Iran outside and inside

[MikeyDB]

What's happened to the American people Jimmoyer?

 

[#juan]

I don't think I want nukes dropped on anyone but America is becoming harder and harder to like. In my younger years I read G.I. Joe comics and learned that all Japanese(Gooks)were bandy-legged little guys with thick glasses. I couldn't understand why the Americans weren't in the war against Hitler when Canadians had been at war for several years. Our side won that war with big help from a late America.
Later wars were more complicated. Korea was a police action that has never seemed to be fully over.
VietNam was a long running, ugly, nightmare for the VieNamese and a horror show for young Americans drafted and transported into that tiny country to fight a war that only the politicians knew the reason for , and a war that sixty odd thousand Americans never came home from.
Iraq was a war that G.W. Bush wanted but who knows why? Oil?

 

[jimmoyer]

I just came back from the garden eating worms.

Still digesting them.

 

[jimmoyer]

I gotta bad feeling that the righteous who condemn may wonder later at their own ferocity.

I wonder what injustice will be performed under the guise of justice to correct an injustice.

Hopefully I won't live so long to see another travesty looming.

 

[I think not]

America is hypocritical in its foreign policy, it only applies policies that serves Americas greatest interests. As long as there are interests, "friendships" become real. As soon as interests are gone, you become our "enemies". This has been a fact since 1776.

Not that we got that out of the way, who wants to defend their countrys' "benevolence".?

 

[jimmoyer]

Good point ITN.

The anti-Americanism zietgeist is strong and vibrant.

It's a worry.

 

[MikeyDB]

Good point ITN.

The anti-Americanism zietgeist is strong and vibrant.

It's a worry.

And unarguably valid.

 

[jimmoyer]

MikeyDB, it's absolutely valid in and of itself, but when you pull back from the tree and see the whole forest than you start to wonder about the myopia of it all.

 

[MikeyDB]

Tell that to the families of American service people returning from Iraq. Tell that to Americans losing their homes. Tell that to Americans losing their jobs. Tell that to Americans who watch as they're system of laws and justice..to say nothing of their constitution is rendered impotent.

There was a time when I used to get into aruments and even fights while goading Americans over silly things...like "It takes an American football team four downs to do what Canadian footballers do in three".....

Today Americans are a whipped voiceless drooling mass of indecision and confusion. I noticed you're unable to provide any clarity with respect to what happened to Americans. Perhaps they're completely conditioned to lies and embrace the philosophy of ITN...that "If yer not with us then yer an enemy".....

Great philosophy! This will undoubtedly go a long way to dispelling Anti-American zeitgeist!

 

[jimmoyer]

MikeyDB, you might be becoming as biased and one-sided as those you accuse.

 

[MikeyDB]

Jimmoyer

What passes for "fact" in Amercan's thinking today Jim? Is it the "fact" that Iraq wasn't involved in Al Qeada and didn't have enormous stockpiles of WMDS...or is it the "fact" that Americans (and anyone) who refutes those facts and argues for considered balanced foreign policy is a traitor and a terrorist?

Is it the "fact" that America was and has been complicit in creating situations like Saddam Hussein's genocide on his people...while supporting Iraq's war against Iran...or is it the "fact" that America has an incapacity to see beyond the outrage of an Iranian kidnapping...and has now reserved this behaviour as its own...(Guantanamo)? Is it the "fact" that your government has suspended the freedom of its people and authorized wire-taps without any greater justification than..."We think there's something going on..." Is it the "fact" that the government of the United States has withdrawn from the greater "forest" of international committment to the Geneva Accords and is re-writing the books on habeus corpus...?

How long and under what circumstances would you have the world support a government that has demonstrated its preparedness to bankrupt its people on the basis of lies and corruption?

Give us the facts Jim!

 

[Praxius]

I don't think I want nukes dropped on anyone but America is becoming harder and harder to like. In my younger years I read G.I. Joe comics and learned that all Japanese(Gooks)were bandy-legged little guys with thick glasses. I couldn't understand why the Americans weren't in the war against Hitler when Canadians had been at war for several years. Our side won that war with big help from a late America.

They Partially helped... the biggest difference in WWII that changed the overall outcome of the war was the Soviets entering the battle, and with their man power and superior tank designs, plus their winters, they disseminated the German Military Machine.

Later wars were more complicated. Korea was a police action that has never seemed to be fully over.

VietNam was a long running, ugly, nightmare for the VieNamese and a horror show for young Americans drafted and transported into that tiny country to fight a war that only the politicians knew the reason for , and a war that sixty odd thousand Americans never came home from.

Iraq was a war that G.W. Bush wanted but who knows why? Oil?

Whatever reasons he had for wanting the war, he was wrong.

 

[I think not]

Praxius

The US was providing military machines and supplies to both the Soviet Union and the UK, only a person ignorant in history would make a claim which nation did more than any other. WWII could not have been won with the absence of any nation. Period.

MikeyDB

I see the banality of your posts when losing an argument goes into high gear. Congrats, you've reached the next plateau.

 

[jimmoyer]

Thank you Praxius for getting rid of the bloody keyboard guy.

 

[Praxius]

Jimmoyer

What passes for "fact" in Amercan's thinking today Jim? Is it the "fact" that Iraq wasn't involved in Al Qeada and didn't have enormous stockpiles of WMDS...or is it the "fact" that Americans (and anyone) who refutes those facts and argues for considered balanced foreign policy is a traitor and a terrorist?

Is it the "fact" that America was and has been complicit in creating situations like Saddam Hussein's genocide on his people...while supporting Iraq's war against Iran...or is it the "fact" that America has an incapacity to see beyond the outrage of an Iranian kidnapping...and has now reserved this behaviour as its own...(Guantanamo)? Is it the "fact" that your government has suspended the freedom of its people and authorized wire-taps without any greater justification than..."We think there's something going on..." Is it the "fact" that the government of the United States has withdrawn from the greater "forest" of international committment to the Geneva Accords and is re-writing the books on habeus corpus...?

How long and under what circumstances would you have the world support a government that has demonstrated its preparedness to bankrupt its people on the basis of lies and corruption?

Give us the facts Jim!

Come on Mikey, we know there's no such thing as "Facts" down in the US.... it's just "Stay the Course" ~ I guess eventually if you stay the course long enough, it'll lead you to the truth.... of course if I also stay the course, I could eventually walk around the world... but in doing so, I'll drown in the ocean due to my blindness.

 

[MikeyDB]

ITN

I'm not arguing here ITN! I'm simply recalling the facts. I have no doubt of any kind that the American economic political and philosophical machine regards itself as beyond reproach. Despite what history provides in terms of the inadvisability of sacrificing sixty thousand young Americans in a senseless useless war....American hubris will call on the "gung-ho" patriotism of an unprincipled people to carry on in another.....

That's fact ITN...not argument.

 

[TehranTim]

In the late 1990s under a leftist administration in Iran we routinely held protests in the streets against the regime. There was hope for a regime overthrow. But then the tensions began and naturally people started to rally around the flag.

Since Bush's Axis of Evil speech even reform minded Iranians such as myself have put aside our efforts against the regime because of this outside threat from the US.

Change only comes in times of peace, and in times of tension like right now we all have to shut up. I may hate my brother but if some stranger came in our house I'd help defend myself and my brother.

That's the mindset right now.

I deeply fear a US attack on my country because it would set back reforms 20 years. The best case scenario is that nothing happens from now until next June, and then certainly Ahmadinejad won't be re-elected. If an attack does occur however Ahmadinejads far right government will be re-elected and it will be downhill from there.

 

[quandary121]

Gore Vidal "Since Bush" WE NO LONGER HAVE A REPUBLIC ANYMORE
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=MCX1zKbmkYY

Gore Vidal speaks to Afshin Rattansi about another of President Bush's attorney-generals facing a subpoena, the White House becoming Persepolis and military action against Iran.

Afshin Rattansi: We hear that Michael Mukasey is going to become the latest of the President's Attorney-Generals to be subpoenaed, this time over his conversations with Bush and Cheney -- does this show that Congress is serious about calling the executive to account?
Gore Vidal: No, Congress has never been more cowardly, nor more corrupt. All Bush has do is to make sure certain amounts of money go in the direction of certain important congressmen and that's end of any serious investigation. After all, one of the bravest members of Congress is Denis Kucinich who brought the article of impeachment in to the well of the House of Representatives. The House of Representatives must then try the president, and then after that it goes to the Senate for judgment. However, none of these things will happen because there's nobody there except for Mr. Kucinich who has the courage to take on a sitting president who is kind of a Mafioso.
Afshin Rattansi: How can it just be one person among so many hundreds of Congressmen who wants the impeachment of George W. Bush in these circumstances?
Gore Vidal: Well it's because we no longer have a country. We don't have a republic any more. During the last 7 or 8 years of the Bush regime, they've got rid of the Bill of Rights, they've got rid of habeas corpus. They have got rid of one of the nicest gifts that England ever left us when they went away and we ceased to be colonies -- the Magna Carta -- from the 12th century. All of our law and due process of law is based on that. And the Bush people got rid of it. The president and little Mr. Gonzales who for a few minutes was his Attorney General. They managed to get rid of all of the constitutional links that made us literally a republic.
Afshin Rattansi: You have often written about the United States' superpower status in terms of the history of previous superpowers. Do you think we're witnessing the end of U.S. power as some suggest. Will the White House be seen like Persepolis?

http://impeachment.kucinich.us/petiti...

 

[dancing-loon]

I was thinking of changing it soon......

But I liked it, Praxi! Please, put it back!:smile:

 

[dancing-loon]

.... It's not enough apparently that thousands of young men and women died in Iraq...for the lies of the U.S. government.... etc
....the list goes on and on and where are Americans?

Munching Big Macs and watching American idol....
They need something to get them motivated...and maybe a nuke would do that!

Hi, Mikey et al;
I'm late jumping into the debate, and hope I don't distract from the real issue of the arguments, but I would like to show one of the reasons why Americans don't get off their butts and protest. It could be that they are deliberately lied to and kept in the dark about the reason and the cost of the Iraq war.
Here are a few excerpts from an excellent article written four years ago:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]As of Sunday, April 25, a total of 718 American sons and daughters have come home from Iraq in flag-draped coffins, 117 in April alone. While President George W. Bush does not seem to be concerned about this -- he hasn't attended a single military funeral since launching the war -- he does seem to be concerned about the American people seeing images of the carnage his disastrous policies have wrought.
....
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The images, however, capture the tragic reality of war and that's why George W. Bush doesn't want you to see any more of them. The truth is the president's torturer, and any image that challenges his arrogant fantasies must be stopped.[/FONT]

it is now forbidden to photograph returning coffins of fallen soldiers.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]As Gulf War I began, Bush the Elder feared a repeat of the Vietnam-era images of an unrelenting stream of coffins returning home. Forget a free society and a Constitution that protects expression, these are forbidden images, unfit for the eyes of the American people. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Barbara Bush, wife and mother of the presidents, already stated her aversion to such unpleasant images, and perhaps she's making the call here. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In March of last year, as the invasion of Iraq began, Mrs. Bush told Diane Sawyer of ABC News that she wouldn't watch any television reports about her boy's war because, she said, "Why should we hear about body bags and death and how many? ... Oh, I mean, it's not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?" [/FONT]

Unbelievable!! How disgusting!! [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

He (Bush) has succeeded in creating a false image of himself, and he has been widely successful in selling the phony reasons for war and images he's fabricated to the American people. Grim, vivid reality cannot be tolerated.

[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jane Bright of West Hills, Calif., disagrees. Her 24-year-old son Evan Ashcraft was killed in combat in Iraq last July. She told CBS, "We need to stop hiding the deaths of our young. We need to be open about their deaths."

[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]President Bush fears openness about anything, especially Iraq. He and his handlers want to control every image and the reality of war -- death, suffering and destruction -- must be suppressed.[/FONT]

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0427-12.htm
----------------------------------------------
Aren't we Canadians in the same boat? Harper, too, has stopped the showing of returning coffins and the "repatriation with Canadian soil" on television. IF the people back home could see the brutality, the gruesomeness of the war they send their children to, there would be no more wars!!! And that would be the end of the politicians' crooked scheming!
So they lie and hide their real intentions and doings.