Harper predicts pain at gas pumps if Layton is in power

YVR Man

New Member
Feb 18, 2009
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What has Harper done about his oil company friends?


Exactly !!!
he has been in power for over 7 years now ,

what has he done for the middle class, pensioners , students ????

He is all about corporations and big business interests ... junior "W" Bush voodoo economics ..

People see that the Conservatives and Liberals are cut from the same cloth and are willing to give Jack a chance to govern since they are tired of the other two long term parties !!!!

Grumpy I agree with almost everything you posted here except the Jets for Medicare bit. In regard to medicare we need to make an honest assessment of how its delivered and should not treat it as if it is some Holy Grail that should be touched.

Oh, and we do need jets. Ours are older than my son who by the way has served more than half of his 20 year career in the forces.

Yes , we do need new jets , but not the F-35 prototype model which the conservatives have chosen .

Its a single engined jet , Our airforce needs twin engined jets for far north patrols where the difference between life & death is having a second engine where one of the two fails in flight , and that 2nd engine takes you home !. You don't have any option with the F-35 other than bail out into the sub zero arctic wasteland ..and watch your jet tunnel itself into the artic wasteland . The F-35 is a poor choice , A Much better choice and we already have the tooling and spares , is the revamped F-18 super Hornet which is the upgraded , updated version of the Jet we already use in our airforce !
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
44,850
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I think a much better option is to stop sending our boys and girls off to war, which is the only reason we need fighter jets like the F-35. We need a leader who will take us out of the war monger clubs like NATO and the UN. Support our troops - bring them home!
 

Retired_Can_Soldier

The End of the Dog is Coming!
Mar 19, 2006
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Grumpy, again I think we agree, but I am always leery when the people vote out a government and don't think about who their voting in.

Jack is very out of touch with the responsibility he'll face. He like many of the far left scream on this board about the evils of corporations while blatantly ignoring the fact that those very corporations employ millions of Canadians. Our manufacturing base in this Country has taken a major beating in the last decade. A big part of that is because corporations have moved to cheaper pastures and while our labor costs will never match that of China or even Mexico we do have the ability to keep the evil corporations here. With rising fuel costs shipping is becoming less and less attractive, but put that against hiking corporate taxes and making it less affordable to produce and we just shoot ourselves in the foot.

Our neighbors to the South buy a lot more of our goods than people realize and if that traffic were to be impeded by ridiculous protectionism we would see our manufacturing be hit even harder.

Jack as an official opposition against a Con or LIberal majority could actually be a good thing for the NDP, but with a minority it will be more of the same.

And by the way, I commend you for pointing out that the Liberals have become inert.

They really need to do some serious reflection or they will be replaced permanently.
 

El Barto

les fesses a l'aire
Feb 11, 2007
5,959
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I can't find myself believing much of anything any politicians say about each other during election campaign.
The more they talk about each other the more it shows they have less to offer
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
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Well a gas hike really BUGS me. It is hilarious how people living in the city can so blithely state such nonsense without a thought for all of us living in rural areas. You want to overcome dependence on oil - fine - get out of your car and take a bus or subway or walk - at least you have the luxury of doing so - we don't.

You realize you're talking about $2 a month, right? lol
 

SLM

The Velvet Hammer
Mar 5, 2011
29,151
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The NDP, from my point of view, has always been an "ideals" party. They could afford to be, having never come this close (before) to any real power at the federal level. Some of the ideals espoused by the NDP I actually agree with, some I do not, but the real problem, as I see it, is the practical application of these ideals. This is always where true "pie-in-the-sky" idealism tends to fall apart. This is not to say that it cannot be done, that we cannot apply ideals to the reality that we live in, but to do so involves comprimise and experience with practical solutions. This is where I cannot see the NDP coming through, they have no such experience because they've never been in the stituation where they've had the opportunity to gain the experience.

Political philosophies aside, I'd personally kind of like to see them have a kick at the can as official opposition but I don't think they are anywhere near ready for a full on leadership role.

Regardless, no matter how things shape up on May 2, I'm fairly certain that the sun will still come up on May 3.
 

cranky

Time Out
Apr 17, 2011
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They used to always be a party for the working man. But that changed when they turned their backs on hunters and farmers w.r.t. gun registry. The NDP has become just another arm chaired buraucracy will less morals and more intent, growing day by day
 

Jack_Of_Spade

Nominee Member
Mar 31, 2011
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Grumpy I agree with almost everything you posted here except the Jets for Medicare bit. In regard to medicare we need to make an honest assessment of how its delivered and should not treat it as if it is some Holy Grail that should be touched.

Oh, and we do need jets. Ours are older than my son who by the way has served more than half of his 20 year career in the forces.

I have dificulty respecting the opinion of somone who brags about spending 20 years taking orders on how to dress and how to think!

Retired, I agree that we have to assess medicare, what are we going to do about rising
costs and more importantly how are we going to pay for the system down the road.
I was not saying outright that we had to abandoned the jets we have to do something
to upgrade, and if we outright cancel the jets we would have to pay a fee for cancellation.
It is not so much how much money the government has it is what is the priority for
spending and how do we deliver the service. I have said for years we have to begin the
ordeal of deciding what we invest in and how do we pay for it.
Actually the center left governments, Saskatchewan for example, has a better spending
and balanced budget record than most of the other parties in Canada.
We have to get beyond there are only two choices as the first two choices have not in
fact served the interests of Canadians well or we wouldn't be in the mess we are in now
in the spring of our national collective discontent.
I am not without my reservations about Jack, its just that I have no Illusions about the other
two. Harper is a social conservative not a fiscal conservative and in that there is a difference.
The Liberals have no real direction and they are bankrupt as a political entity and will be for
some time. Neither of them have provided the future Canadians expect and people are
fed up completely or close to it. Voters are demanding the Conservatives and New Democrats
work together for the national interests of the country by delivering no one a majority government
when this is over, but the don't want an election for a long time.
The problem for both will be the need to compromise and they will be forced to do so. In turn
this will blunt the social conservative agenda, likely costing Harper his job and at the same time
Canadians will have a longer period to assess the direction and policy of the NDP.
One other thing of note, the more the attack Layton with nasty ads the more he rises in the polls
and the reason is because people are insulted when you attack the party they are already
determined to vote for as a vehicle of change. Harper is hammering an inflexible position,
Iggy looks like he is pleading for mercy, the Bloc looks like a deer in the headlights like what the
hell is happening, and Jack, all he needs to do is smile, wave his cane and talk about making
life better for students, women, working people and small business, as the tide of the big orange
wave keeps rolling ashore. The only thing Harper has going for him is the wave didn't start ten
days earlier other wise we would be looking at an NDP victory.

The Harper campain adds started almost a month befor the goverment fell For a while it looked like we were already into an election.
Just another way Harper pushed the oposition into a fight . Arrogance is so uggly on a leader!
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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At this point, there is no NDP fiscal policy that could any be worse than the economic disaster the conservatives have put us through. You'll have to find another angle, because if you're talking talking money, here, the conservatives have done a poor job.

The Liberals handed them a lovely platter to help them through the recession and they still blew it. They slashed taxes for big businesses and we're still in debt and suffering a deficit. And lastly, they're making the most wasteful expenditure the country has ever seen.

Sorry, but the conservatives have objectively failed as an economic conduit for the country.

Time to accept it and move on.

Honestly, I may very well cast a blank ballot this coming Monday, preceisely for the reasons pointed out in this forum. All of them are economic incompetents. They're all saying we should not vote for the other, and sadly enough, they're all right. Take their advice to heart.

Jack of Spades, why did you put a Hindu symbol on the Conservative Party symbol in your avatar?
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Honestly, if the NDP were more like Sweden's Sweden's Social Democratic Party (a social-corporatist party) , or the Conservative Party more like Poland's Civic Platform (a liberal-conservative party), I could consider voting for them. Unfortunately, with the NDP being more of a labour-socialist and the Conservatives being more of a neo-conservative party, I have a hard time voting for either. Again, i'll consider the candidate, but most just blindly follow their party platforms.

As for the Liberal party, it really doesn't have much imagination and so just rehacks whatever is popular, never willing to push its boundaries.

The Green party's platform has some social-corporatist elements to it, but still not very imaginative. Really just a greener version of the old progressive Conservatives.

I was just in Sweden and its far more socialist than the NDP. You are cherry picking information to support your perceptions.

Sweden is a social welfare system where everyone is guaranteed a minimum standard of living. So they have no need of minimum wage, when even the poor have a relatively high standard of living. In fact, an unemployed swede who hasn't worked in years can afford to go to Spain every winter on vacation. You don't even have to be a Swedish citizen to enjoy full benefits. Being a resident is good enough to enjoy their social welfare system.

Yes schools are private. The way it works is that all schools get so much money from the state per child. Some schools are run by the government and some aren't. Parents can choose where they want to send their children to school. A poor person can send their child to any school, because school/education from day care through university is a state responsibility and free. So its not like the US private school system, which is class oriented and expensive. BTW, University is free, but merit based. You can't build a new house easily, but the government is responsible for housing everyone. Wait times for new homes are in the years/decades.

Hospitals and most medical services are free for everyone. But if you want cosmetic surgery or go to the head of the line, you pay. I guess that's two tier, but the lower tier is about equal to what's available in Canada, but with far shorter wait times.

Beer is $10 or more each in their bars and not much cheaper when you buy it in the store. A 10 minute taxi ride costs about the same as taking the train from Stockholm to Oslo and back (8 hours on a train = 10 minutes by taxi). Wealthy people pay far more in taxes than Canada or the US and poor people pay nothing.

Most Swedish workers (about 85%) are unionized. Unskilled laborers have relatively high wages compared to Canada, which explains taxi fares and beer prices, while skilled workers make far less than here in Canada and pay far more taxes.

You are right, that the NDP platform isn't like Sweden. The NDP is not nearly so socialist as the Swedish model.

Not cherry picking at all. I was pointing out specifically that the Swedish system, as 'socialist' as it is, still adheres to basic economic principles. Yes their taxes are high, and yes they have co-determination laws (which I'm in favour of). And yes, education is free.

All that said, their socialist system still functions within a market reality, rather than being disconnected from it. For example, any economist will tell you that minimum wage laws are more harmful to the poor than they are beneficial, and so Sweden has followed their advice. Can you imagine the NDP eliminating minimum wage laws on the advice of economists?

Sweden, as socialist as it may be, is still pro-free-trade in recognition of the fact that, again, that is the recommendation of trained economists.

Co-determination legislation is also a good idea as, unlike minimum wages, it does not create any kind of price floor yet still ensures democratization of the workplace.

The NDP could also learn from Margareta Handzlik, Member of the European Parliament from Poland's Civic Platform (a liberal conservative party). Though ideologically more right-leaning, she still proposes economically sound solutions to promoting language equality in the EU. Ironically enough, though she essentially leads the charge at the EU on that front, most of supporters are among left-leaning MEPs. Just goes to show that you can't be so blindly ideological. Swden's Social Democrats and Poland's Handzlik are prime examples of this, how a platform must be socially liberal or progressive while also being fiscally responsible and that requires far more imagination than ideology will will allow.

 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
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The NDP, from my point of view, has always been an "ideals" party. They could afford to be, having never come this close (before) to any real power at the federal level. Some of the ideals espoused by the NDP I actually agree with, some I do not, but the real problem, as I see it, is the practical application of these ideals. This is always where true "pie-in-the-sky" idealism tends to fall apart. This is not to say that it cannot be done, that we cannot apply ideals to the reality that we live in, but to do so involves comprimise and experience with practical solutions. This is where I cannot see the NDP coming through, they have no such experience because they've never been in the stituation where they've had the opportunity to gain the experience.

Have you seen the budget they are planning?

Did you know they actually have a budget spreadsheet?

I've searched the conservative website, and I don't see their income statement for our country. This "pie in the sky", idealism line seems to be rhetoric, my friend. If anything, putting themselves on the line with specific figures is even more pragmatic and less idealistic than the conservative platform.

It really irks me that the country has fallen for this kind of branding while we plummet further and further into debt. I think we need to take a more critical approach and bring in some evidence instead of just toting the conservative indoctrination motto.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
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But what saddens me about the NDP is its sacred cows. i can think of plenty of ways the NDP could accomplish its goal of promoting more social justice in a far more economically efficient manner than it's currently proposing.

Granted the Conservatives are even worse, and even the Greens fall short. And none of my local candidates has managed to shine through. So, whom to vote for? Mediocrity abounds throughout.
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
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But what saddens me about the NDP is its sacred cows. i can think of plenty of ways the NDP could accomplish its goal of promoting more social justice in a far more economically efficient manner than it's currently proposing.

You should share. With enough media exposure it is possible to get them to change their platform if we (the people) can bring something more reasonable to the table.
 

cranky

Time Out
Apr 17, 2011
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Quote: Originally Posted by mentalfloss
At this point, there is no NDP fiscal policy that could any be worse than the economic disaster the conservatives have put us through. You'll have to find another angle, because if you're talking talking money, here, the conservatives have done a poor job.

The Liberals handed them a lovely platter to help them through the recession and they still blew it. They slashed taxes for big businesses and we're still in debt and suffering a deficit. And lastly, they're making the most wasteful expenditure the country has ever seen.

Sorry, but the conservatives have objectively failed as an economic conduit for the country.

Time to accept it and move on.


I just wanted to review your first sentence. The economic "disaster" that you mention was a worldwide phenomen. No one person in Canada can be held responsible for it. Harper certainly didn't have his hand in causing this "disaster", he has only had his hand in the deficet creation that the Canadian Government is now faced with due to economic recovery efforts.

You have to ask yourself one question. If it was the Liberals or NDP in power, would the deficet have been even greater? I think so.

 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
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Ideals are great things ... IF you can find a way to work them into the script. Rae's NDP found out it wasn't the Premier who wrote the rules and I expect Jack will learn the same thing - if he hasn't already seen it in action. Jack's advantage is he didn't go making wild promises to the Unions.
 

cranky

Time Out
Apr 17, 2011
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I love unions and I love ISO quality management systems. They both seek to replace arbitrary decisions and discriminatory practises with policy and procedure. With the recent popularity in ISO QMS, it is obvious that Unions were ahead of their time.
 

Avro

Time Out
Feb 12, 2007
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I just wanted to review your first sentence. The economic "disaster" that you mention was a worldwide phenomen. No one person in Canada can be held responsible for it. Harper certainly didn't have his hand in causing this "disaster", he has only had his hand in the deficet creation that the Canadian Government is now faced with due to economic recovery efforts.

You have to ask yourself one question. If it was the Liberals or NDP in power, would the deficet have been even greater? I think so.

Yet they go on and on about Bob Rae and what he did to Ontario.......oh wait.....there was a recession at the time....guess he gets a pass as well.
 

Newvoter

New Member
Apr 27, 2011
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“The NDP approach to issues like trade has not changed since the Cold War. It is an ideological throwback.”

As a unbiased observer (I haven't decided who to vote for yet...it's wide open for me) I find it funny that Harper would accuse anyone of aged ideologies when he favours the death penalty (abolished in 1976).