How can we get rid of our sinfulness?

L Gilbert

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I try following the libertarian goal of doing what I wish without being a pain in the a$$ to anyone else. Works for me. Completely excludes crutches like religions and whatnot and if I screw up, me, myself, and I that did it without the help of some superstition, so I am the one that takes responsibility.
 

sanctus

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Interesting thread.

Good posts Sanctus.

I've never felt the existence of hypocrisy in any institution enough to throw the whole body of it
in to the trash.


Thank you. The reality is we often label the entire institution, whatever it is, because of the behaviour of some of its members. It is easy enough to do, I suppose, but hardly fair. In the case of the Church, it has always been a force for good in the world. Some of its members though, in both high and low places, are certainly not good representatives of the values the Church upholds and adheres to.
 

sanctus

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I try following the libertarian goal of doing what I wish without being a pain in the a$$ to anyone else. Works for me. Completely excludes crutches like religions and whatnot and if I screw up, me, myself, and I that did it without the help of some superstition, so I am the one that takes responsibility.


Religion, or more specifically faith, is never a "crutch" for believers. It is never a justification for behaviour that is harmful. Always it is up to the individual.
 

sanctus

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Thanks, but I've got to confess I got more than a little help from Bonhoeffer.

"normative road". sounds almost Hegelian. any idea who coined it?


Read quite a bit of Bonhoeffer once upon a time, when studying was the only reason to exist:) Had a few teachers that really pushed St. Thomas Aquinas...I must have been through his "Summa Theologica" so much in those years that it is surprising I haven't put all the words I read into my memory!! (Though I still enjoy browsing the works to this day) Funny, 3/4 of the academic material we studied in Seminary is almost never used in actual ministry...
 

L Gilbert

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Religion, or more specifically faith, is never a "crutch" for believers. It is never a justification for behaviour that is harmful. Always it is up to the individual.
Of course it isn't a crutch to those who use it. But if I need something, I don't have to pray for it, talk to a god about it, etc. I work for it. If I notice something lacking in my character, I work on it. You'd be surprised how much I can do without having the "benefit" of a faith. I've also been free of having to pay homage to deities, I manage to solve my problems without the aid of deities, and I almost always manage to avoid the bad stuff laid out in your commandments and cardinal sins, with the exception of sloth. I do get a bit lazy now and then. But, I'm not going to head off and seek forgiveness from a priest in a box. I'd much rather reap the rewards of my laziness without involving anyone else. So, whatever "faith" is to those who use it,it still looks like a crutch to me.

People seem to have managed to use their "faith" as a reason to pull off all kinds of atrocities.

And, I know it is always up to the individual. That's what I've been saying.

Um, I'm not trying to tell people that their faith is no good, just that if they say they follow a faith they should bloody well follow it faithfully , use a little thought instead of blindly following dogma, etc.
 
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BitWhys

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Read quite a bit of Bonhoeffer once upon a time, when studying was the only reason to exist:) Had a few teachers that really pushed St. Thomas Aquinas...I must have been through his "Summa Theologica" so much in those years that it is surprising I haven't put all the words I read into my memory!! (Though I still enjoy browsing the works to this day) Funny, 3/4 of the academic material we studied in Seminary is almost never used in actual ministry...

My familiarity with Aquinas is only in passing. My pursuits don't generally lead me to investigating the academia of natural theology to any extent. Call it a predisposition. By way of example I tend to agree with Edmund Burke's observation civil society requires more than the observance of natural rights in defining its ethical framework because, as I see it, the range of said natural rights may elevate us above the nasty but still leaves us with the brutish and short. Which leads me to a few remarks about libertarian philisophy.

As a philosophy, libertarianism fails to recognize the plethora of assumptions underlying any workable social contract. The property rights they lay claim to are legitimized by way of convention, not observation. The enforcement of those rights fails to transcend the struggle-to-power inherent to any collective human endevour and in that, establishes itself to be utopian. Being simply a philosophy, of course, it fails to fully appreciate the full context of humanity and its place in the world.
 

sanctus

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My familiarity with Aquinas is only in passing. My pursuits don't generally lead me to investigating the academia of natural theology to any extent. Call it a predisposition. By way of example I tend to agree with Edmund Burke's observation civil society requires more than the observance of natural rights in defining its ethical framework because, as I see it, the range of said natural rights may elevate us above the nasty but still leaves us with the brutish and short. Which leads me to a few remarks about libertarian philisophy.
.


Aquinas is almost standard reading for seminary students. His "Summa Theologica" is almost the basis for most doctrinal approaches of the Church, even today. I'll see if I can find some material on this to share.
 

sanctus

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As a philosophy, libertarianism fails to recognize the plethora of assumptions underlying any workable social contract. The property rights they lay claim to are legitimized by way of convention, not observation. The enforcement of those rights fails to transcend the struggle-to-power inherent to any collective human endevour and in that, establishes itself to be utopian. Being simply a philosophy, of course, it fails to fully appreciate the full context of humanity and its place in the world.


An interesting point of view. Do you feel that those who would adhere to such a philosophy have somehow missed the mark? Do they not tend to place a great emphasis on observation over actual experience?
 

BitWhys

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An interesting point of view. Do you feel that those who would adhere to such a philosophy have somehow missed the mark? Do they not tend to place a great emphasis on observation over actual experience?

Suffice it to say its one of the products of the enlightenment?

IMO, they lay claim to an ethic and deem it to be an analysis of objective reality when its really little more than another flavour of apologetics for economic determinism.

and if you've got a 15 page reader on Aquinas you can recommend I'd be delighted to find the time.
 

Dexter Sinister

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I resent it too! Though even in resenting it, I know I am a sinner.
There's another point where we part company. I don't know I'm a sinner, I'm not even sure what it means to be a sinner, but I do know I've done my best my whole life not to be one, whatever it means. I've made mistakes, certainly, and there are some things I wish I could do over, there are some people I wish I had dealt with more sensitively and thoughtfully, and one in particular that even 35 years after the fact I still think I should try to find and apologize to for my youthful folly. I would, if I had any clue where she is now. But I'll never concede that I've sinned.
 

L Gilbert

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Suffice it to say its one of the products of the enlightenment?

IMO, they lay claim to an ethic and deem it to be an analysis of objective reality when its really little more than another flavour of apologetics for economic determinism.

and if you've got a 15 page reader on Aquinas you can recommend I'd be delighted to find the time.
Ah, but what if a libertarian isn't just a libertarian? Doesn't that kinda jerk your little tag of "apologetics for economic determinism" around for a ride? You gotta know there are Christian libertarians, right-wing libertarians, Taoist libertarians, minarchists (like me), civil libertarians, classical libertarians, geolibertarians, etc.
 

L Gilbert

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There's another point where we part company. I don't know I'm a sinner, I'm not even sure what it means to be a sinner, but I do know I've done my best my whole life not to be one, whatever it means. I've made mistakes, certainly, and there are some things I wish I could do over, there are some people I wish I had dealt with more sensitively and thoughtfully, and one in particular that even 35 years after the fact I still think I should try to find and apologize to for my youthful folly. I would, if I had any clue where she is now. But I'll never concede that I've sinned.
lol
There's another thing, being free of "faith" one can be free from worrying about "going to hell", "judgement day", etc.
 

sanctus

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Suffice it to say its one of the products of the enlightenment?

IMO, they lay claim to an ethic and deem it to be an analysis of objective reality when its really little more than another flavour of apologetics for economic determinism.

.


That has been my take on the subject as well. As you wrote, an apologetic which provides its followers a justification for economic determinism. Funny, I almost get the feeling that the focus of the material is so euro-centric in its applications.
But than again, aren't most western based philosophies!
 

sanctus

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There's another point where we part company. I don't know I'm a sinner, I'm not even sure what it means to be a sinner, but I do know I've done my best my whole life not to be one, whatever it means. I've made mistakes, certainly, and there are some things I wish I could do over, there are some people I wish I had dealt with more sensitively and thoughtfully, and one in particular that even 35 years after the fact I still think I should try to find and apologize to for my youthful folly. I would, if I had any clue where she is now. But I'll never concede that I've sinned.

Sin is a rather cumbersome word, especially in its implications. Classic defintion of "sin" is that sin is all behaviour that seperates us from God and causes harm to ourselves or others. How about replacing the word with "harmful behaviour"? And if you must, remove the aspect of a relationship with God. In this sense, sin becomes closer perhaps to what Jesus implied..that when we sin, we cause harm to ourselves and others. In this sense, are we not therefore all sinners? Have we not hurt someone else by our actions or words? I have! I do!

I think with such a philosophical construct as classic Christianity, removed from the horrors of American styled fundamentalism of course, it was important for such a philosophy to realize the behaviour of its members could be harmful to other people.

Or, if you look at it another way, the emphasis of the faith is to purify self, to be the Good Samaritan if you will. To do so, we must free ourselves from those things which hinder us progressing both spiritually and emotionally, sin being a chief factor of that.