Is there a God ?

ottawabill

Electoral Member
May 27, 2005
909
8
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Eastern Ontario
How absurd to ever think that all the creation of the universe and it's perfect balance is just a fluke. Is there a God, yes, where is he, right beside you..

We humans have a habit of dismissing what we find normal. We don't pay attention, It's like a baby in a womb..they have no idea there is something else out there even though it's right beside them. They don't even know they are being craddled by a living being..all they know is a warm wet world where they just happen (for some odd reason) to be living in.

Just look around you, there is life everywhere, it all fits together, it all works....how much more strange is it if nothing created it than if something did?
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
63
California
How absurd to ever think that all the creation of the universe and it's perfect balance is just a fluke. Is there a God, yes, where is he, right beside you..

We humans have a habit of dismissing what we find normal. We don't pay attention, It's like a baby in a womb..they have no idea there is something else out there even though it's right beside them. They don't even know they are being craddled by a living being..all they know is a warm wet world where they just happen (for some odd reason) to be living in.

Just look around you, there is life everywhere, it all fits together, it all works....how much more strange is it if nothing created it than if something did?

OttawaBill

I am totally with you on your essay - what I object to is humanity making the 'creator' seem more than is rational. I don't want to go on some mescaline trip to visualize my creator - to me the entity is within and is part of my and my life always.

What humans have created is far too complex for me. The rules of life are already within.
 

Minority Observer84

Theism Exorcist
Sep 26, 2006
368
5
18
The Capitol
How absurd to ever think that all the creation of the universe and it's perfect balance is just a fluke. Is there a God, yes, where is he, right beside you..

We humans have a habit of dismissing what we find normal. We don't pay attention, It's like a baby in a womb..they have no idea there is something else out there even though it's right beside them. They don't even know they are being craddled by a living being..all they know is a warm wet world where they just happen (for some odd reason) to be living in.

Just look around you, there is life everywhere, it all fits together, it all works....how much more strange is it if nothing created it than if something did?
Not a fluke but a known natural Phenomenon called natural selection .
 
This debate will never actually come to an end unless and until all of one side stop debating.
People find their own God, be He real or not. I personally believe that the stories surrounding each religion are the same (much like Star Wars and Eragon are the same), and are derived from ancient practice... there's actually some solid arguments out there that every mainstream religion is derived from Paganism.
But there's no infallible argument against God. People tend to say "Either we got here due to God, or we got here by evolution," and then they start to attack evolution. But evolution has strong evidence for it. The reason that there's no infallible argument against God is that the Universe EXISTS, and that something beyond our understanding, God, may or may not have created it. So God might exist, and thus one has the right to believe in Him. Such a being would also be omnipotent, due to His having created the Universe - everything, as we know it. So it would only make sense, if one believes in God, to attribute all of these things - afterlife, justice, power - to Him.
So it's pointless to attack God by defending evolution - it's part of the Universe, and so he would have created it as well. It's important to note that most of the Bible is comparable to most of every other holy text, which has their roots in astrology (there are many, many incredible similarities - I won't elaborate on them unless I'm asked, but you can do the research yourself), so the Bible wouldn't work all that well as an argument against God by contradiction or anything else - it can't really be trusted if it's about the cosmos (or it might not - God could have put the other texts here to "test our faith". Or maybe the ancient Egyptians really were worshipping the Judeo-Christian God, and He put the stars as they are.)

So there remains the question that, if answered, would resolve the issue: could a Universe exist without being created by God?
One would say that an outside force had to have acted in order to do it. There's M Theory, where the Big Bang is caused by parallel universes colliding...but then where do the parallel universes come from? There's another theory where extradimensional beings create the Universe, but they had to come from somewhere/thing/one. One of the scientific theories is that the Big Bang is caused by the ridiculous amount of energy released if the entire Universe were a perfect vacuum (one cubic centimeter of absolutely nothing has enough energy that, if condensed into matter, could fill up all of the observable Universe).

I figure since the question of God is more-or-less a question of how the Universe came to be, I might throw in my two cents:
The Universe is expanding. We have strong evidence of this (blue-shift, celestial movement, etc.) This means that it must have at some point reached an absolutely non-contractable point, at which it started its expansion. This is why we have the Big Bang theory. Then we have gravity and entropy and things like that, which seem to be acting to bring everything back together to that point.
Then there's special relativity. If there's gravity, time passes slower. Imagine at the point at which the entire Universe, everything - infinity, coexisted. The amount of gravity would be infinite, since it is everything possible within the limits of the Universe. Time would have been nonexistent, if this were the case, according to special relativity. If the Universe does come back together due to gravity, then time would essentially come to an end. So time and the Universe are one and the same...time ends when the Universe does, and the same goes for its beginning.
Infinite matter - and hence, infinite gravity - could come from the infinite energy that would occur if the entire Universe were a perfect vacuum. So isn't it conceivable that the Universe created itself, and that time came with it, and that at the end of time, the Universe will be as it once was, and will start again? If the Universe is the only thing that ever unfolds, since time starts and ends when it does, wouldn't that negate the existence of anything BUT the Universe?
This is probably why religious folk attack science to defend religion...according to it, the universe is self-fulfilling (if the above explanation is correct). But then, perhaps God created the mechanisms of quantum physics. Maybe it's that absolutely nothing, the lack of a presence, is actually inconceivable and impossible for the Universe to maintain. Maybe.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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I personally believe that the stories surrounding each religion are the same (much like Star Wars and Eragon are the same), and are derived from ancient practice... there's actually some solid arguments out there that every mainstream religion is derived from Paganism.
...It's important to note that most of the Bible is comparable to most of every other holy text, which has their roots in astrology (there are many, many incredible similarities - I won't elaborate on them unless I'm asked, but you can do the research yourself), ...

Religion is, ultimately, a human construct to attempt to explain God and the universe. Cultural similarities, due to a shared humanity, occur across every other area of humanity, so it's no surprise that they occur across religions as well.
 

look3467

Council Member
Dec 13, 2006
1,952
15
38
Northern California
DocDred

My reply in blue.

Originally Posted by look3467
Being purely spiritual is to totally deny the flesh. Unfortunately, we cannot attain that status while in the flesh, but we can be made perfect in the body of the one that was purely spiritual.

If you look at life as such it is truly a sad state of affair. The Great Master Jesus turned water into wine so they could party on!!!!

The meaning of the parable is a spiritual one which denotes that there is a better life than the one that exists.
The water representative of the human soul is one that can be turned into wine, meaning life, for the after life.
This wine also meaning that as the parable says, saving the best for the last is making the wine (Life) better than the original, one that lives on to eternity.

That one body was given in ransom for all souls, thus all souls being part of that one body.

To exist in the flesh is to experience the attributes of God in the midst of the opposition to God.

How does one's existence become an opposition to God by merely taken on the form God created. God's greatest attribute is God's ability to create, from your way of thinking of God the creator

Again, we must think in spiritual terms to understand spiritual things. Prior to the flesh, there was no opposition to anything for flesh did not exist.
Reference was made of the bible parable by you, so it is just as right for me to reference the bible too in my explanation.
The whole concept of the flesh as portrayed in the story of Adam and Eve was to show that the flesh had become as like god with the ability to know good and evil.
This ability given to mankind could only be given with a consequence and as such was also covered without fault to mankind by God Himself.
That consequence was spiritual separation resulting in death to the soul of mankind.
This death was not the fault of mankind but God’s.
He reconciled us back to Himself by freeing us from the penalty of eternal separation in one body.
That body being the body of Jesus.
Jesus paid the price and thus all mankind is saved by the body of Jesus.
Many don’t know it, and many will not know it, but all will know it at death of the flesh, for than will they see Him as He is: God!

The agent of God is the adversary by which all souls must experience in order to know who, what God is and who we are in Him.

We can deny God, a god or no god at all, but we can not of our own selves save who we are since we had no say so in how we came into being.

So, as for me, to know who and what God is, is to know who I am in Him. I than therefore exercise
Who I am in Him by demonstrating those attributes which Him requests.
But you deny your God's greatest gift, your very flesh
Denying the flesh means overcoming it. Not rejecting it.
True, the gift of the flesh is a great gift, but a greater gift is life apart from the flesh which only God can give upon recognition of it.
That----- He gave us revelation of and of which I speak.

Peace>>>AJ




 

china

Time Out
Jul 30, 2006
5,247
37
48
74
Ottawa ,Canada
Just curious....would you be happier if people didn't intellectualize about the world and make the effort to share their ideas?

Whether people intellectualize about the world ideas or not , that in its self has no effect on my happiness .Since when are you interested about my happiness MikeyDB ?
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
19,576
113
63
Vancouver Island
I suppose a god is whatever each person decides it is, in their own thoughts and life.
For me personally, I cherish our earth, it is where I came from and where I will go after death, so
I guess, for me, my earth is my god, as I can't relate to any of the existing ideas, re: god, that have been put
to me, from my childhood as a catholic student to the present.
 

smilingfish

Just a tiny fish
Dec 13, 2006
125
3
18
I believe there's an invisible force behind everything. It's non-emotional, it's unchangeable, and it's been there ever since and will be there forever.

That is not a god.
 
May 28, 2007
3,866
67
48
Honour our Fallen
How absurd to ever think that all the creation of the universe and it's perfect balance is just a fluke. Is there a God, yes, where is he, right beside you..

We humans have a habit of dismissing what we find normal. We don't pay attention, It's like a baby in a womb..they have no idea there is something else out there even though it's right beside them. They don't even know they are being craddled by a living being..all they know is a warm wet world where they just happen (for some odd reason) to be living in.

Just look around you, there is life everywhere, it all fits together, it all works....how much more strange is it if nothing created it than if something did?
you can have creation without actually having to have Someone create it ya know.....This god the creator is not the only game in town.....

What about the Buddhist concept of self created......

It's sort of like one huge mind creating a world of desire to get lost in.
Trouble is some of us are so poisoned from the realms of desire themselves we forgot what we really are and enlightened ones had to come here to tell us how to get back to Nirvanna.....

*snickers*
love the dumf edit hours after Curio's to prove some inane pointless sour grape...lol!!!
Dumf all ya gotta do is stick to the doggy and pot threads....you do very well over there.....
And stay away from political stuff for the whole nuke and melt mid eastern countries deal is scary...LOL!!!!!!!!
 

Minority Observer84

Theism Exorcist
Sep 26, 2006
368
5
18
The Capitol
I have a question for everyone does actually believe .
There are things we know about the beginning of time , things we do not know but theorise on based on fact .
Now if you were to throw that all away or constantly try to fit the world to what you've been taught how can there be growth ?
Forget that what i really want to know is how do you people draw the line logically speaking ?
For instance i cannot prove that god does not exist proving a negative is almost impossible so the same would apply to unicorns so how do you draw the line on what to believe or not ? The fact that god created the universe is about as factual as a herd of bouncing unicorns did ? How do you within yourselves logically settle this type of thing ?

P.S the idea of omnipotence is logically unrealistic (Ie If God has limitless powers then he must be able to create and perform acts at any scale including one he cannot meet himself ) Also the idea of omnipresence contradicts one of the most basic concepts in physics i e only one object can be at a specific point in space/time. Omniscience also creates an entire host of self contrasts .
Lets face it nothing can logically live up to any of these words it's like trying to do quantific math with infinity .
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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285
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I have a question for everyone does actually believe .
There are things we know about the beginning of time , things we do not know but theorise on based on fact .
Now if you were to throw that all away or constantly try to fit the world to what you've been taught how can there be growth ?
Forget that what i really want to know is how do you people draw the line logically speaking ?
For instance i cannot prove that god does not exist proving a negative is almost impossible so the same would apply to unicorns so how do you draw the line on what to believe or not ? The fact that god created the universe is about as factual as a herd of bouncing unicorns did ? How do you within yourselves logically settle this type of thing ?

Why would a belief in God necessarily mean ignoring physics or big bang theory? Why would there be a line to draw between physics, science, and God? Isn't it all part and parcel of the same thing?
 

Minority Observer84

Theism Exorcist
Sep 26, 2006
368
5
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The Capitol
Why would a belief in God necessarily mean ignoring physics or big bang theory? Why would there be a line to draw between physics, science, and God? Isn't it all part and parcel of the same thing?
Definitely the bible , Quran and the Torah never say god created the universe just earth , The big bang theory explains alternately the creation of the universe so some theists now argue that god is the initial burst of energy that triggered the big bang which is totally in contradiction of genesis and the creation stories in the Quran .
The point I'm making is people try to find a middle ground to sound somewhat reasonable but according to their books life was created in it's present form and that humanity was created as is in god's image . (This contradicts biological facts so badly i'd need a book to highlight them and i'am not even a biologist !)
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
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Definitely the bible , Quran and the Torah never say god created the universe just earth , The big bang theory explains alternately the creation of the universe so some theists now argue that god is the initial burst of energy that triggered the big bang which is totally in contradiction of genesis and the creation stories in the Quran .
The point I'm making is people try to find a middle ground to sound somewhat reasonable but according to their books life was created in it's present form and that humanity was created as is in god's image . (This contradicts biological facts so badly i'd need a book to highlight them and i'am not even a biologist !)

The Bible was written before human thinking could understand the universe. And belief in God does not require one to believe in strict interpretations of any human texts. Frankly, it doesn't require one to even belong to any religion.
 

Minority Observer84

Theism Exorcist
Sep 26, 2006
368
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The Capitol
The Bible was written before human thinking could understand the universe.
My point exactly , if it is indeed a holy text how do you explain it's limitations ?
But beyond that if there is no proof for god and we agree that the the bible/quran/torah are not holy divine texts how do you logically as a reasonable person draw the line between what to believe or not why do you not believe in Fairies for instance ? pagan society believed in them and they gave tribute to them but we have no proof they exist or ever existed .
Without logic and science the doors to superstition are wide open and you could assume anything and hence by definition everything exists .
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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My point exactly , if it is indeed a holy text how do you explain it's limitations ?

Its limitations are simple to explain... its limitations are human. No ancient religion could have been written for YOU... it would have been written for the people who were receiving it THEN. Simple. But, it doesn't change the fact that belief in religion, and belief in God, are not the same thing.


But beyond that if there is no proof for god and we agree that the the bible/quran/torah are not holy divine texts how do you logically as a reasonable person draw the line between what to believe or not why do you not believe in Fairies for instance ? pagan society believed in them and they gave tribute to them but we have no proof they exist or ever existed .
Without logic and science the doors to superstition are wide open and you could assume anything and hence by definition everything exists .

We don't agree that they're not holy texts, but I'll follow along with your line of thinking....

People have to draw their own lines in belief, and define for themselves what their requirements for evidence are. Fairies were physical creatures. Given what I know of science, any physical creature which is supposed to have existed, I find it reasonable that there would be proof of. God is not a physical creature. The lack of physical evidence is thus, not a proof of His non-existence. But it doesn't mean I would believe in fairies, leprachauns, or unicorns simply because I believe in God.
 

Minority Observer84

Theism Exorcist
Sep 26, 2006
368
5
18
The Capitol
Its limitations are simple to explain... its limitations are human. No ancient religion could have been written for YOU... it would have been written for the people who were receiving it THEN. Simple. But, it doesn't change the fact that belief in religion, and belief in God, are not the same thing.
We don't agree that they're not holy texts, but I'll follow along with your line of thinking....People have to draw their own lines in belief, and define for themselves what their requirements for evidence are. Fairies were physical creatures. Given what I know of science, any physical creature which is supposed to have existed, I find it reasonable that there would be proof of. God is not a physical creature. The lack of physical evidence is thus, not a proof of His non-existence. But it doesn't mean I would believe in fairies, leprachauns, or unicorns simply because I believe in God.
I disagree if it was a text from a perfect being it would apply to everyone it should be 100% sound scientifically , we should not get concepts such as democracy , abolishment of slavery or equal rights from people god seems to be quite comfortable with slavery in all three books perhaps because the people of the time were comfortable with it , in other words it reflects the world as they saw and accepted it in other words not a divine text but an attempt by primitive human minds to understand and explain the world around them .
Now as for your defense that god is not a physical creature what is he ? Remeber god is suppoused to have created adam in his own image but if he is not a physical creature what is he ?
Here is the point to which you say he's a spiritual creature a kind of creature that we have no evidence of , fairies are also mystical and spiritual creatures i'am not saying you nesscessarily believe in fairies i'am saying that if you believe in god how do you logically make the distinction between him and fairies or Zeus for that matter . Logic i would hope is universal so i'am assuming any thinking person would have a logical reason for dismissing fairies as myth but accepting god as fact .
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
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Now as for your defense that god is not a physical creature what is he ? Remeber god is suppoused to have created adam in his own image but if he is not a physical creature what is he ?
Here is the point to which you say he's a spiritual creature a kind of creature that we have no evidence of , fairies are also mystical and spiritual creatures i'am not saying you nesscessarily believe in fairies i'am saying that if you believe in god how do you logically make the distinction between him and fairies or Zeus for that matter . Logic i would hope is universal so i'am assuming any thinking person would have a logical reason for dismissing fairies as myth but accepting god as fact .


'...god is supposed to have created adam in his own image...' Still you are looking at disproving God by pointing out flaws in religion. Even if every religion on Earth is false, God can still exist. The two are not the same thing.

As for where the distinction is drawn between God and fairies.

God is a universal sense. God runs through almost every last culture, in one expression or another. People who can sense a deeper dimension to the universe explain this 'god', through limited human language and concepts.

This is not true of physical concepts such as fairies and unicorns.
 

look3467

Council Member
Dec 13, 2006
1,952
15
38
Northern California
I have a question for everyone does actually believe .
There are things we know about the beginning of time , things we do not know but theorise on based on fact .
Now if you were to throw that all away or constantly try to fit the world to what you've been taught how can there be growth ?
Forget that what i really want to know is how do you people draw the line logically speaking ?
For instance i cannot prove that god does not exist proving a negative is almost impossible so the same would apply to unicorns so how do you draw the line on what to believe or not ? The fact that god created the universe is about as factual as a herd of bouncing unicorns did ? How do you within yourselves logically settle this type of thing ?

P.S the idea of omnipotence is logically unrealistic (Ie If God has limitless powers then he must be able to create and perform acts at any scale including one he cannot meet himself ) Also the idea of omnipresence contradicts one of the most basic concepts in physics i e only one object can be at a specific point in space/time. Omniscience also creates an entire host of self contrasts .
Lets face it nothing can logically live up to any of these words it's like trying to do quantific math with infinity .

To sum it all up into one word: FAITH!

I gave this story before once about this tight rope walker who after drawing a large crowd walked across Niagara falls across and back without falling. Then He did it again with a wheel barrow there and back.
When on the third time he asked the crowd whether they believed he could go across there and back with another human being in the wheel barrow.
The response was spontaneously enthusiastically yes! you can! The crowd was still cheering when he asked: Do I have a volunteer?
Suddenly the crow drew silent.

Where then was the faith in answer to all the accolades of confidence?

God exists only through faith in Him and none other.

I have faith in Him, thus He exists!

Peace>>>AJ