Green Party: Good for Canada?

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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You might be right, they're a one song band.

Last federal election, they had published a well-developed platform on their website. You only have o visit their wesite to see that they have a wide-ranging policy platform.

In some ways, the Green Party finds itself in a similar position as the Reform party in the beginning. In school we were taught about the historical roots of reform liberalism, and so at first I thought the Reform Party was likely a moderate-left leaning party, perhaps a kind of blue liberal party of sorts, owing to the word 'reform' in it, conjuring up the idea of 'reform liberalism'. As time went on and we'd here how it was a right-leaning party competing with the Progressive Conservative Party, and that it was probably even to the right of the conservatives, I started looking into it and lo and behold it really was quite a conservative party. For all we know, some moderate left voters looking for something slightly to the left of the Progressive Conservative Party likely voted for them the first time around if they hadn't done their homework, just as some conservatives likely criticized the reform Party initially before looking into it.

We find the same with the Green Party. It conjures ideas of Greenpeace, hippies, or the environment as a one-party issue in the mind of many who have not looked further into that party. As a result, just as some on the moderate left likely turned to the Reform party owing to its catchy name initially, so today we have some environmentalists joining the Green Party since they know so little about it. Just as those liberals who'd done their homework first did not fall into the trap of supporting the Reform Party simply owing to its name, so most hard-core environmentalists who've done their homework are not likely to join the Green Party. First off, it's environmental policies are criticized by many members of the NDP and Greenpeace for being too moderate. In fact I doubt you'll find many members if any of Greenpeace in the Green Party. They're more likely to be in the NDP.

Also, though the Green Party is a pacific party, it is by no means a pacifist party. It has a very cosmopolitan view of the world but still recognizes the validity of a just war, contrary to how some people might stereotype it.

Also (and strangely enough this falls into the whole Green philosophy), the Green Party is an economically conservative party. It had promised no overall tax increases last election, but only tax shifting instead. In fact in some areas it intended to promote deeper cuts than even Harper. In the all-candidates debate in English on the CBC, May had proposed income sharing for all income between a married couple, and Harper opposed it saying it would cause too much of a revenue loss for the government. Who's the conservative there? Now of course May retorted that that revenue loss would be compensated for via a gas tax. If we consider that a gas tax is more conservative than income tax since it makes road funding more user-pay for example, May actually came across as more conservative than Harper on the economic front on at least a few points. This is one reason I was quit disappointed in her for coming out and supporting the auto bailout last recession.

The Green Party is nothing like how people stereotype it. I can guarantee that it would not take long for a Greenpeace activist who'd join this party to realize he'd made a mistake. And strangely enough, on the economic front at least, the CPC would likely turn to the Green Party before any other major party in Canada to form a coalition, seeing that among the left-leaning parties in Canada, the Green Party is likely the most moderate of the pack, and as mentioned before, on some economic fronts at least, more conservative than even the CPC!

That said, I do oppose the Green Party on many fronts, but just pointing out that it's far from being a one-issue party and is indeed a complex party in its own right as far as parties go.


They will kill industry and what about their fiscal skills?

As mentioned above, the Green Party is officially even more economically conservative than the Conservative Party of Canada! Again, I wouldn't be so quick as to vote for a Green candidate next election though since there may be a few among their ranks I really wouldn't want to vote for. However, to dismiss a Green Party candidate just because of his party affiliation would be foolhardy. I wouldn't say go out and blindly vote for a Green Party candidate, but I would strongly advise you at least give him a chance. Last election, the Green Party candidate was the most lucid of the bunch in my riding. It does put out some quality candidates in some ridings.

The "Green" aspect is good, so one their wizards could run as a Liberal or a Conservative so we still get the benefit in Government.

If your concern is with getting real green representation in Parliament from a political party, why on earth would you want to vote for the Green Party when the NDP platform is in fact greener than that of the Green Party? Again, the Green Party is in fact a moderate environmentalist party. Sure it advertises itself as green, and indeed compared to most political parties in Canada it is green. But I can guarantee that if you ever faced a real race against the Greens and the NDP in an election, the NDP would exploit this to try to present itself as greener than the Greens.

You might be right, they're a one song band. They will kill industry and what about their fiscal skills? The "Green" aspect is good, so one their wizards could run as a Liberal or a Conservative so we still get the benefit in Government.

By the way, a one-issue party might not always be a bad thing as it would allow for much diversity of opinion on all other issues.

Since cash is handed out to all parties partly based on the number of people who vote for them, no vote is entirely wasted. You might want to consider voting for an obscure party just to annoy the others.

Here is what i'd typed in an earlier post in this thread:

(I think the money given to the party for each vote makes it harder for me to vote too unless I really like that candidate since I don't feel comfortable with my money going to a party I'm not a member of, and so if he's a party member I have to really really like him or I feel compelled to cast a blank ballot, which might explain that blank ballot too last election).

While I'm not saying that that alone made me cast a blank ballot, it certainly was a contributing factor, making it harder for me to vote for a party member, thus requiring him to stand out even more to be sure not only that he has earned my vote, but also my money for his party.

Looking at it that way, this policy might actually be hurting parties by encouraging more blank ballots being cast than would otherwise occur. Again, though this was not the deciding factor, I won't deny that I had thought of this during the election and that knowing that money was going to the parties irked me to no end. If I'm voting for a candidate, why the hell should his party benefit if I'm voting for him?

They get close to 10% of the voters, they've obviously proved themselves to some...Jack said they are not good for anybody. Well hundreds of thousands disagree.


You're making big assumptions here. I almost voted for a Green Party candidate last election, yet it had nothing to do with his party affiliation. Who knows, next election I just might vote for him. Looking at it that way, was that 10% spread evenly across the country? Let's say it was concentrated in a few ridings, then that might say more about the Green Party candidates for those ridings than for the party itself.


Yes, which is why I gave you a link to their website. You seemed to be talking about them without knowing anything about them. :smile:

I will agree that there does seem to be much ignorance of the Green Party overall, many beliefs about it being rooted in stereotypes.

I would agree with Y.J. simply because they haven't proven themselves anywhere in Canada yet. Y.J. and I have close to a century and a half between us & we just aren't easily fooled by these "Johnny Come Latelies". Anyone can write a platform -talk is cheap. :smile:

So are you telling me that a prerequisite for becoming an MP is to have been an MP?

If that's how you vote, then that's how you vote. Doesn't change my opinion that downplaying others' democratic choice as worthless is fascist.

Do you post on Rabble.ca by any chance? I'd noticed there that any time someone disagrees, suddenly the other is a 'racist' or 'fascist', etc. etc. etc.

Why can't such people not just explain their views rationally rather than just labeling. The right does it too I've noticed, but you seem to just be a left-variety of the same thing.

Realistically either the Liberals or the Conservatives will Govern for the next 100 years. They are both fairly moderate close to centre of the spectrum private enterprize parties. We sure as hell don't want to jump from the frying pan into the fire. Let's see what the Greens can do on a provincial basis before getting all excited about them federally.

Actually, seeing that provincial and federal mandates are totally different, there is no guarantee that a person who would not do well in provincial politics would not do well in federal politics. For example, if his forte is military, foreign affairs, fiscal, immigration or other such area, then provincial politics will not be for him.

And what would be wrong with a good candidate to make it to Parliament who happens to be a member of the Green Party? It would be a chance for him to prove himself, and if he does a good job, he's re-elected, gains further experience, etc.

Of course this does not give his party any more experience, but it does give him more experience. Same with any party.

Ms. May had to fight hard to be included in last the last election’s televised leaders debates, and she has the most difficult time getting her message across (as she is the only major federal player without any parliamentary representation).

As an aside, leaders' debates irritate me since they are flawed on so many levels. First off, they're not even running in the same riding. Secondly, the party leader's performance does not necessarily have any bearing on the quality of the local candidate for that party.

If you insist on having televised all-candidates' debates on local TV, I can certainly see the point in that. Otherwise, the national CBC should try to focus on things from a less partisan standpoint.

The Green Party may be inspired to push forward, given the recent election across the pond of the United Kingdom’s first Green Party member to the House of Commons.

The Federal Liberal Party is totally separate from the BC Liberals. So how much similarity is there between the Canadian Greens and the British Greens? Again, in the end it's the quality of the candidates that matters most.
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
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exactly, the Green Party has as much chance as winning as the Liberals winning Alberta and Saskatchewan.


Potentially a much better chance. If she ran out here against Ralph Goodale,
I'd vote for her.


Sure, why not. I can remember when we had the Social Credit party, with a few seats. The more the merrier, if they can win support in a riding. Personally, I think May's decision to run against Peter Mackay shows that she is not serious about sitting in the House. There is absolutely no way she could have beaten him in that riding, if she was interested in actually winning, she could have run somewhere that she had a chance.


Maybe I'm wrong, but didn't Elizabeth May publicly accept a Senate position
promised out by Stephan Dion during that Coalition attempt that didn't happen?

I thought she'd dumped the Green Party like yesterday's cheese burrito to accept
the promised position that never happened. As much integrity as most other
politicians though I guess. What the hay though.
 

Liberalman

Senate Member
Mar 18, 2007
5,623
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Toronto
Maybe I'm wrong, but didn't Elizabeth May publicly accept a Senate position
promised out by Stephan Dion during that Coalition attempt that didn't happen?

Mike Duffy got Ms May promised position in the Senate because he still has some respect.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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Fascism is a rejection of individualism. If you reject the democratic choices of others as worthless...that is rejecting individualism, and embracing fascism.

Oh boy we are getting deep here. I've never rejected the democratic choices of others as worthless. They probably did the same as what I often do at the polls- vote for the man, not the party. It's often the matter of casting a principled vote over a strategic vote, or more easily put supporting what you know to be good, knowing full well no good will ever come out of it except the man/woman will know he/she has been recognized at least.
 

wulfie68

Council Member
Mar 29, 2009
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The Green Party platform as a whole, I am more comfortable with than that of the NDP. The same goes for the goals of the party: I admire their passion to do what is best for the environment more than the NDP's march to create a people's republic.

When you get into leadership and strategy, thats where the Greens lose me. Elizabeth May's desire to go head to head with Conservative heavyweights is idiotic. If she wants to get in the Commons, she needs to use some strategy in choosing the riding she wants to run in, instead of always trying to pit herself in some David vs Goliath rematch. I also wasn't impressed with her deal making with Stephane Dion: if you want to lead a party thats supposed to be about change then show real leadership, don't jump into bed with members of the old establishment. I think her tactics have damaged her party's chances with a lot of Canadians that WANT something new to look at on election day...

Fascism is a rejection of individualism. If you reject the democratic choices of others as worthless...that is rejecting individualism, and embracing fascism.

You're defining totalitarianism more than fascism...
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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Oh boy we are getting deep here. I've never rejected the democratic choices of others as worthless.

No? So what is it that Jack said that you agree with then? What Jack said is that other peoples' democratic choice is worthless.

When you say that a specific political party is not good for anyone, then you're saying implicitly that their choice is worthless. If it's not a worthless choice, or if the choice has worth, then it can't very well be "not good for anybody".

Comprende?

You're making big assumptions here.

Yes...I'm assuming that when someone gets a vote, they have at the very least proven themself to be not wholly offensive. Whether it's a protest vote, or voters who actually agree with their stance, I'm assuming that getting votes means that the party isn't worthless, that it is good for some Canadians.

As we elect our representatives democratically, then I say, yes, they are good for Canada. Even separatists deserve representation.

Do you post on Rabble.ca by any chance? I'd noticed there that any time someone disagrees, suddenly the other is a 'racist' or 'fascist', etc. etc. etc.
No. Do I need to explain to you what fascism is? I said "fascist" to Jack, because that's exactly what his comment was, it was fascist.

Here's a blurb from wikipedia:

They claim that culture is created by collective national society and its state, that cultural ideas are what give individuals identity, and thus rejects individualism.[15] In viewing the nation as an integrated collective community, they see pluralism as a dysfunctional aspect of society, and justify a totalitarian state as a means to represent the nation in its entirety.[16][17] They advocate the creation of a single-party state
1. Jacks comment rejects individualism by claiming the Green party is not a good choice for anybody.
2. Pluralism is inclusive of more opinions, such as the Green party, not exclusive.
3. If you follow Jack's comments, you will notice that only one political ideology has been talked of favorably by him.

I don't know if he advocates a single party state, but his comment nonetheless is of a fascist bent. If he disagrees with that, well maybe he should do some reflective pondering.

As for me labeling him? This whole thread is about labels. A politcal party. A movement. Good or bad, all are labels. Labeling sometimes serves a purpose. I don't think Jack really wants to be a fascist...
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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Right, you said you agree with Jack. I don't happen to think of democratic worth based on whether or not my candidate won...
 

AnnaG

Hall of Fame Member
Jul 5, 2009
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So, if you have a platform based on one ideology, then your party is no good for anyone? That effectively rules out:

Conservatives, Liberals, Separtists, leaving us the NDP. A one party state.

Hurray....
The Glibs are different, though: their ideologies change with the tides, and change direction with the wind and sometimes they can't tell fart from wind. :D
 
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Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Oh boy we are getting deep here. I've never rejected the democratic choices of others as worthless. They probably did the same as what I often do at the polls- vote for the man, not the party. It's often the matter of casting a principled vote over a strategic vote, or more easily put supporting what you know to be good, knowing full well no good will ever come out of it except the man/woman will know he/she has been recognized at least.

That' essentially how I vote. Whether my candidate has a chance of winning or not is irrelevant. If I think he's the best candidate on the ballot, I can't in good conscience vote for second-worst just to keep the worst one out, because then I'm simply encouraging such political mediocrity.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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YES!! I think so. The more Green Parties in the World the better!!

:canada: :wav:
A least someone is thinking with something other than their wallet! Perhaps the Greens might not be good for the economy (speculation based on misinformation) but the economy is not good for people (or any other living thing - based on instability and environmental degradation) and remember folks: Ya can't eat money, or as the Furry Freak Brothers used to say, "Drugs will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no drugs."