learn.

Speaking of evidence, look around. Its everywhere. Rekindle your instinct without trying to find the logic. Stop looking for patterns.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Speaking of evidence, look around. Its everywhere.

Evidence of what? I don't know what you're claiming here.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Neither. It can be educated out of some people, that's largely how I got there. A good scientific education is pretty corrosive to faith if you can generalize it from just the narrow perspective of the science to a broader view of how the world works, but faith in general is just as much alive as it's ever been. It's not going away any time soon, at least not until we get over our fear of death, and even that might not do it. Faith, considered as belief without evidence, and sometimes in the teeth of the evidence, is magical thinking. That's the default for most of us, we are not generally rational critical thinkers. We're capable of rational critical thinking, certainly, but that's a learned skill and it's bloody difficult, both to teach and to learn.

A quick run through a logic book, plus 30 seconds of reflection, demonstrates that the entire doctrine of any religion is a long string of logical fallacies.

And therefore something people are willing to die for. And kill for, generally in the name of a god who commanded them to love.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Hasn’t the eyeball evolved at four separate occasions already? I think I read a while back that the crab (the physical design for a crab) has evolved 8 different times already…this is just what we know about as far as evolution on the planet Earth goes.

I don’t know what the above is proof of, but it’s interesting in that an economical design can repeatedly evolve. Chances are when we finally leave the Earth and find life elsewhere….We are probably going to find crabs. I’m not saying that’s a good or bad thing.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Hasn’t the eyeball evolved at four separate occasions already? I think I read a while back that the crab (the physical design for a crab) has evolved 8 different times already…this is just what we know about as far as evolution on the planet Earth goes.

I don’t know what the above is proof of, but it’s interesting in that an economical design can repeatedly evolve. Chances are when we finally leave the Earth and find life elsewhere….We are probably going to find crabs. I’m not saying that’s a good or bad thing.

Yeah, and there's a reason an aircraft looks a lot like a shark. Similar problems tend to lead to similar solutions.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Yeah, and there's a reason an aircraft looks a lot like a shark. Similar problems tend to lead to similar solutions.

 

[petros]

Evidence of what? I don't know what you're claiming here.

The illogic Mr.Spock, the illogic.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Certainly there’s plenty of evidence of illogic around, but with that and your previous post you appear to be suggesting that abandoning logic is a useful way to understand certain things. It’s not, it leads nowhere but to self-deception and wishful thinking. Reminds me of Jesus’ remark to Doubting Thomas in John’s gospel, to the effect that blessed is he who believes without seeing. Probably the dumbest thing he was ever reported as saying.

 

[petros]

Certainly there’s plenty of evidence of illogic around, but with that and your previous post you appear to be suggesting that abandoning logic is a useful way to understand certain things. It’s not, it leads nowhere.

Exactly. Thats the beauty of it. Its not a pattern with defined boundries you can wrap you mind around. Nowhere is where youll find what you think couldn’t possibly exist.

Here a a sociological pattern for you. The people with the least regardless of education are the most devout regardless of religion or belief. Why?

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Exactly. Thats the beauty of it. Its not a pattern with defined boundries you can wrap you mind around. Nowhere is where youll find what you think couldn’t possibly exist.

Sounds like you’ve been taught by Jesuits, that’s fairly typical of their specious sophistry. Nowhere seems to me pretty much by definition a place we can’t go, and something we can’t wrap our minds around is incomprehensible. Can’t see myself wasting time and energy puzzling over that. If the world is not, at least in principle, consistent and comprehensible, there’s no point in trying to make sense of anything.

Here a a sociological pattern for you. The people with the least regardless of education are the most devout regardless of religion or belief. Why?

Probably because it comforts them in their penury and deprivation. Doesn’t mean any of their beliefs are true. I’m more interested in what reason and evidence can show to be worth accepting as true than in what people want to believe is true.

 

[petros]

Are you sure its not Buddhist or Haida or Botswanan shamanistic?

Who said anything about deprived? The least means deprived? Why do you think that its about poverty and desperation?

Have you considered its because of gratitude?

Cant they be grateful rather than deprived? What are they deprived of? Family? Community? A functional governance? Happiness? Pride? Safety? Life? Giving? Sharing?

What are they deprived of other than what they call evil tries to take from them?

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Cant they be grateful rather than deprived? What are they deprived of? Family? Community? A functional governance? Happiness? Pride? Safety? Life? Giving? Sharing

You didn’t specify, you just said people with the least, which I’m sure most of us would take to mean their basic material needs are not being met. Nobody would be grateful for that. I’m still inclined to believe people turn to religion because it provides comforting myths about life and death and prayer offers the illusion of having influence over events they don’t and can’t have.

 

[petros]

You didn’t specify, you just said people with the least, which I’m sure most of us would take to mean their basic material needs are not being met. Nobody would be grateful for that. I’m still inclined to believe people turn to religion because it provides comforting myths about life and death and prayer offers the illusion of having influence over events they don’t and can’t have.

Nobody would be grateful to still have family, love, community, friendships, morals life because the goats and chickens sometime slow production or insects raid a crop and thats your evidence of no creator?

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Nobody would be grateful to still have family, love, community, friendships, morals life because the goats and chickens sometime slow production or insects raid a crop and thats your evidence of no creator?

Having trouble with reading comprehension? That’s nowhere close to what I said, or anything I’ve ever said.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

If the existence of a thing proves that it has a creator, who or what created Gawd?

"Aye, there's the rub. . ."
--Hamlet III:1

 

[petros]

Having trouble with reading comprehension? That’s nowhere close to what I said, or anything I’ve ever said.

You didnt have to say anything after jumping straight to poverty as a reason to turn to "myth" or that a person lacking wouldnt be grateful.

Ive stated time and time again bad shit happening to people who believe isnt evidence of no god. You keep trying. Why?

When man is capable of defining a hole without describing its surroundings, then maybe youll be able to crack the god nut on paper but that gonna happen.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Ive stated time and time again bad shit happening to people who believe isnt evidence of no god. You keep trying. Why?

That's not my argument and never has been, beats me how you got to the conclusion that it is. More generally I don't see how there can be evidence that something doesn't exist, there'll just be no evidence that it does, and that is the essence of my position. Bad shit happening to believers, or anyone else, isn't evidence of no god and I've never argued that it is, at best that would be evidence that god doesn't have the characteristics usually ascribed to him, a position I *have* argued.

My position has always been that the evidence and arguments offered in support of the claim that there's a god are not adequate to justify accepting the claim as true, and the burden of proof is on those making the claim, not on me for doubting it.

 

[petros]

That's not my argument and never has been, beats me how you got to the conclusion that it is. More generally I don't see how there can be evidence that something doesn't exist, there'll just be no evidence that it does, and that is the essence of my position. Bad shit happening to believers, or anyone else, isn't evidence of no god and I've never argued that it is, at best that would be evidence that god doesn't have the characteristics usually ascribed to him, a position I *have* argued.

My position has always been that the evidence and arguments offered in support of the claim that there's a god are not adequate to justify accepting the claim as true, and the burden of proof is on those making the claim, not on me for doubting it.

Whats you idea of "evidence"? The definition of a hole without a definition of its surroundings?

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Whats you idea of "evidence"? The definition of a hole without a definition of its surroundings?

No, evidence is the body of information—facts, observations, test results, analyses, conclusions, stuff like that—that can be offered in support of the claim that a given proposition is true or false.

 

[petros]

No, evidence is the body of information—facts, observations, test results, analyses, conclusions, stuff like that—that can be offered in support of the claim that a given proposition is true or false.

So what do you on the false side?