Independence for Quebec

lone wolf

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Nov 25, 2006
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For crying out loud Lone Wolf you sound like a complete ignorant. And I know you aren't. Ever heard of accents? Of slang?

English is subject to as many variations as French.

Who is more ignorant? They who try to understand, or they who expect others to understand them?

See ... I relocated to a small Franco-Ontarian village in the hope of picking up the language again. Obviously, there were NOT the Quebequois variety of francophone because it was a habit among these people that if one struggled with the language, they switched to flawless English. I picked up enough that I was able to carry a conversation.

Quebec? Forget it. It wasn't flawless local dialect so it was as if I didn't even speak. Am I not correct in assuming that for communication to work, TWO sides have to be willing to bend and trying to understand? Not my experience any time I've passed through La Belle Province.

It's been over 40 years of active pandering - sung to the tune of More More More - in hopes of appeasing the insatiable. I vote go.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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Who is more ignorant? They who try to understand, or they who expect others to understand them?

See ... I relocated to a small Franco-Ontarian village in the hope of picking up the language again. Obviously, there were NOT the Quebequois variety of francophone because it was a habit among these people that if one struggled with the language, they switched to flawless English. I picked up enough that I was able to carry a conversation.

Quebec? Forget it. It wasn't flawless local dialect so it was as if I didn't even speak. Am I not correct in assuming that for communication to work, TWO sides have to be willing to bend and trying to understand? Not my experience any time I've passed through La Belle Province.

It's been over 40 years of active pandering - sung to the tune of More More More - in hopes of appeasing the insatiable. I vote go.
I think you hit the nail here Wolf. It takes two to communicate. Many Quebecers take the "My way or the highway" approach. There are a lot of Quebecois in BC and they have no problem getting along, getting what they want. If someone is serving them and knows French, they serve them in French. The Quebecois I know out west are refugees from that exclusive attitude that says "I preserve my culture at the expense of all others."
 

s_lone

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Feb 16, 2005
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I think you hit the nail here Wolf. It takes two to communicate. Many Quebecers take the "My way or the highway" approach. There are a lot of Quebecois in BC and they have no problem getting along, getting what they want. If someone is serving them and knows French, they serve them in French. The Quebecois I know out west are refugees from that exclusive attitude that says "I preserve my culture at the expense of all others."

That's pretty much my experience here in Quebec Cliffy. Most Quebecers can manage in English quite well and tend to switch to English as soon as someone is struggling.

I'm part of a music ensemble in which there are both anglophones and francophones. It's very pleasant to here everyone constantly switching back and forth between French and English. It's all done with a sense of great camaraderie.

While I'm sure some of you have had some negative experiences in Quebec, you can be sure the opposite is also true. There are shallow people on all sides of the political and cultural spectrum. Those who demonize Quebec only demonstrate their shallowness in my opinion. Same goes for the nationalist zealots in Quebec.

Who is more ignorant? They who try to understand, or they who expect others to understand them?

See ... I relocated to a small Franco-Ontarian village in the hope of picking up the language again. Obviously, there were NOT the Quebequois variety of francophone because it was a habit among these people that if one struggled with the language, they switched to flawless English. I picked up enough that I was able to carry a conversation.

Quebec? Forget it. It wasn't flawless local dialect so it was as if I didn't even speak. Am I not correct in assuming that for communication to work, TWO sides have to be willing to bend and trying to understand? Not my experience any time I've passed through La Belle Province.

It's been over 40 years of active pandering - sung to the tune of More More More - in hopes of appeasing the insatiable. I vote go.

So what are the insatiable demands of Quebec Lone Wolf?
 

lone wolf

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So what are the insatiable demands of Quebec Lone Wolf?

Demands that never stop
Preferential treatment and incentives paid out for business to locate there
Sovereignty association, shared currency (and probably the keys to the family car) even after the divorce.

I can Google more if you really need it spelled out
 

s_lone

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Feb 16, 2005
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Demands that never stop
Preferential treatment and incentives paid out for business to locate there

What preferential treatment are you talking about?

Incentives paid out for business to locate here? By whom? The federal government? Doesn't the federal government invest money everywhere in Canada?

Sovereignty association, shared currency (and probably the keys to the family car) even after the divorce.

I can Google more if you really need it spelled out

2 referendums 15 years apart and you consider this ''demands that never stop''? There never was a demand for sovereignty association because the Quebec population never gave a mandate to its government to try to negotiate that.
 

lone wolf

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What preferential treatment are you talking about?

QPP as opposed to CPP
Bill 101 as opposed to the Official languages Act
PQ as a national party
Question: To take that seat in Parliament, one must swear an Oath of Allegiance to the Queen. How does one swear allegiance to a monarch one does not support or to a flag it is one's desire from which to separate? Isn't that perjury?

Incentives paid out for business to locate here? By whom? The federal government? Doesn't the federal government invest money everywhere in Canada?

Canadair comes to mind very quickly



2 referendums 15 years apart and you consider this ''demands that never stop''? There never was a demand for sovereignty association because the Quebec population never gave a mandate to its government to try to negotiate that.

Did I say referendum was a demand? Most of Quebec's perks will only be realized when they cease
 
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Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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That's pretty much my experience here in Quebec Cliffy. Most Quebecers can manage in English quite well and tend to switch to English as soon as someone is struggling.

Not according to Stats Can:

Population by knowledge of official language, by province and territory (2006 Census)

4,010,880 who assess themselves as French-speakers who do not know English divided by a total population of 7,435,905 makes:

54% (rounded off to the nearest unit) who assess themselves as French-speakers who do not know English.

Now if we consider that according to one study in Europe in 2001 that showed that people tend to overestimate their real linguistic abilities in self-assessments (i.e. people who know a smattering of the language assessing themselves as knowing it when in fact they are unable to pass an objective language test), then it's reasonable to conclude that the percentage of Quebecers who do know French but not English at a real functional level beyond basic 'tourism English' may be higher still.

Yet before we criticize Quebecers for their 'lack of effort in learning English', let's consider that the average rate of success in English learning in continental Western Europe, according to one study in 2001, is only about 6% (and in India, it's estimated at 4%, and that's after 400 years of British rule). So looking at it that way, Quebecers are faring quite well in their English studies compared to other nationalities around the world.

And since I've lived in both English and French Canada, including Montreal and La Malbaie, and abroad, I can ascertain that my observations seem to confirm the research in my mind.

The fact of the matter is that most languages are difficult to learn. Even if we had a good teacher, good students, and good parents, in the absence of the ideal environment, most pupils would fail to learn most second languages, certain easier languages being exception,s but with neither French nor English coming even close to falling within that exceptional category. The fact of the matter is that English and French are both difficult languages, and few succeed in learning them well before the end of their compulsory education, thus making them less than ideal international languages.
 

s_lone

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QPP as opposed to CPP
Bill 101 as opposed to the Official languages Act
PQ as a national party
Question: To take that seat in Parliament, one must swear an Oath of Allegiance to the Queen. How does one swear allegiance to a monarch one does not support or to a flag it is one's desire from which to separate? Isn't that perjury?


Canadair comes to mind very quickly

Did I say referendum was a demand? Most of Quebec's perks will only be realized when they cease

If Ontario wanted its own pension plan, do you think Canada would stop it? What bugs you about the fact that we have our own pension plan?

Good old bill 101. We're not demanding anything from the rest of Canada as far as I know. We simply ACT upon our conviction and YOU are the one demanding that we don't. The Quebec nation has chosen to protect its language by making French the official language of the state of Quebec. It's a democratic and collective choice made by Quebecers that applies only within the borders of Quebec. If you accepted the fact that Canada is a multi-national state, perhaps you'd respect the choices of our nation.

PQ as national party. What do you mean by that? You gotta problem with the existence of the PQ?

Canadair. What about it?

Canadair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anything in here that outrages you?


Question: To take that seat in Parliament, one must swear an Oath of Allegiance to the Queen. How does one swear allegiance to a monarch one does not support or to a flag it is one's desire from which to separate? Isn't that perjury?

One swears allegiance to a monarch one does not support while mentally resisting to the nauseating urge to puke your soul out.Or simply by not making a big deal out of it. One can have respect for the bulk of Canadian democratic institutions without necessarily supporting monarchy.

Surely you don't think that one necessarily must support monarchy to be elected in Canada...???
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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you're not a nation, you're one province with a bunch of whiny sh*t disturbers that have a definate problem with the fact that they have lost twice in their bid to tear Canada apart.
 
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Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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you're not a nation, you're one f*cking province with a bunch of whiny sh*t disturbers that have a definate problem with the fact that they have f*cking lost twice in their bid to tear Canada apart.

Have you ever lived in French-speaking Quebec? And I'm not talking about predominantly bilingual Montreal, but those parts where they refuse to speak English not to spite you, but because they can't speak English.

I have, and I will tell you that, regardless of politics, for intents and purposes they are a nation. They watch different TV programmes, read different books and newspapers, listen to different songs and radio programmes, etc. For all intents and purposes, their life experience is just as foreign to that in English-speaking Canada as it is in reverse.
 

El Barto

les fesses a l'aire
Feb 11, 2007
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Theres deffinately alot of bitter towards Quebec and the seperatists but right off the bat theres no differentiating the two from outside of Quebec. They forget the majority voted No twice but yet they are thrown under the bus and all frgotten about. Quebec is pointed at for being ignorant yet you look at those pointing the finger , they are no better .
 
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Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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Personally I'd rather focus on solutions. 'Lament for a Notion', a book written by Scott Reid, MP, could be a good starting point. It's not good enough a book to buy necessarily, but I think many libraries do carry it and that's how I'd read it.

Somehow I doubt many in Quebec would go for it, but I think it could be a good solution for English Canada, while letting Quebec do what it wants within its borders.

Sure some Federalist Quebecois would be angry to no end that French would not longer be obligatory in the Federal Government outside of Quebec except in local communities with a significant French-speaking population; but Quebec sovereigntists couldn't care less what happens outside of Quebec so we know that at least they won't make a fuss about it. And it would certainly save much money and probably put an end to the sovereignty movement when Quebecois realize that they'd then be free to legislate the language laws of their choice within their jurisdiction.
 
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Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
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When you all chill out and the Trolling stops...I'll open this Thread again if I'm still online.
____________________________________________________

OK...I'm opening the Thread again. Machjo & ElBarto....quite baiting, & Gerryh,
quite gobbling up their bait. If you three can't do that, I'll close the Thread again.
 

lone wolf

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Nov 25, 2006
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If Ontario wanted its own pension plan, do you think Canada would stop it? What bugs you about the fact that we have our own pension plan?

Did I say it bugs me? You need examples so I gave you one. Not good enough? Whoda thunk, eh?

Good old bill 101. We're not demanding anything from the rest of Canada as far as I know. We simply ACT upon our conviction and YOU are the one demanding that we don't. The Quebec nation has chosen to protect its language by making French the official language of the state of Quebec. It's a democratic and collective choice made by Quebecers that applies only within the borders of Quebec. If you accepted the fact that Canada is a multi-national state, perhaps you'd respect the choices of our nation.

Is it fair to your Anglo population? Is it fair to act on your conviction at the expense of others?


PQ as national party. What do you mean by that? You gotta problem with the existence of the PQ?

Canadair. What about it?

Canadair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anything in here that outrages you?

Do you actually SEE outrage?


One swears allegiance to a monarch one does not support while mentally resisting to the nauseating urge to puke your soul out.Or simply by not making a big deal out of it. One can have respect for the bulk of Canadian democratic institutions without necessarily supporting monarchy.

Surely you don't think that one necessarily must support monarchy to be elected in Canada...???

No, I believe if one does not run candidates in the entire nation, then they are not a national party in a national house and if one must be untrue to him/herself to sit in that house, then one should not be in that house.

If your Quebec isn't willing to reach reasonable compromise, then I say go. I don't believe Quebec has the resources to support itself as a true nation but it is sentimentalist to keep they who do not choose to be a part of a whole that can.
 

L Gilbert

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Oui. Or as the last French Canadian said to me, "Waw".

.... complete with a different set of rules for each province, territory, region, area, city, town, village, municipality, neighborhood, etc. because they are all "disstink"?

The Quebec nation stands on one of many levels of distinctness, as do all other nations and communities. There's a whole spectrum of distinctness in which every nation/people/community of the world can situate themselves and this mirrors the complexity and richness of the world we live in. In the end we're all humans, but identity goes much further than simply being human and our institutions need to be in tune to this. A successful Canadian future will depend on a delicate balance between centralizing and decentralizing forces.
Well, then perhaps as we are all distinct individuals, we should all have different rules than everyone else and to hell with being a unified society.

I think one of Canada's strength is precisely to be united in diversity. Canada pretty much is an Eden of diversity. Of course we have our issues and crisis, but we're still all in this together right? We only need to come to terms with our diversity.

I feel Canada could probably solve its unity problem once and for all if it accepted that it is not one nation and it never was. This is when we'll find true unity. When we realize that we are a family of nations rather than an artificial and forced monolithic nation.
The thesis of Canada is to make one nation with a diversity of cultures not to make a conglomeration of differing and opposing elements.
Like Gerry said, if you don't want to accept what Canada offers, leave. We are Canadians whether you like it or not. I don't see Hindus, Greeks, Japanese squawking about their languages disappearing, their cultures disappearing, their distinctness disappearing. Only a disgruntled portion of you Quebeckers with sour grapes or whatever it is that makes you think you are more special than anyone else..

In my opinion, the only true Canadian ''nation'' is the one which views itself as a community of nations. And that doesn't diminish what Canada is. It makes Canada something more profound than anything Quebec can be. Not better, but deeper. Canada stands on a higher hierarchical level and thus needs to be more including of its inner diversity.

Canada is functional but sooner or later, we'll need a new pact that honours the diversity of Canada. A pact in which we can all feel included. First Nations especially...
It's funny that countries like Switzerland can have a pretty contented population and still hang on to 4 EQUAL cultures, complete with 4 official languages and Canada only has two and one of the two is constantly whining about not being special enough.

Funny.... In this part of Franco Ontario, oui comes out like "owie" ...and in high school, the teacher (who masterd his language skills in France) said it as ewie.
Mine was direct from the west of Paris and that's about how she said "oui".
I've heard "oui" here pronounced a few ways and none of them sounded like European French. Even the Belgian friend we have does not understand the Canadian French sometimes.
As far as Anishinaaabemowin goes, I can see why Anna and other Ojibwe want to preserve the original language as much as possible, but I cannot see why anyone would want to preserve a bastardised language. But then we have those people that made up rap "music" and their own language. But even they aren't paranoid about it disappearing. Apparently the French speakers in NB aren't either.

How can you operate as a nation if you can't even agree on how to say yes?
LW, it's just a word. Do you think a Chinese person says lollipop the same way a Sikh would?

Note: No still sounds like NO....
Actually, English "no" sounds like the "o" is definitely the end of the word, whereas the French "o" sounds like it should be followed by a semi-silent letter (like "n") to me.

Have you ever lived in French-speaking Quebec? And I'm not talking about predominantly bilingual Montreal, but those parts where they refuse to speak English not to spite you, but because they can't speak English.

I have, and I will tell you that, regardless of politics, for intents and purposes they are a nation. They watch different TV programmes, read different books and newspapers, listen to different songs and radio programmes, etc. For all intents and purposes, their life experience is just as foreign to that in English-speaking Canada as it is in reverse.
Well, perhaps they should be paid for whatever real estate they each own and be given moving expenses to wherever their ancestors came from (after they've paid their share of the national debt. *shrugs*
Like Anna said, the Chinese in Vancouver feel no threat from the rest of Canada. There are Doukhobors around GF and C-gar that don't seem to have any problem keeping Russian as a language and they practise their culture. They just adopted and adapted the variety of Canadian cultures to fit theirs rather than fighting them and whining about them.
 
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s_lone

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Well, then perhaps as we are all distinct individuals, we should all have different rules than everyone else and to hell with being a unified society.

Do all the same laws apply in all states of the US? Do you have the same municipal laws in all the municipalities? There already is different rules for varying levels of hierarchical orders everywhere on earth (countries, provinces, cities, etc.) That doesn't stop countries to be unified. I never said some rules shouldn't apply to all of Canada. Clearly, we should all have the same criminal laws. What we obviously don't agree on is whether the same language principles should apply everywhere. Macho is right. A majority of Quebecers couldn't care less if French was removed as official language in the rest of Canada. I'm sure you can treat the French minority with civility. The Quebec anglophone community of which I am a part of likes living in Quebec. If they didn't they'd get the hell out.

The thesis of Canada is to make one nation with a diversity of cultures not to make a conglomeration of differing and opposing elements.
Like Gerry said, if you don't want to accept what Canada offers, leave. We are Canadians whether you like it or not. I don't see Hindus, Greeks, Japanese squawking about their languages disappearing, their cultures disappearing, their distinctness disappearing. Only a disgruntled portion of you Quebeckers with sour grapes or whatever it is that makes you think you are more special than anyone else..

Yes we are all Canadians. But you are not a Quebecer. Whether you view us as a nation has no relevance to whether we are on or not. We feel like one. Act like one. You go ahead if you feel that way too.

It's funny that countries like Switzerland can have a pretty contented population and still hang on to 4 EQUAL cultures, complete with 4 official languages and Canada only has two and one of the two is constantly whining about not being special enough.

Mine was direct from the west of Paris and that's about how she said "oui".
I've heard "oui" here pronounced a few ways and none of them sounded like European French. Even the Belgian friend we have does not understand the Canadian French sometimes.
As far as Anishinaaabemowin goes, I can see why Anna and other Ojibwe want to preserve the original language as much as possible, but I cannot see why anyone would want to preserve a bastardised language. But then we have those people that made up rap "music" and their own language. But even they aren't paranoid about it disappearing. Apparently the French speakers in NB aren't either.

If you are insinuating that Quebec French is a bastardized language than I pity your ignorance. But I'm not sure that's what you mean and based on most of your posts, I don't tend to think this what you mean.

d, whereas the French "o" sounds like it should be followed by a semi-silent letter (like "n") to me.

Well, perhaps they should be paid for whatever real estate they each own and be given moving expenses to wherever their ancestors came from (after they've paid their share of the national debt. *shrugs*
Like Anna said, the Chinese in Vancouver feel no threat from the rest of Canada. There are Doukhobors around GF and C-gar that don't seem to have any problem keeping Russian as a language and they practise their culture. They just adopted and adapted the variety of Canadian cultures to fit theirs rather than fighting them and whining about them.[/QUOTE]

Again. Who are the ones whining? We in Quebec just keep on living with our language laws and are happy about it.

you're not a nation, you're one province with a bunch of whiny sh*t disturbers that have a definate problem with the fact that they have lost twice in their bid to tear Canada apart.

Nation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Trotz

Electoral Member
May 20, 2010
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It's funny that countries like Switzerland can have a pretty contented population and still hang on to 4 EQUAL cultures, complete with 4 official languages and Canada only has two and one of the two is constantly whining about not being special enough.

There's a good reason for that namely because the Swiss Federal Government is minimalistic and most of the decision making is carried out within the individual cantons.

A hell a lot different than Canada where most of our friction stems from the government in Ottawa and previous Prime Ministers, such as Trudeau, who are fixated with (delusional) self-fulfilling prophecies to turn our Federation into a Centralized Entity.

That is the real source of friction here. To be honest, no in British Columbia could care less if English was outlawed in Quebec but it continues to bother us that we are forced to print everything in two labels, the fact that we are penalized from entering the Federal Government (few of us ever become proficient in French for obvious reason), et al.
 

L Gilbert

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Do all the same laws apply in all states of the US? Do you have the same municipal laws in all the municipalities?
Quit being obtuse. But, yes, there are laws that apply to each and every single individual within a country. Even the USA. Federal laws should apply federally.
There already is different rules for varying levels of hierarchical orders everywhere on earth (countries, provinces, cities, etc.) That doesn't stop countries to be unified. I never said some rules shouldn't apply to all of Canada. Clearly, we should all have the same criminal laws.
Ya think?
What we obviously don't agree on is whether the same language principles should apply everywhere. Macho is right. A majority of Quebecers couldn't care less if French was removed as official language in the rest of Canada. I'm sure you can treat the French minority with civility. The Quebec anglophone community of which I am a part of likes living in Quebec. If they didn't they'd get the hell out.
Whether Machjo is right or wrong is irrelevant. Why does there need to be special laws concerning language there? Perhaps the Chinese should have special Mandarin laws, the Russians should have special Russian laws, etc. There are no special language laws for each of the aboriginal languages. Why not? The NBers don';t demand special language laws for their French. Why not? Because each and every other culture can get by quite well without them. Not so for the minority fraction of Quebeckers. I guess they are special after all: weak-willed and less competent in comparison to the RoC.

Yes we are all Canadians. But you are not a Quebecer. Whether you view us as a nation has no relevance to whether we are on or not. We feel like one. Act like one. You go ahead if you feel that way too.
Yup, I do. I am Canadian. But I can tell you if I would be as I am in Quebec and had a retail store or some business that required signage, you can bet that English wording would be the same size as French on the signage.

If you are insinuating that Quebec French is a bastardized language than I pity your ignorance. But I'm not sure that's what you mean and based on most of your posts, I don't tend to think this what you mean.
I wasn't insinuating anything.Quebec French is as French as Cajun French and it has little to do with traditional French.
I have no idea what you were doing with the following, but I have a suspicion you messed up the quote:
d, whereas the French "o" sounds like it should be followed by a semi-silent letter (like "n") to me.

Well, perhaps they should be paid for whatever real estate they each own and be given moving expenses to wherever their ancestors came from (after they've paid their share of the national debt. *shrugs*
Like Anna said, the Chinese in Vancouver feel no threat from the rest of Canada. There are Doukhobors around GF and C-gar that don't seem to have any problem keeping Russian as a language and they practise their culture. They just adopted and adapted the variety of Canadian cultures to fit theirs rather than fighting them and whining about them.
Again. Who are the ones whining? We in Quebec just keep on living with our language laws and are happy about it.
The few that periodically bring up that they are in dire threat of losing their language and culture and call for referendums about separation. IOW, the sovereigntists and separatists. Where've you been?