Good argument for gun control

PoliticalNick

The Troll Bashing Troll
Mar 8, 2011
7,940
0
36
Edson, AB
I disagree.

People who openly advocate the cold blooded murder of unarmed civilians, or civil authorities merely doing their job, should not be allowed to own firearms.

So the govts who invaded Afghanistan & Iraq and bombed the sh*t out of Lybia along with many other govts shouldn't be allowed weapons then?

You make me laugh anyway. You seem to believe the bankers are anything but criminals on the largest scale in history, mere 'unarmed civilians'. As for civil authorities, they make a choice to take a job that will infringe on the rights and freedoms of individuals just as those in govt choose to pass legislation restricting individual rights and freedoms, they are not forced into it at gunpoint. People that make these choices take a risk that these attempts at ruling over somebody without any consent might be met with rebellious force and as our govts become even more restrictive that chance of people using rebellious force becomes greater.

By the way, do you have any statistics on the likelihood of people who have used weapons in crime.....to use guns illegally?

Errrr.....ALL OF THEM! Duh!

If you have used a firearm in the commission of a crime you have used it illegally, kind of self-explanatory isn't it?
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
So the govts who invaded Afghanistan & Iraq and bombed the sh*t out of Lybia along with many other govts should be allowed weapons then?
How else would they do all that.

You make me laugh anyway.
No doubt. It's most likely the fact that reason and critical thought are foreign to you.

You seem to believe the bankers are anything but criminals on the largest scale in history, mere 'unarmed civilians'.
Besides the fact that criminals can be civilians, as bankers would be, shooting unarmed criminals ex post facto, is a crime.

But you go right ahead and keep proving you were never a LEO, and should never be allowed to own a weapon.

As for civil authorities, they make a choice to take a job that will infringe on the rights and freedoms of individuals just as those in govt choose to pass legislation restricting individual rights and freedoms, they are not forced into it at gunpoint. People that make these choices take a risk that these attempts at ruling over somebody without any consent might be met with rebellious force and as our govts become even more restrictive that chance of people using rebellious force becomes greater.
I agree about understanding a certain amount of risk, they have to be aware that people like you exist, but the insinuation and justification you make, is just more of the stupidity you fill posts with.

If you have used a firearm in the commission of a crime you have used it illegally, kind of self-explanatory isn't it?
Yes it is. And you keep telling all of us how you want to use your guns in the commission of a crime.

Duh!
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
Well then I'm a proud 'gun-toting nut-job'. If I were in Kreskin's position I would try to deal with the guy through the police or mental health officials but the minute he became a real & serious threat to my own safety or my family he would have a permanent limp or worse. Same if you think I will stand by and let someone steal my car or rob my house....they will only try once and won't try it on anyone else too soon afterward if ever. Sorry if you find that attitude shocking or offensive.


See, now there's the clarity and honesty that keeps the debate valid.

So long as there's an aggressive fringe that feel they are justified in shooting people simply because they feel their 'stuff' is threatened, there will be a societal need to address the fact that guns make society more aggressive, not safer. And a middle ground will need to be reached, between ownership and self defense, and public well being and safety.
 

PoliticalNick

The Troll Bashing Troll
Mar 8, 2011
7,940
0
36
Edson, AB
Yes it is. And you keep telling all of us how you want to use your guns in the commission of a crime.

No I don't. I would use them to protect myself, my family and my property from those who are a threat, including those who are a threat under the guise of law or govt. I will protect my rights and freedoms at all costs so when a banker robs me of my savings to line their pockets I will stop them and when a govt official tries to take my money or property I will stop them. If I were really homocidal there are many just plain idiots like you around I could go after but I don't. In fact I have never used a firearm against a human yet in almost 50 years so I can't be the homocidal maniac you would like to portray me as.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
No I don't.
Oh yes you do.

I would use them to protect myself, my family and my property from those who are a threat, including those who are a threat under the guise of law or govt.
Gunning someone down ex post facto, is a criminal offense.

If you were ever a LEO, you wouldn't need to be told that.

I will protect my rights and freedoms at all costs so when a banker robs me of my savings to line their pockets I will stop them and when a govt official tries to take my money or property I will stop them.
You'll stop them eh?

No, you'll go after him, after the fact.

That's called revenge.

If I were really homocidal there are many just plain idiots like you around I could go after but I don't.
No doubt. People like you usually resort to violence when confronted by reason.

In fact I have never used a firearm against a human yet in almost 50 years so I can't be the homocidal maniac you would like to portray me as.
You painted your own self portrait.
 

Tecumsehsbones

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 18, 2013
56,079
7,326
113
Washington DC
No I don't. I would use them to protect myself, my family and my property from those who are a threat, including those who are a threat under the guise of law or govt. I will protect my rights and freedoms at all costs so when a banker robs me of my savings to line their pockets I will stop them and when a govt official tries to take my money or property I will stop them. If I were really homocidal there are many just plain idiots like you around I could go after but I don't. In fact I have never used a firearm against a human yet in almost 50 years so I can't be the homocidal maniac you would like to portray me as.

Ummm. . . shooting someone in defence of property is a crime. Except in Texas. At night.
 

PoliticalNick

The Troll Bashing Troll
Mar 8, 2011
7,940
0
36
Edson, AB
See, now there's the clarity and honesty that keeps the debate valid.

So long as there's an aggressive fringe that feel they are justified in shooting people simply because they feel their 'stuff' is threatened, there will be a societal need to address the fact that guns make society more aggressive, not safer. And a middle ground will need to be reached, between ownership and self defense, and public well being and safety.

I disagree. The fact that the criminals would soon learn that there is more threat to them than a fine or a few days/weeks/months of '3 hots & a cot' for stealing what good people work hard for would make us all safer from the threat of the criminal element.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
I disagree. The fact that the criminals would soon learn that there is more threat to them than a fine or a few days/weeks/months of '3 hots & a cot' for stealing what good people work hard for would make us all safer from the threat of the criminal element.
Just out of curiousity, did you recently find out your RRSP was poorly managed and gone?
 

Cobalt_Kid

Council Member
Feb 3, 2007
1,760
17
38
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

America has undergone vast changes, technology has undergone vast changes and we're still supposed to rely on a right created to reflect the needs of a time that's long gone?

Most of the weapons of that time were cumbersome to load, had poor inaccuracy and were in the hands of people who were tightly joined in the need for local self defence. It took about 15 seconds to load an 18th Century musket and required charging the powder, ramming the ball and filling the flash pan, wind and rain could make this difficult. Today with something like an AR-15 you could take out a squad of Minutemen before they could reload for a second shot. The pistols of that time were very inaccurate and in most cases one shot affairs, they were more for display and dueling than effective combat.

Now most Americans live in densely packed cities with serious social issues and there are millions of high capacity, rapid firing accurate weapons often in the hands of criminals and people who aren't emotionally or mentally equipped to handle them safely.

I also don't buy that having so many armed Americans preserves freedom in the country, the separate branches of government are supposed to do that although the balance of power has largely been overcome by special interests like the financial, defense and energy sectors that determine who gets elected by how much campaign funding they get.

You also have a really screwed up electoral system in the US now with mostly electronic voting systems that aren't accountable and easily hacked, so how much freedom does the average US citizen have now anyway?

Black Box Voting - America's Elections Watchdog Group

There's just a lot of myths around freedom and firearms in the US, the democratic institutions that are supposed to enable a free American society have been largely circumvented so only a few people now have political and economic control of the nation. After the last Republican administration Americans lost a lot of their rights around privacy and the right to effective justice. So the 2nd Amendment is just an emotional comfort to some, not a real way to protect freedom.

More than a million Americans died of firearm violence in the last century, more than from all the wars fought, if firearms gave true security the US would be one of the safest countries in the world, but instead it's one of the most violent.

Hunters that claim they need the 2nd Amendment aren't being honest either. Who needs semi-auto rifles with 30 round mags to hunt dear, moose and bear? My step dad is a lifelong NRA member and long time hunter. He used to hunt bear from tree stands with a bow. He also has friends who do just fine hunting deer and elk with muzzleloaders like the Hawkins replicas and others you can get. A five round .308 or 7mm is all the gun you're going to need for most game, there's bigger rifles for the truly massive game, but few people will ever need those. My stepdad also has a concealed firearms licence the he uses with his .357 revolver. If you need a semi-auto with a 15 or more round mag and you need a bunch of mags then you probably shouldn't have a gun in the first place. Take the high capacity, rapid firing weapons off the streets and you're halfway to a solution. No responsible citizen should need an Ar-15 or an AK-47 or even a Ruger mini-14. While it may be fun for some people to have and shoot these weapons it just gives too much capability to too many people who shouldn't have it. Limit handguns to revolvers or 6-8 round semi-autos. Restrict rifles to 5-7 round mags, hunters don't need more and go much above that and you're producing combat capable weapons.

Too many Americans are dying because firearms aren't being used as the 2nd Amendment intended, to provide security for a free state. Instead they're being used in many cases by people to kill themselves, settle scores, massacre completely innocent people, or to establish control of territory in organized crime conflicts. The US is in a state of chronic conflict with the huge amounts of firearms in the country.

The NRA has become a lobby group for the gun industry and shouldn't be listened to and neither should the firearms industry, it's shown consistently that it's only real interest is profit at the expense of thousands of American lives a year.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/11/nra-gun-control-firearms-industry-ties_n_2434142.html

Throughout its 142-year history, the National Rifle Association has portrayed itself as an advocate for the individual gun owner’s Second Amendment rights. In turn, the NRA relied on those gun owners, especially its 4 million or so members, to pressure lawmakers into carrying out its anti-gun control agenda.

In the last two decades, however, the deep-pocketed NRA has increasingly relied on the support of another constituency: the $12-billion-a-year gun industry, made up of manufacturers and sellers of firearms, ammunition and related wares. That alliance was sealed in 2005, when Congress, after heavy NRA lobbying, approved a measure that gave gunmakers and gun distributors broad, and unprecedented, immunity from a wave of liability lawsuits related to gun violence in America’s cities.

So the NRA and the firearms industry is just another group that has helped take freedom away from Americans, you can't even seek justice against them in court, one of the founding principles of American freedom.
 
Last edited:

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
I disagree. The fact that the criminals would soon learn that there is more threat to them than a fine or a few days/weeks/months of '3 hots & a cot' for stealing what good people work hard for would make us all safer from the threat of the criminal element.


The fact that you're willing to kill someone for theft is why gun control will continue to gain ground.

It's not about self defense. It's about control, and punishment. In the hands of Joe Schmoe, that's a terrifying notion, but I expect you'll never be able to understand why.
 

Tecumsehsbones

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 18, 2013
56,079
7,326
113
Washington DC
In Heller v. District of Columbia, the Supreme Court held that the right to keep and bear arms is an individual right, and goes beyond the need for a militia.
 

PoliticalNick

The Troll Bashing Troll
Mar 8, 2011
7,940
0
36
Edson, AB
The fact that you're willing to kill someone for theft is why gun control will continue to gain ground.

It's not about self defense. It's about control, and punishment. In the hands of Joe Schmoe, that's a terrifying notion, but I expect you'll never be able to understand why.

Depends what they are stealing. If they are walking off with my chainsaw or BBQ they will get a permanent limp to remember why it isn't a good idea. If they are stealing my life savings or my car with my baby in it they will get flowers at their funeral. You need to remember that it wasn't that long ago it was the way of the world and there happened to be a lot less crime then. I suspect that many won't understand the correlation between the lack of crime and an armed population prone to immediate, rough justice but I personally don't think it was a coincidence.

Just out of curiousity, did you recently find out your RRSP was poorly managed and gone?

Nope. Lost 60% of my pension in 2008 and have managed to grow about 35% of that back but I wasn't relying on that anyway, I have been investing in real-estate since the 80's and am close to a deal on 70 acres which I will subdivide down to 2.5 acre lots. If nothing changes in the market ever I will retire in about 5-7 years with around $3,000,000+. Thanks for caring about my retirement but I suggest you worry about your own.
 

gopher

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2005
21,513
65
48
Minnesota: Gopher State
There is NO good argument for gun control. I have an innate right to provide for and protect myself and my family by any means no matter what any group of bleeding hearts & pacifists would like to convince us of. That includes protection from the tyranny of govt so when the govt tries to invoke any gun control at all they are furthering their tyranny over the individual citizen and his/her innate human rights. Do not ever kid yourself, our modern govts are not here to benefit the individual people but to control them and taking away our means to defend ourselves against them is just a part of their goal of a completely enslaved global population.


Precisely what I have written before about the right of people to protect themselves from that fascist piece of fưcked up shίt Arpaio in Arizona. It is the role of the government to protect and serve, not to tyrannize - the right to keep and bear and to use arms was intended to insure that this role would be met. Strangely, many so called principled conservatives fail to realize that.
 

JamesBondo

House Member
Mar 3, 2012
4,158
37
48
See, now there's the clarity and honesty that keeps the debate valid.

So long as there's an aggressive fringe that feel they are justified in shooting people simply because they feel their 'stuff' is threatened, there will be a societal need to address the fact that guns make society more aggressive, not safer. And a middle ground will need to be reached, between ownership and self defense, and public well being and safety.

Here's the new Canadian code on self defense and citizens arrest.

Legislative Summary of Bill C-26: The Citizen?s Arrest and Self-defence Act

I don't think it entitles you to shoot someone that has threatened your stuff.

But it does seem legal to perform a citizens arrest, or take reasonable steps to stopping the person from taking your stuff.

Also, it seems that Canadians are better protected should they need to defend themselves
 

gopher

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2005
21,513
65
48
Minnesota: Gopher State
Tecumsehsbones; said:
Are international affairs and domestic society parallel cases?



I'm certainly no expert in Canadian history but there is no question that history is useful in teaching a few lessons. From my understanding, the British persuaded settlers in the Maritimes to lay down their arms and to peaceably negotiate over disputed lands. No sooner did the Acadians drop their weapons than they were attacked and the survivors exiled to present day Louisiana. The settlers of New England learned their lessons well and refused to lay down their arms. The result? They kept their lands and thrived.





Lay down your weapons and die. Keep them and thrive.
 

PoliticalNick

The Troll Bashing Troll
Mar 8, 2011
7,940
0
36
Edson, AB
Here's the new Canadian code on self defense and citizens arrest.

Legislative Summary of Bill C-26: The Citizen?s Arrest and Self-defence Act

I don't think it entitles you to shoot someone that has threatened your stuff.

But it does seem legal to perform a citizens arrest, or take reasonable steps to stopping the person from taking your stuff.

Also, it seems that Canadians are better protected should they need to defend themselves

Thanks for that link JB. It would appear that section 39 says I can defend my property from those pesky bylaw officers by force even if they have some legal claim to it. So it kind of looks like you're off base Bear when you claim I am in the wrong for forcibly removing a bylaw officer from my land and, if necessary, giving them a case of high velocity lead poisoning in the process of protecting what is mine.
 

DaSleeper

Trolling Hypocrites
May 27, 2007
33,676
1,665
113
Northern Ontario,
Depends what they are stealing. If they are walking off with my chainsaw or BBQ they will get a permanent limp to remember why it isn't a good idea. .
Section 39 provides a defence to a person who uses force to defend personal property from removal by another person lawfully entitled to it. Section 39(1) protects an individual from criminal responsibility if he or she is in peaceable possession of personal property, has a claim of right to it,12 and uses no more force than is reasonably necessary to defend it against another person, even a person who has a claim of law to that property. Such relief is denied in section 39(2) to a person defending personal property if that person does not have a claim of right to it and acts to defend the property from a person lawfully entitled to it. This section seems designed to discourage persons who dispute a claim from attempting to reassert possession over an item by force and to encourage them to use the legal process instead.13
Breaking someone's leg seems a bit of a stretch...non?
 

Tecumsehsbones

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 18, 2013
56,079
7,326
113
Washington DC
Thanks for that link JB. It would appear that section 39 says I can defend my property from those pesky bylaw officers by force even if they have some legal claim to it. So it kind of looks like you're off base Bear when you claim I am in the wrong for forcibly removing a bylaw officer from my land and, if necessary, giving them a case of high velocity lead poisoning in the process of protecting what is mine.

Notably absent is the term "deadly force." The general rule in all common-law countries is that deadly force is permitted only when you are in reasonable fear of imminent death or serious bodily harm. And shooting a firearm is always deadly force.