Greatest Empire Ever

Bilton101

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Given the definition of "greatness" I'm getting from this thread, the American Empire is clearly the greatest.

First, though, we need to establish that America is an empire. An empire typically encompasses multiple "nations." The USA proper is not an empire at this point. Most everyone everywhere in the US from Alaska to Florida regard themselves as nationally American. However, the US does have foreign possessions that include groups that do not count themselves as American: American Samoa, Puerto Rico, various island groups, etc.

Now why is the USA the "greatest" empire? Let's count the qualifications for greatness as: Size, Military Power, Economic Power, Cultural Power, and Authority (authority: the ability to get what you want done by others or to be believed by others simply by saying so, rather than direct use of force.) Let's take the US at it's high point to date: around 1999. The United States clearly fails in size. It never constructed the huge sort of empire that the European powers could because it was too young during the main bursts of colonisation. However, it is quite large (currently the 3rd largest country in the world by land mass, as well as in terms of population.) The United States more makes up for that shortcoming in military power. The USA has the most advanced military in the world in proportion to all other militaries. This is significant because while the British armed forces, Russian Imperial forces (in the early 1700s), Ottoman and Roman forces were all more advanced than other states', they were still relatively close in terms of technological advances. The USA, though, has military technology far outstripping its next closest competitors (probably the UK, France, and just maybe Russia.) The US Navy is capable of projecting power far inland, and, much as the British Empire's once did, is widely credited with ensuring the security of the world's waterways, giving the US extraordinary direct hard power over the global economy. Furthermore, the USA in 1999 had a virtually monopoly on space. Finally, the US has more serviceable nukes than anyone. If worst comes to worst, America can blow any nation off the face of the earth and if it doesn't have nukes, the likelihood of retaliation in kind by a nuclear power is virtually nil. Now on to economic power: the United States in 1999 (and still mostly does) comprised the global economic infrastructure. The US bought everything from everyone, our dollar was the international currency, and we had (and have) the largest and most powerful economy there is. In terms of cultural or soft power, the United States has Hollywood, most of the major media services, is effectively the "home" of the internet, had enormous respect abroad thanks to the triumph over the Soviet Empire, is the largest English speaking nation, possesses the worlds largest multinational corporations, and has the best universities in the world. Now for authority. The USA could get pretty much whatever it wanted done just by asking. The US's military, economic, and diplomatic prowess were unmatched and the States were widely viewed a "positive force" in the world.

The US simply was (and still is) the closest thing the world has ever had to a global hegemon. And certainly still is a regional hegemon (no offence meant to the Canadians.) And that position was further reaffirmed and entrenched by something relatively new: international law. International law, by my view, doesn't matter for much, but it does have some importance, and the vast majority of world institutions were made by or with the USA and thrived thanks to America's support, this resulted in institutions that favour the status quo of US dominance. (Which is why George Bush's insistence on ignoring international institutions and norms to pursue some sort of dogmatic independent-minded nationalism is arguably the most idiotic thing he could do.)

So in the end, the USA in 1999 is the resounding choice for all possible assessments of "greatness," except for size which in the modern day is both an obsolete measure and which is made up for by just how far ahead America is in all the other categories.

PS- The level of mindless nationalism, hatred and inability to view past events through a historical lens is extraordinary. I think it can be agreed that the British Empire was worse for the world than the US Empire. It had a lot longer to screw things up, and it existed in a time when overt colonialism was totally acceptable and not only politically palatable, but in fact desirable. All Western (and most non-western) cultures avidly pursued empire, as such it is entirely unreasonable to pass judgment on these empires based on modern perceptions and morals. American territory would've been imperialised by someone. Africa would have been dominated by one group or another. Debating the legitimacy of past action based on modern standards will do nothing to promote the stability and prosperity of the modern political situation.
 

darkbeaver

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Talmudic Zion, 3700 yrs of continuity and enormous power wealth. Never as powerful as it is today and never as close to completion of it's ancient mandate. Directly delivered unto thier mouths by Dog himself.
 

Andem

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@ Bilton101: While the US is and was certainly powerful, a lot of what you've mentioned is all great in theory but the US hasn't even been able to defeat small countries like Iraq, Vietnam, Korea. If their military might was really so great, I would have thought they would have been able to take any country they wanted like the British did.
 

Bilton101

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Feb 1, 2008
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This is a reasonable point, however, we must also keep in mind the changes in warfare. The British only had to fight states or otherwise massacre whole tribes sufficiently to ensure they could not fight back.

The USA is not in the same political situation. In Iraq, America did defeat the Iraqi state, but now it faces asymmetrical warfare, and unlike the British, the USA can't just go in and kill as many people as possible to put down insurrection. Because of modern media and the highly democratized nature of America, any effort to do so would result (rightfully so) in immediate public objection.

The cases of Vietnam and Korea, both of which I could easily argue as potential victories in different ways, are irrelevant. We're talking about America at the height of its power in the late 90s. Vietnam and Korea occurred during a time when there was a parallel power to fight against the US, a power which also had a home-court advantage.


Now the British could go and colonize whomever they wanted; they were powerful enough for that. The British could handily defeat any two nations together at sea. That was, in fact, national policy. However, the British Empire certainly could not bring down any single state, which the United States certainly could. The Empire could not have invaded France and defeat them. Nor Germany, nor Russia, nor Austria-Hungary. Let us recall that when WWI broke out, Britain was likely close to the greatest power it had ever reached. It could not, though, prevent the advances of one strong country and 3 extraordinarily weak countries despite the support of many other reasonably strong countries. The United States was needed to come help out.

So in short, the USA could topple any single state in the world with its military, a feat unimaginable by any previous empire.
 

darkbeaver

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Actually the American Empire has defeated ,destroyed and sacked every economy it ever touched, conquest was revolutionized by modern banking many generations ago.Warfare changed long ago as well, imperialism has more than a geographic face these days, all though the geographic reality is still very much a fact armed outposts and all, control od air and sea lanes to boot.
The Criminalization of the State: "Independent Kosovo", a Territory under US-NATO Military Rule - by Michel Chossudovsky - 2008-02-04

camp bondsteel the Balkan beginning
 

karrie

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Jan 6, 2007
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I'm totally confused by what I've read of this thread.

America can't even enter the contest, let alone be declared 'greatest empire' so the arguments are all kind of moot. If I know anything about American history the US is a republic, not an empire. Or are we all just sort of ignoring that? Am I being too technical in terminology?
 

Lester

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The Romans -they left us with so much- architecture, Art,Culture, The Republic, our language has a lot of it's roots in latin- Briton was occupied by the Romans and Rome's influence is still there today.
 

Bilton101

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Karrie, your point is well-raised, but one can be at once a republic and an empire. A very common modern definition of "empire" (since the days of emperors are long gone) is a "state which comprises many nations." The USA certainly has a state which comprises many nations: American Indians, Somoans, Puerto Ricans, the list goes on. Many of these lands were taken by conquest, if that is also to be one of the requirements to define an empire.

For example, the French Colonial Empire existed under several Republics.

PS- darkbeaver, let us recall that the USA single-handed reflated the European economy, which comprises 13 of the 20 largest economies in the world with the Marshall Plans. Also lets note very closely that the two most integrated economies in the world are without doubt the US and Canadian economies. Canada isn't doing too badly.
 

darkbeaver

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I'm totally confused by what I've read of this thread.

America can't even enter the contest, let alone be declared 'greatest empire' so the arguments are all kind of moot. If I know anything about American history the US is a republic, not an empire. Or are we all just sort of ignoring that? Am I being too technical in terminology?


American imperialism is a fact, it has overlap with the wider western empire, both vasal to the banking empire. Together they make up the western world. England was a paliamentry democracy and empire at the same time.One's a state of domestic governance and the other a economic and military reality with the added twentyth century twist of cultural conquest. Yeah you're being too technical, way too technical.
 

Bilton101

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Well, she's not being too technical, she's just using an older definition. My definition is one that has been treated as relatively standard, while yours is a new and somewhat contentious one (although I believe it to be a very good one which is pertinent to the modern state of world affairs.)
 

darkbeaver

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Karrie, your point is well-raised, but one can be at once a republic and an empire. A very common modern definition of "empire" (since the days of emperors are long gone) is a "state which comprises many nations." The USA certainly has a state which comprises many nations: American Indians, Somoans, Puerto Ricans, the list goes on. Many of these lands were taken by conquest, if that is also to be one of the requirements to define an empire.

For example, the French Colonial Empire existed under several Republics.

PS- darkbeaver, let us recall that the USA single-handed reflated the European economy, which comprises 13 of the 20 largest economies in the world with the Marshall Plans. Also lets note very closely that the two most integrated economies in the world are without doubt the US and Canadian economies. Canada isn't doing too badly.

Yes it did. And why did it do that? It did that to erect and maintain economic border between two competing spheres of power specifally to set up the feeding trough called the western economy a trough for the military industrial complex which drove an enormous part of the American economy both in Europe and Asia this fueled further military buildup which enabled further corporate and industrial conquest and opening up of entire regions to American resource stripping. Classic imperialism the military drives ahead clears the indiginous industrys and natives to the sidelines installs puppet governments and milks the vassalized states literally to death. We would be intigrated with any empire America is the third of the modern era, France Britian and now America relatively soon we'll be great trading partners with the Chinese if we can avoid the economic collapse of the American empire and the ensueing police state. In review of the reinflation of the countrys destroyed by the allies we can seee that the American economy got every dollar back many many times over, empires don't give anything away never have never will, the asset pipe goes one way despite what it might look like. You might want to reconsider your "single handed" idea, as there were more than one hand in the pocket of europe, big money ain't got no soul.
 

Bilton101

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You are right. We did benefit massively, but so did Western European economies. Benefit is not wrong. The point, though, is still that the statement that the USA "defeated ,destroyed and sacked every economy it ever touched" is fundamentally false.
 

darkbeaver

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You are right. We did benefit massively, but so did Western European economies. Benefit is not wrong. The point, though, is still that the statement that the USA "defeated ,destroyed and sacked every economy it ever touched" is fundamentally false.

Fundamentally that's the way it works man. Big economys destroy smaller ones, an economy is an extension of military and political power. Full spectrum domination Bilton, get your facts straightened out in your head. The economys of the western world are as integrated as Nato is, America is just the biggest most powerful piece but power is very quickly transferrable now, as the American economic disaster unfolds we will see military and economic power shift to safer zones like say the UAE and surrounding areas. What country have I overlooked when I stated defeated destroyed and sacked?
 

Bilton101

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It's very kind of you to care about me getting my facts straight so much, but I think it might be a good idea to review basic economics. First of all, the USA is not facing an economic disaster. It's facing a dramatic market correction which has been a long time coming due to unbalanced trade situations. And big economies do not necessarily destroy smaller ones. Politics can, but does not always. Why doesn't it? Because people to trade with, people to buy your government's debt, people to supply you with your goods are all necessary. A certain level of economic well-being, especially among allies is always valuable to a state.

It is mostly accurate to say the economic power is being redistributed right now, once again due to market imbalances. In any case, the USA has had its hands in every major Western European Economy, and they are all in pretty good shape: England, France, Germany, and Italy all have basically sound economic systems which are suffering somewhat only from socialist policies created by their own leaders, not by the USA.
 

Lester

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time

the USA has had its hands in every major Western European Economy,
Yes and they have their hands in your pocket, China for one- if it so chooses could reduce your dollar to toilet paper if they decide to rid themselves of the 1.1 trillion dollars in securitie they presently hold- once they dumped it every other country would hop on the bandwagon not wanting to be the last one out.
 

Bilton101

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This is true, and the global economic infrastructure would go with it. It's not being melodramatic, it's just a fact, the US dollar is still the dominant currency of reserve, so a massive devaluation of the dollar would result effectively in governments, corporations, and individuals going bankrupt everywhere. China would lose its markets abroad that have allowed it to build up these huge currency reserves, and its economy would collapse too. China is tied to our debt. They crash the dollar, their economy goes too. So, until the US Government defaults on its debt, which it is unlikely to ever do, or otherwise the US government implodes or suffers a massive loss of power, the dollar is fine.

It's my assessment that even in the case of war between China and the USA, the USA would simply renig its debt to all enemies while simultaneously, reassuring all allied and neutral states with higher interest rates.
 

Lester

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That would be a prudent strategy- but many economies are slowly cashing us securities in, it only takes one to panic and send the market into a free fall, to have so much debt abroad is a perilous strategy that could inadvertantly send a lot of economies into a tail spin- The US enemies do not sit on their hands- The U.S. is hacked everyday by the Chinese they are learning more and more about you all the time.
 

Bilton101

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You're right. You're very very right. However, don't think for a second that other countries would not safeguard themselves and their investments by buying US currency as it's being sold off. For example, the Bank of Japan has made a habit of bolstering the dollar. Persian Gulf nations need a robust USA to sell their oil to, and they're the ones sitting on the mountains of cash. This is without mentioning that nearly half of US Debt is still held domestically, an important buffer. Furthermore, don't think for a second that the USA wouldn't take instant action. The USA doubtless is aware of the dangerous amount of debt it has abroad and has plans in place. It seems likely that the US gold, platinum, and oil reserves could be used as a tool to help secure the currency, for example.

The shift has been gradual and healthy and will continue to be so. The market is too well-regulated for the world's lone hyperpower to allow its currency to collapse. And the well-being of too many economies, individuals, and companies require a stable dollar

Finally, exports account for a tiny proportion of the US economy. Exports form the backbone of the Chinese economy. China, therefore, has much more to lose by destroying the global economy by catastrophically devaluing the dollar. The US economy would tumble and tumble hard, but not nearly so hard as its main rival, China's. It's absurd to suggest that China would provoke the US to war by destroying its economy and then put itself at a disadvantage. (not to mention: the USA still has many more nukes than China... China's not going to risk that.) No, if China wants war, it will invade Taiwan. This invasion would provoke global sell-off of the dollar, but in the case of an invasion, the USA would likely have enough warning to cancel its debt to China and promptly reaffirm all friendly owners of debt with higher interest rates. This would still be exceptionally economically damaging, but would handily ruin China's finances, vastly reduce US national debt, and preclude the disaster that could happen otherwise.

EDIT- actually, I was also just thinking... in the case of massive sell-offs, it seems likely that major instruments of US power abroad would also be forced into action. Take, for example, the IMF which has hundreds of billions of dollars available in quotas and 100 billion in gold.
 

Lester

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There will soon be three hyper powers US, China and the EU- much more interesting than just the US and USSR days(Russia/Gazprom are over) - wars of the future may be comprised of winning the hearts, minds and wallets of people not bombing them into submission this is the primary mission of the EU and China it's investment they offer not domination