Islam? Tolerant? Yeah right!

[Finder]

Jersay, to be fare to ITN, he is thinking generally only of the 1930's when it comes to ww2. So yes during the 1930's the only way to prevent Hitler and Germany from doing what it did was for direct action. What I was talking about is what caused Hitler and the general german reactions which takes place as early as ww1 but largely during the 1920's. If things were changed in the 1920's I highly doubt we would have had to worry about Hitler. Of course the right wing and even the extreme left wing tend to over look the fact that it was 1920 policies which crushed germany economically which lead to the crisis in in the 1930's in which by that time the right wing becomes right and direct action was the only real solution in which many nations were extremely hesitant to take, yet in the 20's extremely liberal on economic crushing policies towards germany.

So ITN is right and wrong. But compairing ww2 and ww1 to the current events is somewhat.... hard to do at best. Perhaps how we treat Iraq after defeating them in war is the best situation. Do we keep them down like we did Germany after ww2, occupying parts of it which the people will tend to remember. Hurt them economically, such as there economies is in ruins after the war currrently, or do we find a more prgressive solution to this problem? This is what I see as a shadow of ww1 and we seem to be making at least some of the mistakes over again. They say Facsism was born from the ashes of ww1 in germany. I do not think it is hard to see this supposed Islamo-fascism the right always talks about being born from the Iraqi war and the downfall of the seculer government.

Thats where I see history being mirriored.

 

[I think not]

Finder

I'm not quite sure how many ways I can explain it to you what I am trying to convey. So let me start from scratch. And don’t post any definitions, I’m well aware of what I’m talking about.

Since your keen on definitions, I’ll make multiculturalism short for you, maintaining an identity that is different from the combined masses. It is in fact, in my opinion a divisive force. There should be an anticipated degree of multiculturalism, but by far and large integration should be exercised. By integration I do not mean abandon your culture, that would make America and Canada, very boring in my opinion. Every immigrant that has arrived in North America has brought with them food, songs, art, literature, hard work, languages etc. They have maintained their culture. BUT, they have also integrated into our societies (Hold this thought on Canada for a bit).

Europeans define multiculturalism as a group of immigrants being segregated into ghettos. This is made abundantly clear if you look at the demographics of Europe, where the concentrations of immigrants are located. This is in fact the preferred [European] method of dealing with immigration. For Europeans it has always been us and them, nothing has changed in that regard. You have to understand (unless you are aware of it already), Europe hasn’t changed much over the centuries in terms of “elitism” and “feudalism”. A young man or woman in Canada or the US can start from cleaning toilets to become members of the Supreme Court, Government and other “high ranking” positions. In Europe, they are bred from birth to govern, whether they are on the left or the right of the political spectrum, it is inconceivable to climb the political ladder in Europe, although there have been exceptions, unless you are part of a group of elitists.

These elitists are the ones that make policy, anybody that deviates from the “norm” is attacked by the press with fervor. Tell me Finder, have you ever been to Europe? If you have, then you should know what I am talking about, if not, allow me to elaborate a bit. One is hard pressed to find dissenting opinions on critical issues anywhere in Europe and when there are a few dissenting voices, they get struck down and ridiculed by the rest of the media. Take the Iraq War for example, all of the European media was condemning the Iraq War. It is not important for our discussion whether or not the war was justified, what matters is, the lack of differing opinions on the subject. This is typical approach with any issue. Same for multiculturalism, their planned failed and nobody wants to address it because they are full of political correctness up their arse.

These elitists believed that immigrants would marry the “local” population and eventually become integrated. Didn’t happen. Because of “family reunification”. Immigration laws in many Western European countries permit a citizen or permanent resident to bring over sisters, brothers, aunts, uncles, husbands, wives you name it, they can bring them over. Not only did they not integrate, but they became more isolated by becoming more fundamentalists because what they see in Western Europe is an affront to their entire belief system. All women are whores, homosexuals should be summarily put to death, women’s rights are non-sense, they disobey they get beaten etc.
Do you really want to keep separate a religion that preaches these things? Islam means “submission” at least in its fundamentalist form it demands nothing less. They have been taught that they owe no deference to any non-believer, whether they are police officers, teachers or government, because in the eyes of God, no non-Muslim has a legitimate right to occupy a position of power over Muslims. They are an increasing threat in Europe and Europeans are starting to wake up, even the left parties have begun drawing the lines.

Now, a reference to the US. There are many Americans (black race) that refer to themselves as African-American, do you know why? Because they have YET to integrate into American society, any form of hyphenated American has not integrated. This was caused by, what else? Segregation. What is happening in Europe happened in the US 50 years ago, and they have learned nothing. The only difference here is, which makes it dangerous, is their fundamentalist religion.

Ok, I got tired, can’t type anymore. I'll get into my explanation of WWI and so forth tomorrow.

 

[Finder]

I have been to Europe, and you are right about what you said. But generally this is prevalent in the UK, as the Class system though weakend greatly over the years is still there. But in France, and in many other places in Europe I would have to disagree with you. The government does not place these people into the ghettos, but these are economic divides which have happend to a greater extend naturally from less government interferance in society. The reason immigrant refugee's and by in large immigrants in general do not usually have great sums of money and can not afford the best housing. So they buy housing they can afford. Meaning you will have immigrants often in low cost housing. Now these people are coming from different counties and since they have few resources they usually think since they have next to nothing who can help me.... Friends and family. They come from the same country so they end up living close to each other. Time this buy the number of immigrants you get over a 100 year time you've pretty much made a little china, little Italy or whatever.

I don't think in todays societies, in Europe or North America, it is exceptable to send a facsist or communist army down these streets and tell people you have to spread out like they did to the Chechens in the soviet union or as the germans did in nazi germany. But you are right as I've read in some of your other posts this is what the Islamo-facists tend to do at times, in some counties, at least the extremists do this. But really what are you telling me, to fight them we have to become them? No I don't accept that.

Also your view on how Europeans see multicultualism is very odd and at best perhaps communists and extreme lefts in these coutnies may believe there government is putting these people into ghettos, and generally you are right they should do something to intergrade these people better into society and perhaps that is one of the problems. But if that is so, what you see as multiculteralism, is indeed what multiculturalism isn't.

 

[I think not]

Finder

I just want to make one quick comment before I go after reading your post. I am not suggesting we become them, I am suggesting that multiculturalism must turn into integration. In order to achieve this, opportunities must be given to immigrants in Europe, the same opportunities given to everybody else. And other things must be done also. Example, when immigrants arrive in Europe, they can take courses to further research their traditions and culture at the expense of the states. I mean, what logic does this have? If you go to a new country, you would think the new county would offer seminars or classes helping you to integrate into your new society, not stay away from it.

 

[Finder]

ITN
I agree we should highlight integration more in multicultualism, to a point. But I still have to disagree with you on some points as in many parts of Europe they have been integrating immigrants more and more. I can not speak for all parts of Europe but in Northern Europe and France I know this to be true. However the economic problems still increase intolerance towards french society I know that as well. But the only way for the french government to correct that would be to make even harder leftist economic policies (which I do not think you support) or anti immigration policies to what extent I do not know what your solution to the problem is beyound just saying they should be integrated.

But yes you are right to a point mulitcultualism should have a blending of keeping ones culture but also accepting cultural norms of the hoast country as well. I totally agree with you on this one. I'll even go further and say the NDP needs to re-learn this as well. At one point they did understand this but they tend to take up the extreme end of multicultualism were the host counties culture means less then the immigrants.


Such as changing our seculer nation to adopt there religous traditions in puplic life.

 

[Jersay]

Finder

I'm not quite sure how many ways I can explain it to you what I am trying to convey. So let me start from scratch. And don’t post any definitions, I’m well aware of what I’m talking about.

Since your keen on definitions, I’ll make multiculturalism short for you, maintaining an identity that is different from the combined masses. It is in fact, in my opinion a divisive force. There should be an anticipated degree of multiculturalism, but by far and large integration should be exercised. By integration I do not mean abandon your culture, that would make America and Canada, very boring in my opinion. Every immigrant that has arrived in North America has brought with them food, songs, art, literature, hard work, languages etc. They have maintained their culture. BUT, they have also integrated into our societies (Hold this thought on Canada for a bit).

Europeans define multiculturalism as a group of immigrants being segregated into ghettos. This is made abundantly clear if you look at the demographics of Europe, where the concentrations of immigrants are located. This is in fact the preferred [European] method of dealing with immigration. For Europeans it has always been us and them, nothing has changed in that regard. You have to understand (unless you are aware of it already), Europe hasn’t changed much over the centuries in terms of “elitism” and “feudalism”. A young man or woman in Canada or the US can start from cleaning toilets to become members of the Supreme Court, Government and other “high ranking” positions. In Europe, they are bred from birth to govern, whether they are on the left or the right of the political spectrum, it is inconceivable to climb the political ladder in Europe, although there have been exceptions, unless you are part of a group of elitists.

These elitists are the ones that make policy, anybody that deviates from the “norm” is attacked by the press with fervor. Tell me Finder, have you ever been to Europe? If you have, then you should know what I am talking about, if not, allow me to elaborate a bit. One is hard pressed to find dissenting opinions on critical issues anywhere in Europe and when there are a few dissenting voices, they get struck down and ridiculed by the rest of the media. Take the Iraq War for example, all of the European media was condemning the Iraq War. It is not important for our discussion whether or not the war was justified, what matters is, the lack of differing opinions on the subject. This is typical approach with any issue. Same for multiculturalism, their planned failed and nobody wants to address it because they are full of political correctness up their arse.

These elitists believed that immigrants would marry the “local” population and eventually become integrated. Didn’t happen. Because of “family reunification”. Immigration laws in many Western European countries permit a citizen or permanent resident to bring over sisters, brothers, aunts, uncles, husbands, wives you name it, they can bring them over. Not only did they not integrate, but they became more isolated by becoming more fundamentalists because what they see in Western Europe is an affront to their entire belief system. All women are whores, homosexuals should be summarily put to death, women’s rights are non-sense, they disobey they get beaten etc.
Do you really want to keep separate a religion that preaches these things? Islam means “submission” at least in its fundamentalist form it demands nothing less. They have been taught that they owe no deference to any non-believer, whether they are police officers, teachers or government, because in the eyes of God, no non-Muslim has a legitimate right to occupy a position of power over Muslims. They are an increasing threat in Europe and Europeans are starting to wake up, even the left parties have begun drawing the lines.

Now, a reference to the US. There are many Americans (black race) that refer to themselves as African-American, do you know why? Because they have YET to integrate into American society, any form of hyphenated American has not integrated. This was caused by, what else? Segregation. What is happening in Europe happened in the US 50 years ago, and they have learned nothing. The only difference here is, which makes it dangerous, is their fundamentalist religion.

Ok, I got tired, can’t type anymore. I'll get into my explanation of WWI and so forth tomorrow.

Oh my god. I can finally understand what you are saying and I can agree with it somewhat especially with what occured in France. But that doesn't deal with multi-culturalism that has to deal with what is occuring the mentality that occurs in Europe. And like you say in Canada and America then that shouldn't effect both countries as much. And finally, how does this European mentality do with a 'Muslim' threat when it is the mentality of the Europeans that have too change?

 

[India1989]

See every religion has a black sheep. For this we shouldn't blame the whole damn religoin.

 

[thomaska]

Here's another gem for the apologists of the religion of peace...

"Miss your prayers and you die"

http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__africa/&articleid=276425

Nice huh?

Apparently watching the World Cup can get you killed too...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/07/05/somalia.world.cup.ap/index.html

 

[dekhqonbacha]

Here's another gem for the apologists of the religion of peace...

"Miss your prayers and you die"

http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__africa/&articleid=276425

Nice huh?

Apparently watching the World Cup can get you killed too...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/07/05/somalia.world.cup.ap/index.html

Radical Islamic militia fighters in central Somalia shot and killed two people at the screening of a banned World Cup soccer ...

for radicals anything can be an excuse. You still cannot blame the whole Muslim population for some radicals in Somalia.

 

[escrayzee]

I'm an atheist and don't give a darn about what religions are 'suppose to be'...all love and hugs. What counts is what they are in the reality in today's world.. All this crap about Islam isn't really this and Christianity isn't really that isn't worth a pile of doo-doo when someone wants to set off bombs in my country and kill my family.

There are millions among the billion Muslims who want to kill my family and I don't really care if these millions are the real Muslims or not or 'how the Koran preaches murder but doesn't'. When someone wears the Muslim label and wants to set off a bomb and kill my children in the name of Allah, I don't give a rat's as about the theological debates. I want Muslims to show how they aren't going to hurt my family or I want them to stay away as far as possible.

I'm no longer accepting of the 'good ' Muslim declaring how they condemn terrorism and then add a 'but' after the comment. the backhand condoning of the actions of terrorist nutbars is not acceptable.

Thumbs up!! I'm on your side X 1000000

 

[Explicit_insinuendo]

Where do we get these new nutjobs.

Simple, there are bad parts of Islam, but go to Northern Ireland, the Catholic and the Protestants hate each other. Last time I checked they weren't Muslim.

Dah!

good point Jersay.
Now Saadia, i think you should get your facts right because in case you haven't noticed some people namely the Americans keep invading muslim countries and you're outta your mind if you're somehow opposed to the fact that muslims aren't cowardly enough to sit in their homes and watch the day go by while foreigners are destroying their countries for no apparent reason. The people you're calling bad are defending themselves.

 

[Sassylassie]

What about the Arab Extremist Muslims that have invaded Somalia and forced their Extreme Version of Islam down the Somalis throats, if Somalians don't practice these Mad Dogs' Version of Islam they slaughter them like Cattle. They have raged a "Holy War" in a Country that isn't theirs. Peaceful I don't think so. I could detail endless cases of Muslims killing Muslims and Christians for sport oh sorry in the name of Allah. It's not about the Americans it's about Muslim Extremist wanting the entire world to bend to their Fanatical Evil Ways, the US is just the sword to slow them down.

 

[Explicit_insinuendo]

Yeah well I don't see or hear about the people from Northern Ireland running around blowing up planes and plotting terrorist attacks on my country. Many of the worlds inner nations are experiencing inner strife. Yet, do we see it spilling over into the global arena?

Nut Job

Why dont you think about who actually is spilling it into the global arena?

 

[Colpy]

good point Jersay.
Now Saadia, i think you should get your facts right because in case you haven't noticed some people namely the Americans keep invading muslim countries and you're outta your mind if you're somehow opposed to the fact that muslims aren't cowardly enough to sit in their homes and watch the day go by while foreigners are destroying their countries for no apparent reason. The people you're calling bad are defending themselves.

Oh, Good Lord, another one!

The United States bombed the heck out of Serbs in Kosovo DEFENDING Muslims.

The United States went to war in 1991 against a secular state (Iraq) in DEFENCE of a Muslim state.

The United States is a close ally of Saudi Arabia, which is a Muslim state, and from where most of the 9-11 murderers originated.

The only Muslim state the USA invaded was Afghanistan, and ALL the Afghans (the Taliban) had to do was hand over those responsible for 9-11, and they could have merrily continued destroying priceless historical artifacts, hanging women for appearing in public unescorted, and whatever other nasty little perversions occured in their twisted little minds.

So please, try to maintain a grip on reality.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Oh, Good Lord, another one!

Yeah, they seem to be everywhere, Colpy. There's so much misinformation and disinformation and plain old ignorance floating around, it's pretty hard for most people to separate good from bad information. It takes a lot of effort to develop an informed opinion, and a lot of people aren't willing to make the effort. It's easier just to swallow some biased news sources that suit your prejudices or make stuff up you think you can get away with, like the claim that the U.S. keeps invading Islamic nations. I'm not entirely pleased with U.S. behaviour in recent years, but it's still important to get the facts right.

I'm constantly reminded of the banner at the top of my second favourite message board, The Straight Dope, at http://www.straightdope.com: "Fighting Ignorance Since 1973 (it's taking longer than we thought)."

 

[CDNBear]

The Islamic religion is not a tolerant religion. It is the only religion in existence that continues to cause dissention and strife in modern societies. Muslims can't even tolerate the different sects of Islam. So how do we determine that there are good muslims and bad ones. How do we know?

No it is not a tolerant religion, but neither WAS the Christian church of the past. You say they cause dissention nad strife in modern societies? The Vatican causes death and famine in third world countries, by continuing to shun the use of condoms and thus keeping the spread of AIDS alive and well, as well as, an alarming birth rate that the services nad food supply can not handle. In other words creating a pain way or life for no more then a quote from the "Good" book about not spilling the seed. The Vatican has killed more Christians and non-Christians, then the Islam-o-fascists ever have. And continue to do it with impunity.

 

[Explicit_insinuendo]

Oh, Good Lord, another one!

The United States bombed the heck out of Serbs in Kosovo DEFENDING Muslims.

The United States went to war in 1991 against a secular state (Iraq) in DEFENCE of a Muslim state.

The United States is a close ally of Saudi Arabia, which is a Muslim state, and from where most of the 9-11 murderers originated.

The only Muslim state the USA invaded was Afghanistan, and ALL the Afghans (the Taliban) had to do was hand over those responsible for 9-11, and they could have merrily continued destroying priceless historical artifacts, hanging women for appearing in public unescorted, and whatever other nasty little perversions occured in their twisted little minds.

So please, try to maintain a grip on reality.

Ok.nice speech. What are you trying to prove? The united states as you say, bombed the heck out of serbs in kosovo and went to war with iraq defending a muslim nation because they had thier own political agenda. Do you actually think they went to all that trouble because they had the muslims' best interests at heart? yeah right give me a break. And NO, the only muslim state the USA invaded wasn't Afghanistan. Last time i checked, Iraq was also a muslim country and as far as the facts go, Iraq was invaded for NO reason whatsoever and this invasion didn't do anything to improve the so-called "security" of the United States.
By the way, what does the US being a close ally of Saudi Arabia have anything to do anything?

good day

 

[Explicit_insinuendo]

Here's another gem for the apologists of the religion of peace...

"Miss your prayers and you die"

http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__africa/&articleid=276425

GREAT. another batch of lies seriuosly, i don't know when this is going to end. The quran in no way tells you to kill someone who doesn't pray. As a matter of fact, islam does not contrary to popular belief permit killing anyone for any reason unless its in self defense. I don't know where on earth whoever made this law got it from but they sure as hell didn't get it from the quran. Things are just getting blown out of proportion and i'm not surprised people like you have such an easy time believing it.

 

[BitWhys]

I don't believe in organized religion either. That's why I'm an Anglican.


ON EDIT:
where'd that crack about "spawn of satan" go?

oh well

 

[Explicit_insinuendo]

I totally agree. I am tired of the boo hoo outcry of how these terrorists are giving the 'good' muslims a bad name. I am sick and tired of these people coming into my country and failing to appreciate all the opprotunities that are available to them. They cower and hide in mosques and plot destruction of the very same country that is willing to help them. I don't even see many of them assimilating. Whats up with all the veils and crap these women wear. what the hell are they hiding. I may sound intolerant but hey thats is exactly how they are treating us. With intolerance.

who is "these" people? And if you're talking about pakistan, I wouldn't say they were helping "these" people. People like you don't know crap about "all" the veils or anything else muslim women wear and you sure as hell shouldn't care about what they're hiding because its none of your business.
You don't have to wear the veil if you don't want to, but i think i should reaffirm that whether other people wear it or not is absolutely, without a doubt none of your freakin' business.