Is Saddam innocent?

moghrabi

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May 25, 2004
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Well said pasta and Rev.

As for Colby boy. You said Saddam held kids as young as 2 years old. He may have. I asked you before to support your arguments with concrete links but so far`haven't produced an pint of info except what you heard on FOX news and you are repeating it here like a parrot.
 

moghrabi

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May 25, 2004
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The Incubator Lie

With the video from Jordan showing a woman making shocking accusations, it is worth recalling the last time when a woman was shown on TV making shocking accusations.

The day after Iraq invaded Kuwait, the Kuwaitis living in the US hired the public relations firm Hill and Knowlton - a job worth $1 million a month. This was the biggest ever contract in the history of public relations to improve the image of their corrupt, oil-rich regime.

The story of how Iraqi troops, in the first days of the invasion, went into Al-Adan hospital, tore the sick babies from incubators and left them on the cold floor to die was graphically told to Congress on November 1990 before the crucial vote to send US troops (passed by about 5 votes).

What the audience didn't know however was that the 15-year old girl who made the moving, tearful testimony was none other than Niyirah al-Sabah - daughter of the US Ambassador to Kuwait. She had allegedly worked as a volunteer in the maternity ward of the hospital. But nurses who live in the two story white building opposite the hospital in Kuwait City claimed that they had never seen the girl before in their life.

The entire move towards the Gulf War had thus been motivated by a blatant lie. The girl had been "trained" by Hill and Knowlton. The renowned international human rights group Amnesty International took out full-page newspaper spreads to publicise the babies incident. It had unwittingly (and not for the first time) transformed itself from a charity to a propaganda tool. Andrew Whitley of Middle East Watch described the story as a fabrication but it took months for the truth to come out. President Bush mentioned the incubator incident in five of his speeches and seven senators referred to them in speeches backing a pro-war resolution.

More on the topic:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/incubatorlie.html
 

Blackleaf

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Oct 9, 2004
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Saddam's crimes.

Unspeakable Acts: Mass Murder



Photo by Thomas Hartwell
Aweda Abed Al-Amer, 48, grieves over two members of her family found in a mass grave in Musayib, 75 KM SW of Baghdad. She lost 5 members of her family including her husband, son and 3 nephews after an uprising against the Iraqi government in 1991.The bodies wrapped in linen shrouds are being held in a makeshift morgue in a youth center for possible identification.

"Now, 12 years later, Mr. Shaati cannot remember if the women and children beside him screamed as the bullets hit, or whether the men in the hole moaned as they died. He only recalls a moment of hollow silence when the soldiers stopped shooting. Then came the throaty rumble of a backhoe and the thud of wet earth dropping on bodies. He survived but saw hundreds of other innocents buried in another of Saddam Hussein's anonymous mass graves."
-- The New York Times, June 2, 2003

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"The soldiers took them out in groups of 100 to 150 people. When his time came, Mr. Shaati was ordered to remove his T-shirt and rip it into strips that were tied over his eyes and around his hands. The prisoners were herded onto a bus, everyone holding on with their teeth to the shirt of the person in front of them. When they arrived at a field - Mr. Shaati is still not sure where - their grave had already been prepared. 'They led us down an incline into a wide long hole,' he said. 'It was quiet. No one fell or even cried. I was positioned very close to the corner, maybe second or third from the wall. Then they started shooting. Somehow I wasn't hit. By then, I guess, they didn't go to the trouble of shooting all of us.' After the grave was covered, Mr. Shaati, alive but choking on dirt, wormed his way out of the ditch. He punched through the earthen blanket with his head, and worked himself free of the cloth straps. Gulping the cold night air, he knew that all his soldierly ideas about honor and country counted for nothing."
-- The New York Times, June 2, 2003

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"The executions took place two or three times on most days, Arjawi said. Each time, between 100 and 150 blindfolded people, their hands and sometimes feet bound, were led into pits about 10 feet deep. Gunmen then fired into the pit, often for several minutes, Arjawi said. A bulldozer then pushed dirt onto the bodies, sometimes burying or crushing people who had survived the volley and were trying to climb out."
-- Los Angeles Times, May 14, 2003

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Photo by Thomas Hartwell
Iraqis search for their relatives and friends among victims found in a mass grave in Musayib, 75 KM SW of Baghdad. The victims are thought to be from among some 2,000 persons reported missing after the 1991 uprising against the Iraqi government. The bodies wrapped in linen shrouds are being held in a makeshift morgue in a youth center.

"[J]ust to see the landscape of bones mixed with clothing, skulls strewn in the splay of human detritus and other remains is chilling. At first, it just seems like hundreds of bundles of clothes have been laid out on the dikes and roads that cut through the marshes here.

"Then the traces of human anatomy appear. A femur from a leg, a humerus from an arm, a shard of pelvis, and skull peeking out from a gray blanket that someone assembling remains laid down. The bundles reveal themselves as the former repositories of living human flesh, before the gunfire sent them on their journey into the marsh.

"'It's a kind of hell out there,' said Mr. Nasir, who no longer plants onions where so many bodies have been desecrated. 'We have always known that there were people here, but we couldn't take them,' he said. 'We knew our Muslim brothers were not buried properly, but we couldn't say a word.'"
-- The New York Times, May 14, 2003

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Sally Hodgson - Department of State
A sign of mourning posted recently outside a house in a neighborhood a few kilometers from a mass grave southeast of Basrah. The sign in Arabic reads: "Matar Jaber Ali was killed by Saddam Hussein and the Baath Party in 1991." Matar's brothers put up the sign outside their house after they dug up a robe at the mass grave, which they believe their brother was wearing when he disappeared in 1991. Similar signs can be seen posted throughout southern Iraq, often with printed photos of people missing or killed by Saddam's brutal regime.

"'This is my brother,' declared Munther Taffuk after examining the freshly exhumed corpse, relieved to a point that he had found his missing sibling after a two-year search. Munther then moved in for a closer look. 'My God,' he screamed. 'They took out his eyes.' He then pulled two matted pieces of cotton wool from the eye sockets of his little brother's skull and wept.

"His sister, Manal, cried openly as she said her younger brother, Muthfer, simply vanished without trace two years ago. 'My God, look what they did. This is my brother, he did nothing wrong.'"
-- Times of Oman, April 22, 2003

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"The skeletal remains on display Monday showed signs of physical trauma. Some still had faded bandages tied around the eye sockets and black cloth binding the feet. Several skulls had large holes on one side or were crushed in the back. In each open wooden coffin, the bones were carefully wrapped in white cloth, surrounded by scraps of hair, bits of teeth and bones. The visible evidence of their demise drove scores of black-clad women to wailing and men to weep."
-- Associated Press, May 12, 2003

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Photo by Thomas Hartwell
Iraqi workers dig for the remains of Iraqis from a mass grave in Musayib, 75 KM SW of Baghdad. The victims are thought to be from among some 2,000 persons reported missing after the 1991 uprising against the Iraqi government.

"The grave was no more than a long trench, with dirt shoveled over the men executed for their role in the uprising here in 1999 after the killing of a prominent Shiite cleric, Muhammad Sadiq al-Sadr, said relatives who viewed the remains today.

"On March 25, 1999, a shepherd in the desert about 45 miles north of Basra saw men being brought by Baath Party trucks to an open clearing, said Ali Hassan, 20. The shepherd said he saw a backhoe dig a long trench and the men, blindfolded, were lined up in front of the ditch. Then they were shot."
-- The New York Times, May 12, 2003

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"In May 1991, having served in the Persian Gulf War with the Marines, I volunteered for further duty in Provide Comfort -- a joint military operation designed to assist in the relocation of Kurdish refugees into northern Iraq. Assigned to the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit, I was flown to the city of Zakho, where the unit was establishing its headquarters in and around an abandoned Iraqi divisional headquarters building....

"As the Marines began digging defensive positions and putting up tents, a grisly discovery was made. Heavy equipment had unearthed myriad body parts; hands, arms, legs, etc., were uncovered in what was determined to have been a mass grave. Most telling among this evidence of inhumanity was an infant's sandal.

"The body parts were reburied immediately after their discovery, but for many days the stench of rotting flesh lingered in the air until all the remains were located and reburied. It was later learned from the Kurds that about 70 of their tribesmen had been taken into this Iraqi divisional HQ and that none had come out alive. The victims were brutally tortured and executed, their remains then thrown into a common grave."
-- James Zumwalt, op-ed in The Washington Post, April 30, 2003

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"Near Kirkuk, U.S. military forces discovered about 1,500 unmarked graves last week near a military base and industrial park. Officials believe they are the remains of victims of Saddam's repression of ethnic minorities, including Iraqi Kurds. Tens of thousands of Kurdish men disappeared under Saddam and were killed, according to human rights groups."

"Beth Ann Toupin, an Iraq specialist with Amnesty International, said it is still early to know the magnitude of rights abuses under Saddam. 'There's probably much more to be found,' she said, noting that hidden prisons may be discovered. 'And what's new to us is that now people care.'"
-- The Washington Times, April 23, 2003

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"The Baath regime has gone and now we can talk freely with you. They [the corpses] are all political. Ten to 15 bodies would arrive at a time from the Abu Ghraib prison and we would bury them here. The last corpse interred was number 993."
-- Mohymeed Aswad, manager of Baghdad cemetery, Agence France-Presse, April 21, 2003

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"The civilians were hanged. Sometimes a soldier would come through and they were all shot. I could distinguish them by their uniforms. This grave belongs to a woman. She was hanged. There are another five cemeteries in Baghdad with secret gravesites so in this city alone there are about 6,000 (political) corpses."
-- Gravedigger at a Baghdad cemetery, Agence France-Presse, April 21, 2003

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"I have spoken to a prison officer who worked there. He had no idea how many people were killed in that prison but he said it must have been thousands. In one corner of that prison outside the walls of an inner secure area we found relatives grieving over an open grave where they had found a number of bodies. Bodies who have had their hands tied behind their backs - they had been shot in the head.

"It is our understanding that these people had been rounded up for the simple crime of having a satellite mobile telephone. As such they were suspected of being American spies. They were shot in the dying days of the regime even though those who shot them must have known that the end was up."
-- Tim Rogers, ITV News (UK), reporting from Baghdad on bodies found in a prison run by the Iraqi Ministry of Social Affairs, April 22, 2003
 

Blackleaf

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Unspeakable Acts: Mutilation

"Uday's physical ailments seemed to heighten his sadistic tendencies. According to his chief bodyguard, when Uday learned that one of his close comrades, who knew of his many misdeeds, was planning to leave Iraq, he invited him to his 37th-birthday party and had him arrested. An eyewitness at the prison where the man was held says members of the Fedayeen grabbed his tongue with pliers and sliced it off with a scalpel so he could not talk. A maid who cleaned one of Uday's houses says she once saw him lop off the ear of one of his guards and then use a welder's torch on his face."
-- Time, May 25, 2003

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"Thousands of people are missing in Iraq, victims of Saddam Hussein's dictatorship, but a more visible legacy are the parts that are missing from people who survived. Missing eyes, ears, toenails and tongues mark those who fell into the hands of Mr. Hussein's powerful security services."
-- The New York Times, April 24, 2003

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"Farris Salman is one of the last victims of Mr. Hussein's rule. His speech is slurred because he is missing part of his tongue. Black-hooded paramilitary troops, the Fedayeen Saddam, run by Mr. Hussein's eldest son, Uday, pulled it out of his mouth with pliers last month, he said, and sliced it off with a box cutter. They made his family and dozens of his neighbors watch.

"...Salman was blindfolded and bundled into a van. Residents of his neighborhood say the van arrived in the afternoon with an escort of seven trucks carrying more than a hundred black-uniformed fedayeen wearing black masks that only showed their eyes. They rounded up neighbors for what was billed as a rally; Mr. Salman's mother was ordered to bring a picture of Mr. Hussein. Two men held Mr. Salman's arms and head steady, and pointed a gun to his temple. Another man with a video camera recorded the scene. 'I was standing and they told me to stick my tongue out or they would shoot me, and so I did. It was too quick to be painful but there was a lot of blood.' The fedayeen stuffed his mouth with cotton and took him to a local hospital, where he got five stitches, no painkiller and was returned to prison."
-- The New York Times, April 24, 2003

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"... Anwar Abdul Razak, remembers when a surgeon kissed him on each cheek, said he was sorry and cut his ears off. Razak, then 21 years old, had been swept up during one of Saddam Hussein's periodic crackdowns on deserters from the Army. Razak says he was innocently on leave at the time, but no matter; he had been seized by some Baath Party members who earned bounties for catching Army deserters. At Basra Hospital, Razak's ears were sliced off without painkillers. He said he was thrown into jail with 750 men, all with bloody stumps where their ears had been. 'They called us Abu [Arabic for father] Earless,' recalls Razak, whose fiancee left him because of his disfigurement.

"No one is sure how many men were mutilated during that particular spasm of terror, but from May 17 to 19, 1994, all the available surgeons worked shifts at all of Basra's major hospitals, lopping off ears. (One doctor who refused was shot.) Today, Dr. Jinan al-Sabagh, an administrator at Basra Teaching Hospital, insists that the victims numbered only '70 or 80,' but he'd prefer not to talk about it. He says the ear-chopping stopped before his own surgery rotation came up. 'I want to forget about all this. I vowed I would never do it. I said I am a surgeon, not a butcher....'"
-- Newsweek, April 28, 2003

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"He described how, clad in black garb that covered all but his eyes, he had often meted out sentences in the street, in front of a victim's family and horrified onlookers. Guarded by armed colleagues, he used to tie up and blindfold the accused. One of his men held the detainee's head in a firm grip. Another forced open the mouth.

"Ali would then draw out a pair of pliers and a sharp knife. Gripping the tongue with pliers, he would slice it up with the knife, tossing severed pieces into the street. "'Those punished were too terrified to move, even though they knew I was about to chop off their tongue,' said Ali in his matter-of-fact voice. 'They would just stand there, often praying and calling out for Saddam and Allah to spare them. By then it was too late.

"'I would read them out the verdict and cut off their tongue without any form of anaesthetic. There was always a lot of blood. Some offenders passed out. Others screamed in pain. They would then be given basic medical assistance in an ambulance which would always come with us on such punishment runs. Then they would be thrown in jail.'"
-- Fedayeen Saddam member interviewed in The Sunday Times (London), April 20, 2003

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"Dr. Jinan Al Sabagh, a surgeon at Basra's Teaching Hospital, remembers the day in 1994 when the Baath Party came to the hospital with groups of men who were said to be deserters. The doctors were told to slice off the men's ears.

"'It was definitely obligatory,' said Al Sabagh, a gentle man in his 60s who seemed close to tears as he struggled to describe what happened those three days. 'If you didn't, you would have the same thing done to you.

"'They made four groups of doctors, one for each day,' Al Sabagh explained. "I was in the fourth group. One doctor here refused and they said if you didn't do it we will do the same to you. He did it.'"
-- Newsday, April 21, 2003

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"Ferass Adnan is a 23-year-old trader who speaks with difficulty these days now that part of his tongue is missing. Some months ago he got into a fight in a market in northern Baghdad and was overheard insulting Saddam as the 'son of a dog'. A policeman tried to arrest him, but Adnan fled.

"Within hours, Iraqi secret police agents arrived at Adnan's home and, failing to find him, took away his uncle, brother, and two cousins. They were thrown in jail and tortured with electric shocks.

"It was only a matter of days before the regime's ubiquitous security spies caught up with Adnan in the suburbs of Baghdad. He was jailed and then, on March 5, turned over to the specialists of Ali's punishment squad. Adnan was taken back to his father's home in north Baghdad, where his entire family was ordered to gather outside the local coffee house.

"'His hands were tied and his eyes blindfolded,' the young man's father, Adnan Duleimi, recalled last week. 'I had not seen my son since they had arrested him. I tried to pay for his release. I lost all my savings, handing everything I had to corrupt security officers who promised to help but only took my money. There was nothing I could do. I had to watch in silence as they took a knife to my son's tongue. Had I said a word we would all have been killed.'"
-- The Sunday Times (London), April 20, 2003

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"One of Ali's fellow fedayeen lost his tongue simply for repeating how he had heard of a man who had accused Uday of bringing shame on the Iraqi people for dressing in multi-coloured shirts – which, according to the critic, made him look like a woman.

"'There was no mild form of criticism when it came to Saddam, Uday or the regime,' said Ali. 'Any critical comment, even to say that the president looked tired in a speech, was enough to risk having one's tongue cut off by us.'"
-- Interview with a member of the Fedayeen Saddam in The Sunday Times (London), April 20, 2003

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"Kadhim Sabbit al-Datajji, 61, a resident of the poor Shiite neighborhood known as Saddam City under Mr. Hussein, said his trouble began when the eldest of his seven sons became old enough to join the Baath Party, but did not. 'Some Baathists in the neighborhood began asking why no one in my family was a party member and saying that with so many children, my family could cause trouble,' he said. 'They asked, "Why don't you or your sons join? We think you are in an opposition party."'

"He now has a walleyed stare to show for eight years in prison. He is quick to pop out his glass eye for a visitor - and to tell of how he lost the real one to torture."
-- The New York Times, April 24, 2003

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"Doctors gave him an injection and he lost consciousness, he said. When he awoke, the right side of his head was wrapped in bandages. It was Sept. 15, 1994. 'I started crying,' Mr. Ghanem said. 'I felt crippled. I felt oppressed. I hated Saddam with all of my heart, but I didn't know what to do.'

"He was sent to prison where he said he saw hundreds of others missing one ear. Many, like Mr. Ghanem, had inflamed wounds.

"His mother came every Friday, selling off household appliances to buy painkillers and antibiotics for her son. Others were less fortunate. Mr. Ghanem described a medieval scene in which delirious and dying inmates lay on the prison's dirt floor screaming from pain. 'The right side of some of the men's heads were puffed up like red balloons,' he said. Two of his friends died from infections.

"'Saddam, God curse him, treated my son like an animal,' said Mr. Ghanem's weeping mother. 'Only animals have their ears cut off.'"
-- The New York Times, April 24, 2003
 

#juan

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Is Saddam innocent?

Given the nature of Saddam Hussein and the world he lived/lives in, the answer has to be a comparative one. According to some Americans, at one time, Saddam was, figuratively, a fair haired boy. Using American chemical warfare technology, Saddam killed a lot of Iranians, who were, at that time, most "unfair-haired", in the eyes of the Americans. After Saddam's usefulness to the Americans dwindled, the Americans sucked him into the first gulf war with a doublecross about as sleasy as any I've seen. Saddam was certainly as "innocent as G.W. Bush. Saddam was as "innocent as Bush senior. Saddam was no doubt as "innocent" as LBJ, or Nixon, and Saddam was no doubt as innocent as other Arab leaders. I won't go into the American led sanctions after the first gulf war that probably Killed as many people as Saddam ever did but back to the question. Was Saddam innocent? He was likely as innocent as most of his peers, and I am sure, at least as innocent as the contempory American leaders during his time. If there is a reason to hang Saddam, there are many reasons to hang a few of the highest ranking members of several American administrations
 

Colpy

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Thank you Blackleaf!

This is a war of liberation, whether or not Saddam had WMDs.

I personally think Bush honestly believed there were WMDs. I think he, and his administration were amazed that none were found.

Let me toss this out; If Bush knew there were NO WMDs in Iraq, and if he is as devious and as evil as you all like to make him out to be, why did he not plan a massive "discovery" of say, mobile biological weapons labs, or buried stocks of chemical weapons?

Such a deception would have been extremely easy to pull off.

I think Bush is a basically good man, in a little over his head. He has no choice now but to ride the tiger.

BTW, the quickest and best way to suppress the insurrection, in a wholly strategic sense, would be to cut off aid and support by invading Syria.

Thus destroying another of the world's great evils.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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Is Saddam innocent?

Given the nature of Saddam Hussein and the world he lived/lives in, the answer has to be a comparative one. According to some Americans, at one time, Saddam was, figuratively, a fair haired boy. Using American chemical warfare technology, Saddam killed a lot of Iranians, who were, at that time, most "unfair-haired", in the eyes of the Americans. After Saddam's usefulness to the Americans dwindled, the Americans sucked him into the first gulf war with a doublecross about as sleasy as any I've seen. Saddam was certainly as "innocent as G.W. Bush. Saddam was as "innocent as Bush senior. Saddam was no doubt as "innocent" as LBJ, or Nixon, and Saddam was no doubt as innocent as other Arab leaders. I won't go into the American led sanctions after the first gulf war that probably Killed as many people as Saddam ever did but back to the question. Was Saddam innocent? He was likely as innocent as most of his peers, and I am sure, at least as innocent as the contempory American leaders during his time. If there is a reason to hang Saddam, there are many reasons to hang a few of the highest ranking members of several American administrations
 

Colpy

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Juan said:

"Using American chemical warfare technology, Saddam killed a lot of Iranians"

Do you have any evidence of this? Not that Saddam killed a lot of Iranians, but that he did it with American technology.

Back after Iran grasbbed American hostages, the Yanks saw Hussein as the lesser of two evils. SillY? Yep. But I hardly think they saw him as a fair-haired boy.

I saw an article once that listed all US aid to Iraq as coming to something close to 20 million dollars, most of which was in spare parts,etc.

The Germans sold them chemical weapons technology. The grand total of German, French, and Chinese weapons sales to Irag were in the tens of BILLIONS!
 

FredBass

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Nov 13, 2005
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Re: RE: Is Saddam innocent?

moghrabi said:
Well said pasta and Rev.

As for Colby boy. You said Saddam held kids as young as 2 years old. He may have. I asked you before to support your arguments with concrete links but so far`haven't produced an pint of info except what you heard on FOX news and you are repeating it here like a parrot.

Scott Ritter

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,351165,00.html

You've spoke about having seen the children's prisons in Iraq. Can you describe what you saw there?

The prison in question is at the General Security Services headquarters, which was inspected by my team in Jan. 1998. It appeared to be a prison for children — toddlers up to pre-adolescents — whose only crime was to be the offspring of those who have spoken out politically against the regime of Saddam Hussein. It was a horrific scene. Actually I'm not going to describe what I saw there because what I saw was so horrible that it can be used by those who would want to promote war with Iraq, and right now I'm waging peace.
 

Reverend Blair

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Apr 3, 2004
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This is a war of liberation, whether or not Saddam had WMDs.

That, my friend, is a crock of shit.

This was a war for oil...not to keep it cheap in the US, but for geo-political control and the bank accounts of the American oil cartel.

Bush is not concerned by tyranny...if he was he wouldn't deal with Islam Karimov or the brutal House of Saud. He is not concerned with freedom...if he were he would speak out against oppression in countries that he calls friends. He is not concerned with democracy...if he were he would not try to to depose democratically elected leaders in foreign countries, nor would he prop up undemocratic regimes. He is not concerned with human rights...if he were he would not permit torture, would not imprison the innocent, and would take issue with those that do.

George Bush is concerned only with his money and his own peculiar religion. He is willing to see others die for both. He is a war criminal as well as a common criminal.
 

GL Schmitt

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Mar 12, 2005
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Whether Saddam Hussein is guilty of the charges for which he is being tried, whether the present court has the right to try him, whether the laws being invoked are applicable, or whether some legalistic loophole exists which should set him free, is immaterial to me. I feel confident that, whatever I may do, the court, as constituted, is about to find Hussein guilty, and demand his life.

If Saddam Hussein surrenders his life to the judgement of an improperly conducted trial, it is, no doubt, a miscarriage of justice, and one really should oppose erroneous trials.

The first reason to oppose an invalid trial, is to insure that an innocent man does not pay for a crime which he did not commit, and secondly, to insure that a guilty man does not go free.

Undoubtedly, Saddam Hussein’s trial is irregular. That Hussein stands alone in the dock while many of his enablers watch from positions of safely is undoubtedly a travesty. In no sense, however, could a guilty verdict be construed as a miscarriage of justice, for only through the most cynical exercises in sophistry could Saddam Hussein ever be considered innocent.

With that understood, I oppose Hussein’s trial on principle, but in a world full of injustice, Saddam Hussein’s irregular trial is so far down on my list of priorities as to be practically nonexistent.
 

Reverend Blair

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Apr 3, 2004
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He is inoocent of the charges being laid against him though...what he did was not against Iraqi law at the time that he did it.

That doesn't mean that he's innocent, thaat means that a kangaroo court has been set up to keep the real facts from coming out because those facts are extremely inconvenient to those who "arrested" Saddam in the first place.

I'm not really that concerned about justice for Saddam, but I am concerned about justice.
 

Ocean Breeze

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George Bush is concerned only with his money and his own peculiar religion. He is willing to see others die for both. He is a war criminal as well as a common criminal.

indeed. and should be tried in the docket next to SH. They have more similarities than differences.. :evil:

both worship the religion of POWER,GREED, WEALTH and KILLING. for same. That is the only real religion bush adheres to. Wasn't it his Power 'god" that told him to invade Iraq??? sheesh..

trying them both.........would then mean some genuine justice..
 

Ocean Breeze

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Quote:
This is a war of liberation, whether or not Saddam had WMDs.

of course it is.. :evil: ..... the liberation of many innocents lives... Just as SH is alleged to have liberated many from their lives........the US. is following suit.....only under the guise of a different lie. :evil: ......and with more sophisticated weapons. A little torture along the way has liberated lives too.

SH -Torture.

US-Torture.

SH -dead bodies .....en masse

US.....dead bodies -en masse.

.............and the similarities unfold ...

the difference might lie in the motive.
 

pastafarian

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Oct 25, 2005
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Colpy asked:
Using American chemical warfare technology, Saddam killed a lot of Iranians"

Do you have any evidence of this? Not that Saddam killed a lot of Iranians, but that he did it with American technology.

Here's a summary of some of the evidence:
Last month the Iraq Weapons Inventory included a long list of Western and U.S. companies (Union Carbide, Honeywell, Dupont, SpectraPhysics, Bechtel are some mentioned in “The Nation”, 1/13/2003) that supplied Saddam with deadly and dual-use material. Hoping to disguise its own culpability in Iraq's past war crimes, the U.S. suppressed the list, but the dossier was leaked to a German newspaper, “Die Tageszeitung”.

More information trickled onto the back pages of “The New York Times” and “The Washington Post”. The main facts are no longer in dispute. In violation of the Geneva Protocol of 1925 (which outlaws chemical warfare), the Reagan-Bush administration authorized the sale of poisonous chemicals and deadly biological viruses, from anthrax to bubonic plague, throughout the '80s. In 1982, while Saddam Hussein constructed his machinery of war, Reagan and Bush removed Iraq from the State Department list of terrorist states.

According to newly declassified documents mentioned in “The Washington Post Weekly Edition” (1/6-12/2003), Iraq was already using chemical weapons on an "almost daily basis" when Donald Rumsfeld met with Saddam Hussein in 1983, consolidating the U.S.-Iraq military alliance.

Subsequently, the Pentagon supplied logistical and military support; U.S. banks provided billions of dollars in credits; and the C.I.A., using a Chilean conduit, increased Saddam's supply of cluster bombs. U.S. companies also supplied steel tubes and chemical substances, the types of material for which the Security Council is now searching.

As late as 1989 and 1990, according to a report from U.S. representative Dennis Kucinich (Democrat, Ohio), U.S. companies, under permits from the first Bush administration, sent mustard gas materials, live cultures for bacteriological research, to Iraq. U.S. companies helped Iraq build a chemical weapons factory, and then shipped Hussein a West Nile virus, hydrogen cyanide precursors, and parts for a new nuclear plant.

The infamous massacre at Halabja -- the gassing of the Kurds -- took place in March 1988. On September 19, sixth months later, U.S. companies sent eleven strains of germs, four types of anthrax to Iraq, including a microbe strain, called 11966, developed for germ warfare at Fort Detrick in the '50s. (Judith Miller provides a partial account of the sordid traffic in U.S. chemicals and germs in her book, “Germs: Biological Weapons And America’s Secret War”.)

Dow Chemical (infamous for its napalm in the Vietnam War) sold large amounts of pesticides, toxins that cause death by asphyxiation. Twenty-four U.S. firms exported arms and materials to Baghdad. France also sent Hussein 200 AMX medium tanks, Mirage bombers, and Gazelle helicopter gunships. As Assistant Secretary of Defense Richard Armitage testified in 1987: "We cannot stand to see Iraq defeated."

Source
 

Ocean Breeze

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 5, 2005
18,397
94
48
Re: RE: Is Saddam innocent?

FredBass said:
saddam broke iraqi laws.

murder is against the law in iraq.

dont you know this?


Murder is against the law......PERIOD.

...........and the US helped him for many years.

situation not black and white. Never is when the US is involved..
 

FredBass

New Member
Nov 13, 2005
8
0
1
more on saddam's childrens prisons

Prisons For Children Discovered in Baghdad
By Notra Trulock | April 24, 2003 Children have been routinely and repeatedly arrested to force their parents to confess to crimes against the regime.

On April 8, the French news service AFP reported that U.S. marines had liberated a children's prison in Northeast Baghdad. The report said that 100 to 150 children poured out of the unlocked prison gates and swarmed around their marine liberators. A marine officer told an AFP embedded reporter that the children looked undernourished and were wearing threadbare clothing.

Ironically, these children may have been the lucky ones. Over the past decade, international organizations like Human Rights Watch, have repeatedly reported on the imprisonment, torture, and execution of children by the Saddam Hussein regime. Children have been among the nearly 300,000 persons who have "disappeared" in Iraq since the later 1970s. Children have been routinely and repeatedly arrested to force their parents to confess to crimes against the regime.

For example, a March Boston Globe story detailed the interrogation of a former Iraqi secret police thug who had specialized in torture. The thug admitted torturing children as young as five or six to "get their mothers talking." He claimed that Iraqi torturers never killed the children, just "beat them with steel cables." But he was contradicted by a BBC story in which another former regime torturer said it was common to kill children if their parents wouldn't talk.

http://www.aim.org/media_monitor/A366_0_2_0_C

for shame you people. its one thing to oppose the war and not like bush. its another to defend saddam.