Grace and Karma

[BaalsTears]

What is grace? What is Karma? Are they compatible? Are they mutually exclusive?

I'm going to shoot from the hip on this. Grace for me is a sort of intellectual peace...an enlightened acceptance and understanding of the nature of reality...both internal and external and how they fit together.

Karma can be viewed as the application of grace in real life.

Grace and karma can coincide, but they don't have to. Grace requires understanding. Karma requires action.

 

[darkbeaver]

Beavs, you're killing me.

I think it's more likely your sinful willful ignorance of the force Christ that's killing you. You can't have grace until you have knowledge and that means extricating yourself from the error of clinging to a two thousand year old lie. The Christ story is repeated hundreds of time in the ten thousand years of history before the type Jesus.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Aren't you a little curious as to why the Holy Spirit is after you?

Not any more, in fact I no longer believe it is, because I no longer believe that it, or any other member of Trinity, actually exists. These are all things I worked through during my apostasy, which was no sudden insight but a complex and difficult emotional and intellectual process that took several years. The world makes much better sense to me now than it did based on anything my religious upbringing gave me, and I feel better for it. Most days, I feel I have escaped something misleading and dangerous.

 

[Cliffy]

Dexter, I don't think you're the sort that is prone to madness. Aren't you a little curious as to why the Holy Spirit is after you? People don't send out the gospel - the Holy Spirit does. He must have his reasons for choosing this corner of the earth.

Mmmm! It is cj44 who is after Dexter and is posing as the holy spook. I have had a hundred, if not more born againers after me over the last 40 years and they have had no affect on my faith in life. Why? Because they are so far out in left field that they don't even register on the Rectum Scale. Oooops! In mean Richter Scale. The Beav has much more insight to dispense on matters of god and Jesus, and he and I are in different ball parks.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Yeah, the Beave and I are in different ball parks too, but the lad has depth alright.

 

[cj44]

Mmmm! It is cj44 who is after Dexter and is posing as the holy spook. I have had a hundred, if not more born againers after me over the last 40 years and they have had no affect on my faith in life. Why? Because they are so far out in left field that they don't even register on the Rectum Scale. Oooops! In mean Richter Scale. The Beav has much more insight to dispense on matters of god and Jesus, and he and I are in different ball parks.

Cliffy, It is all so very odd. I am wearing a t-shirt that says that very thing....holy spook

Now come on Cliffy - how nice that God sent at least 100 "born againers" to you.

Dexter, May I ask what denomination you were brought up in?

I think it's more likely your sinful willful ignorance of the force Christ that's killing you. You can't have grace until you have knowledge and that means extricating yourself from the error of clinging to a two thousand year old lie. The Christ story is repeated hundreds of time in the ten thousand years of history before the type Jesus.

No. I'm fairly certain that you are killing me.
Beavs you turn grace on its head and put it in a blender.

 

[Cliffy]

Cliffy, It is all so very odd. I am wearing a t-shirt that says that very thing....holy spook

Now come on Cliffy - how nice that God sent at least 100 "born againers" to you.

If I believed in satan, I would say it was he who sent them to spew their delusional silliness at me. Jesus, mythical being or a real person, had a very beautiful message to bring humanity and born againers completely screwed it up listening to the twerp Paul. Benny Hinn takes absurdity to new levels of ridiculous.

 

[L Gilbert]

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—"
Indeed, our DNA, our natures are sinful - no free will. Hey Gilbert - looks like we might agree.

I don't think so. I don't think everyone is sinful nor do I think humans are born sinful.

 

[darkbeaver]

I just want to feed one of them to a lion, please God just one.

They are too thin for lions though.

The Christians are ruining the Christian discussion.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Dexter, May I ask what denomination you were brought up in?

Yes you may, and I'll even answer.

It's not easy to define, really, it wasn't Catholic or any of the major Protestant denominations, it was something I think my parents largely invented on their own. My mother was raised United Church, my dad was raised Presbyterian, and when they moved west from Ontario they tried to join the Quaker community near Borden, Saskatchewan, and I think Quakerism is probably the best representation of their views. The dour old elders rejected them because my mother liked to wear bright print dresses, a little too flamboyant for them I think. I grew up with a mix of all three, but it was the United Church I was baptized in.

It was by no means all bad, the Quakers in particular I still think have some very good ideas, like what my parents called the rule of three: if something or someone vexes you once, it's trivial, let it go by, if it vexes you a second time, give it some serious thought but remain silent, if it vexes you a third time, it's legitimate, speak up. We weren't church goers, but there was instruction at home, formal and informal, grace before meals, nightly prayers before bed, stuff like that, and we all had our own Bible from a very early age. I think I was the only one who actually read it all, and I still have the one my mother gave me, inscribed "For my much loved eldest son." I now think my parents were wrong about a lot of things in this context, but there wasn't much else they were wrong about, and they sure loved and cared for us well. There's not a day goes by that I don't miss them, and I'd love to believe that there's some part of their personalities still out there and I'll be able to talk to them again some day. But I don't.

 

[cj44]

What exactly did these born againers say to you cliffy? Yes, good old Benny had a real racket going. Why look to him for any ounce of truth?

Beavs!!!! You want to feed me to a lion?

Dexter, thanks for the reply. I like the rule of three - there's much wisdom there.
What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—

 

[Motar]

What is grace?

Grace is unmerited favor. Grace gives.

In Scripture and in the person of Jesus Christ, I discovered grace and truth together. I wondered how grace and truth could harmonize. Grace gives. Truth demands. Yet here they are together in Christ:

"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth ... For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." (John 1:14,17 NIV)

So grace and truth are necessary coworkers. Grace alone is impotent, producing over-indulged children. Truth unchecked by grace is brutal, resulting in demoralized offspring. Grace saves and truth sanctifies. Grace and truth work together. A spoonful of sugar (grace) helps the medicine (truth) go down : )

 

[Cliffy]

What exactly did these born againers say to you cliffy? Yes, good old Benny had a real racket going. Why look to him for any ounce of truth?

Not much different than what you have been saying. It is all delusional nonsense to me. It is quite different when someone is in your face than reading it on a forum. They have all been rather aggressive, judgmental and condemning. Sometimes they may even pretend to be caring until you tell them out right that you don't buy their spiel, then they either go off like a fire cracker or just shun you forever. I have met one or two who have actually embodied Christ like behaviour but the vast majority are too busy being self righteous jerks to bother with. Like the Beav said, Christians today give Christianity a bad name.

 

[Motar]

First, the law as laid out in the Old Testament is pretty nasty. It includes prescriptions that are criminal offenses in any civilized society, like stoning a stubborn and rebellious son to death, stoning adulterers to death, killing people who work on the Sabbath, wear clothes made of two different kinds of fibres, plant two different crops in the same field and, as Sam Harris pointed out, mandate savage penalties for imaginary crimes. There are 613 such rules according to the rabbinical tradition, mostly laid out in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, and they describe an extraordinarily brutal totalitarian society.

Dex, would you please identify by book, chapter and verse(s) (some) of the Old Testament laws that you find offensive? Thanks.

 

[cj44]

Not much different than what you have been saying. It is all delusional nonsense to me. It is quite different when someone is in your face than reading it on a forum. They have all been rather aggressive, judgmental and condemning. Sometimes they may even pretend to be caring until you tell them out right that you don't buy their spiel, then they either go off like a fire cracker or just shun you forever. I have met one or two who have actually embodied Christ like behaviour but the vast majority are too busy being self righteous jerks to bother with. Like the Beav said, Christians today give Christianity a bad name.

Cliffy - If I am being too aggressive tell me and I will turn the burners down. Hard to communicate on a forum. Sometimes I use the wrong words to convey meaning and I might come off a little overboard. I'm different in person. When sharing the gospel I ususally duct tape the person to the red oak outside until they confess Jesus as their savior. Then I tell them, "get to confessin or I will have Alfredo the chipmunk and Frank the squirrel get to working on you. They have unusual methods."

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Dex, would you please identify by book, chapter and verse(s) (some) of the Old Testament laws that you find offensive? Thanks.

Have you not read Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy? I've already provided some examples, you know perfectly well they're legitimate if you've read the books, open them at random, you're bound to find something offensive. But some other kind soul has already done some of it for me:

"Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality, known as Dr. Laura, who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that as an observant Orthodox Jew homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned in any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet.

Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)"

 

[Motar]

Have you not read Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy? I've already provided some examples, you know perfectly well they're legitimate if you've read the books, open them at random, you're bound to find something offensive. But some other kind soul has already done some of it for me:

"Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality, known as Dr. Laura, who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that as an observant Orthodox Jew homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned in any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet.

Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)"

Thanks, Dex. So which example in particular would you like to discuss?

 

[Cliffy]

Thanks, Dex. So which example in particular would you like to discuss?

I hope you are joking. What is to discuss. Those are 3000 year old Jewish laws, not god's laws. As Luis Black said, "we Jews needed those laws because we were three hairs short of being baboons. If you want to know what the OT is about, just ask a Jew and they will take time out of their very Jewy, Jewy day and tell you.... for a price."

 

[L Gilbert]

What exactly did these born againers say to you cliffy? Yes, good old Benny had a real racket going. Why look to him for any ounce of truth?

Beavs!!!! You want to feed me to a lion?

Dexter, thanks for the reply. I like the rule of three - there's much wisdom there.
What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,yand what no human mind has conceived”—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—

I have heard a few versions (Bible-based) about what has been prepared in heaven for people. Much of it scares me and I am not easily scared. An eternity for starters. Most people have no concept of what eternity means and I get bored easily. No food; one of my favorite things will be denied me. Sharing sex with someone is another. There's likely more. If something happens to me to make me accept an eternity, then part of my spirit dies. Same for food n sex.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Thanks, Dex. So which example in particular would you like to discuss?

As Cliffy said, what's to discuss? You were the one who asked for chapter and verse, I was simply pointing out how barbaric some of them are, and they speak for themselves in that regard. Is there some point you want to make about them?