Grace and Karma

[Motar]

Are you suggesting that my Parents were more righteous, forgiving, and Loving then the Almighty Father?

No, Gerry. Are you?

So how does one leave karma (the law) behind and take up grace and truth?

Biographer Louis Fischer shares the conversion recipe of M. K. Gandhi:

"The shreds of individuality cannot be sewed together with a bayonet; nor can democracy be restored according to the Biblical injunction of an “eye for an eye” which, in the end, would make everybody blind. Any attempt to introduce democracy or to check totalitarianism must constantly emphasize the rehabilitation of personality. Freedom and responsibility help. Rigid authority hinders... Satyagraha is peaceful. If words fail to convince the adversary perhaps purity, humility, and honesty will. The opponent must be 'weaned from error by patience and sympathy,' weaned, not crushed; converted, not annihilated. Satyagraha is the exact opposite of the policy of an-eye-for-an-eye-for-an-eye-for-an-eye which ends in making everybody blind. You cannot inject new ideas into a man’s head by chopping it off; neither will you infuse a new spirit into his heart by piercing it with a dagger." An Eye for an Eye Will Make the Whole World Blind | Quote Investigator

Gandhi suggests that "personality rehabilitation" is at the heart of conversion, promoting satyagraha as the means to this end:

"Satyagraha can be understood as the vast inner strength required to perform nonviolent acts. Gandhi coined the word Satyagraha in 1908, meaning “clinging to truth” (Sanskrit)..." Satyagraha - Metta Center

In summary, in an environment of freedom and a spirit of responsibility, an individual may respond to peaceful purity, humility, honesty, patience and sympathy on the part of a truthful witness.

Where does one find such circumstances and witnesses?

 

[Cliffy]

Gandhi suggests that "personality rehabilitation" is at the heart of conversion, promoting satyagraha as the means to this end:

"Satyagraha can be understood as the vast inner strength required to perform nonviolent acts. Gandhi coined the word Satyagraha in 1908, meaning “clinging to truth” (Sanskrit)..." Satyagraha - Metta Center

In summary, in an environment of freedom and a spirit of responsibility, an individual may respond to peaceful purity, humility, honesty, patience and sympathy on the part of a truthful witness.

Where does one find such circumstances and witnesses?

All over the planet. People are a product of their environment. The truth is everywhere, not just in the bible and good people are those who have found peace within themselves and their beliefs. Being good is a choice and many people have witnessed this with their own eyes, have seen the glory of Love manifest if the actions of all living beings, not just humans.

350-Pound Lion and Tiny Dog are ADORABLE Best Friends! - Cute Videos

 

[Dexter Sinister]

What is grace? What is Karma?

I know of no reason to think either of them exist as they're usually defined. Grace as god's unmerited favour... to an atheist that's pretty much incoherent. Karma as the "what goes around comes around" idea has some merit in a fairly trivial sense, in that if you're rude and nasty to people you're likely to get it back, and if you're nice to people they're more likely to be nice to you, but to think there's some spiritual force in the cosmos that's evening things out, nope, no reason to think there's any such thing.

 

[Motar]

Gandhi suggests that "personality rehabilitation" is at the heart of conversion, promoting satyagraha as the means to this end: "Satyagraha can be understood as the vast inner strength required to perform nonviolent acts. Gandhi coined the word Satyagraha in 1908, meaning “clinging to truth” (Sanskrit)..." Satyagraha - Metta Center

In summary, in an environment of freedom and a spirit of responsibility, an individual may respond to peaceful purity, humility, honesty, patience and sympathy on the part of a truthful witness. Where does one find such circumstances and witnesses?

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” (Matthew 11:28-30 NIV)

 

[cj44]

Cliffy, thanks for your clarification on Karma.

 

[Cliffy]

Cliffy, thanks for your clarification on Karma.

You're welcome, but that is a Readers Digest of the topic. I do not think that karma is the same as the Hindus see it nor is reincarnation.

 

[Motar]

Yup, I'm supposed to read this twerp eh? Once again bringing OT covenants into the NT when Christ brought a New covenant.

By the term "twerp", do you refer to Moses, Jesus or John, Gerry?

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:17-20 NIV)

To what "law" and "prophets" does Jesus refer in the preceding passage?

 

[cj44]

"To what "law" and "prophets" does Jesus refer in the preceding passage?"
The 10 commandments/moral laws and the teachings/revelations of the prophets - all prophets including Moses. Jesus did not come to invalidate the law/10 commandments. Jesus emphasizes deeper understanding of what the law actually requires. "I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell-fire." This is proper understanding of the commandment "Thou shalt not murder."

Christ affirms that the Law shall be retained - he has not come to do away with the law. People may think they are accepted by God because they have never murdered anyone. In this sense, people mistakenly imagine they are able to keep the 10 commandments. Christ's teaching is radically different. According to Christ's expository, everyone feels (or certainly should) feel the weight of the law on their conscience. Suddenly, they see that they too are sinners.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

According to Christ's expository, everyone feels (or certainly should) feel the weight of the law on their conscience. Suddenly, they see that they too are sinners.

That's one of the key points that stops me. Well, actually two of them.

First, the law as laid out in the Old Testament is pretty nasty. It includes prescriptions that are criminal offenses in any civilized society, like stoning a stubborn and rebellious son to death, stoning adulterers to death, killing people who work on the Sabbath, wear clothes made of two different kinds of fibres, plant two different crops in the same field and, as Sam Harris pointed out, mandate savage penalties for imaginary crimes. There are 613 such rules according to the rabbinical tradition, mostly laid out in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, and they describe an extraordinarily brutal totalitarian society.

Second, the claim that I'm a sinner through no fault of my own but due to the errors of (fictional) people who supposedly lived thousands of generations ago seems to me not simply stupid, but actively wicked, as does the followup claim that a single human sacrifice is the way out of that. Stripped of its religious niceties and mystical overtones, the story is that a talking serpent duped a gullible woman into eating the fruit of a magic tree, she duped her equally gullible partner into eating it too, and as a result we all have an evil spell on our souls that can be magically removed only if we accept the efficacy of a brutal human sacrifice, believe the right things, and follow the proper rituals.

It eludes me how any thinking person can buy a story like that.

 

[L Gilbert]

IMO, karma = what goes around comes around so if someone's a nasty piece of work, people are likely to return it to him/her.
Grace to me is being coordinated enough not to trip over your own feet.

 

[cj44]

I'll contend with your second point as time is limited, but my brain even more so. I'll let Motar handle your first point.

Forget Adam, Eve & the snake. Is there sin in the world - murder, hate, lying, lack of compassion, etc. etc.? Why are we humans not glorious works of compassion and peace? Where did the "evil" come from?

As for Christ's atoning sacrfice - it is most certainly brutal and you think more rightly of it than some I sit next to in the pews on Sunday. It is no small matter to be glossed over. What kind of thing is this that we are to believe? In regards to your comments - "believe the right things & follow the proper rituals" - there is only one thing to believe. No rituals required, actually riutal is in opposition to faith. So, here is the one thing to believe - I am a sinner. God Hates Sin. The penalty according to God for Sin is death. Jesus died in our place. Place your faith in Jesus - believe rightly on Him in this regard and your sins are not counted against you.

Absolutely Crazy! How can anyone believe it? Well, you can't. Yet, God provides a way for belief. He sends the Holy Spirit to convince because how else will anyone be able to believe. Now, don't say to yourself. "Well then, I am free and clear. The Holy Spirit hasn't convinced me so why bother". Maybe instead, go after God and genuinely ask him about it. And, though you may imagine the Bible to be fable, what's the harm in reading a book or two. Read John especially chapters 15 - 18. Seek and you shall find. Seek: to attempt and desire to find something. Actively seek even though it goes against all your common sense, reason and judgement.

 

[L Gilbert]

I'll contend with your second point as time is limited, but my brain even more so. I'll let Motar handle your first point.

Forget Adam, Eve & the snake. Is there sin in the world - murder, hate, lying, lack of compassion, etc. etc.?

Some people call it that. To me it's just antisocial behavior.

Why are we humans not glorious works of compassion and peace? Where did the "evil" come from?

We are products of our environment, past, present, and even to a small degree, future and also products of our DNA. Some people are lazy, even in thought, so they choose the simplest and easiest ways to benefit their lives (or what they think will benefit them). Some people give in to their emotions too easily. Some people are strong-willed. Some people are prone to addictions. We are all subject to the electro-chemical activities in our brains. That is where our behaviors come from. Therefore, there is no such thing as free will. Everything we are is totally controlled by our DNA and brains.

 

[darkbeaver]

The Law

As pre-human animals we lived without Law, says Paul. Hear his words: "I lived at one time without Law myself, but when

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the command came home to me, sin sprang to life, and I died; the command that meant life proved death to me. The command gave an impulse to sin, sin beguiled me and used the command to kill me. . . . Sin resulted in death for me by making use of this good thing. The interests of the flesh meant death. . . ." Here are words of unmistakable meaning: the command that meant life to us proved to be, theologically, our death. Had scholar’s known Paul’s background of Greek philosophy, they would have known that he was discoursing on death as the incarnation of the soul in mortal body. The Law (appropriately spelled by Moffatt with a capital L) here spoken of, which is so large a feature in Paul’s theology, and which has been so crassly misunderstood by interpreters in Christendom, is that great ordinance of Nature which requires every form of unfolding life to be buried periodically in the soil of the kingdom below it, take root there, and out of a union with its elements, bring to birth the new generation of its own life. It is the Great Breath of Brahm, ceaselessly repeated. Cosmically it is the birth and death of universes; for man it is his continuing rebirth in human form till perfection or godhead is attained. The language of St. Paul in speaking of it, perhaps mutilated by hostile Christian copyists, must ever remain mystifying until for "death" one reads "incarnation". Under this touch a flood of sublime sense is at once released upon the passages.New Lectures on the Ancient Wisdom--No

 

[cj44]

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—"
Indeed, our DNA, our natures are sinful - no free will. Hey Gilbert - looks like we might agree.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Actively seek even though it goes against all your common sense, reason and judgement.

And knowledge. No, I don't think I will, that sounds like a short trip to madness to me. And on your question, where does all this "evil" come from, there's only one possible source, the entity that supposedly created everything, and there is a passage in the OT--don't have my reference material with me at the moment--where god explicitly claims credit for it.

 

[cj44]

Beavs, Certainly a flood of something was released upon the passage, but I wouldn't define it as sublime.

Paul is not talking about death as in his carcass filled with maggots and he no longer had breath in him. Rather, the law slays him - it convicts him of the depth of his sin. It is not good enough to not murder. Rather, as Jesus taught, we are guilty of murder if we hate. Really, the entire passage best explains.

What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

 

[darkbeaver]

That Satan and Jesus are identical is as true as that Sut and Horus in Egypt are twins! The god and devil are kindred. They are full brothers. Their mother is one. They are the two aspects or manifestations of the same force. It may be said that the evil character is the good seen in reversed reflec-

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tion on earth. For an ancient esoteric adage in Latin ran: DEMON EST DEUS INVERSUS, "the devil is the god turned upside down." Satan is the god in incarnation; or he is the god as he appears after his nature has been diffracted in its passage through the blurred medium of earth life. The devil is the god transformed in

 

[cj44]

And knowledge. No, I don't think I will, that sounds like a short trip to madness to me. And on your question, where does all this "evil" come from, there's only one possible source, the entity that supposedly created everything, and there is a passage in the OT--don't have my reference material with me at the moment--where god explicitly claims credit for it.

Dexter, I don't think you're the sort that is prone to madness. Aren't you a little curious as to why the Holy Spirit is after you? People don't send out the gospel - the Holy Spirit does. He must have his reasons for choosing this corner of the earth.

 

[darkbeaver]

He had to learn grace by contacting guilt.

 

[cj44]

That Satan and Jesus are identical is as true as that Sut and Horus in Egypt are twins! The god and devil are kindred. They are full brothers. Their mother is one. They are the two aspects or manifestations of the same force. It may be said that the evil character is the good seen in reversed reflec-

333​

tion on earth. For an ancient esoteric adage in Latin ran: DEMON EST DEUS INVERSUS, "the devil is the god turned upside down." Satan is the god in incarnation; or he is the god as he appears after his nature has been diffracted in its passage through the blurred medium of earth life. The devil is the god transformed in

Beavs, you're killing me.