Global Warming - Rupert Murdoch Weighs In

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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His calculations seem in order. I do differ though on some of his conclusions. First, I don't think that it would be as costly as he assumes it would be to cut back. Sure if it was done overnight it would, but the technology is out there to be more efficient, and can be phased in rather than instantaneous. We can look at other developed countries and developing countries to see that automobile emissions can be reduced without devastation to the economy.

Second, from his own calculations, anthropogenic contributions to the greenhouse effect are put at 0.28 % of total greenhouse effect. He says if we met the Kyoto targets we would reduce our CO2 by 0.035%. The total effect of CO2 he states as 0.117 %. That is our contribution, so a reduction would result in a warming effect of 0.082%. This is still mind you our contribution to the equation. I fail to see how man made changes would be catastrophic, as we are only adding to the problem, it's not a reduction from the norm. Effectively we would be mitigating our own effect, not changing the natural cycles in greenhouse gases.

As we can see by looking at trends in global temperature norms, very tiny increases and decreases can have a dramatic effect on the climate. I do also agree with him that CO2 seems to get all of the attention, and their are plenty of other emissions which should get just as much attention. Methane, sulphur dioxides, CFC's, Nitrogenous compounds, all of them. I don't know when it became OK to just dump this stuff out there and think, hey it's natural, it's there anyways. All of these compounds with the exception of the halogenated hydrocarbons exist in nature, but we know better than to contaminate water courses and soil with them. I have no doubt that the release of these airborne compounds is also being bioaccumulated by us when we eat our foods. You can think of the earth in terms of a biological entity. With all of the natural processes being analogous to our own metabolic systems. Our lungs can take one hell of a beating before we reap the consequences. We know smoking is bad, the changes happen over a lifetime. I liken this to our polluting ways as a species. Just because it isn't drastic now does not mean we should be complacent.
 

Tonington

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Did you happen to read any of the other articles form that site? Do we really want to start a competition of who can post links to what? I have heard these arguments before, I'm more interested in discussing these things with people.
 

Jay

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Jan 7, 2005
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No I read that article....and I thought it was interesting and pertained to the subject at hand. You may post whatever you feel like as far as I'm concerned and I'm not getting in the way of you discussing these matters with people.

The fact of the matter is there are lots of reasons to be skeptical about the Kyoto crowd and as Juan so delicately pointed out, I'm not qualified to say this agreement isn't for Canada so I will use links and such to prove my points.

Interesting enough though, we apparently have 74% of the population all ready to accept and ratify and go ahead with Kyoto but as the one link I posted shows we have had no real debate in this country about it. I do wonder how 74% came to this revelation? CBC maybe....sensationalism and fear mongering….politics maybe?
 

Tonington

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Thats a good question. Maybe the rest of Canada has noticed a similar pattern that I have noticed. First it was, Science hasn't confirmed gloabal warming, then science did confirm it, then groups said it was cyclical,and indeed it is. Then you have a group of scientists who show that this current trend is outside the norm, and show the links to anthropogenic causes, and of course we get other groups who oppose that. That's great, it's good to think critically. I feel it's just new roadblocks being thrown up every time we go past one.

Or maybe they can see the changes in the natural world around them, and they can then relate all the news about global warming to those changes they see. Or maybe they are gullible enough to believe everything they see on TV. Though that doesn't explain the paradigm shift when compared to mid 1990's views. There are still people on TV who present opposing views. As you have pointed out, there is science out there that opposes Kyoto too.
 

EagleSmack

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I heard on the radio that it has been the slowest hurricane season in decades.

Last year the Carribean and S. US got battered with hurricane after hurricane. The Global Warming crowd said

"You see! All these hurricanes are from global warming!"

Now that we've had the slowest hurricane season in decades is that due to global warming as well? Where are the experts?
 

Tonington

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The cause of the decrease in hurricane frequency this year was caused by the el nino effects in the Pacific. The warming in the Pacific causes a high pressure trough, which in turn causes more low pressure over the hurricane spawning grounds in the central Atlantic. Low pressure systems that are born there are what turn into the hurricanes. However, the increased area of low pressure actually impedes hurricane formation, as low level winds disrupt the formation of the cyclones. If you look at the hurricane forecasts, they rarely get things right. Long term climate can be predicted with some degree of reliability, but predicting when a storm will form, and how many is much more difficult than long term climate forecasts. The complexity involved translates into very poor predictions of storms, part of the reason that hurricane forecasts are ignored by residents, as tragically seen in New Orleans.
 

I think not

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Tonington

It appears this scientist's brief calculations are accurate to the extent water vapor is the worst contributor to Global Warming, to the tune of 95%. Even the other worse "offenders" like Methane and CO2 are mostly naturally occuring. So what is the argument here about Kyoto?
 

Tonington

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I totally agree with his calculations. And yes methane and CO2 are naturally occuring. His calculations do not explain however the effects of increasing those concentrations. Its called a positive feedback, where the increased concentrations in turn increase the water vapour in the atmosphere. Also, carbon dioxide concentrations as well as methane concentrations were fairly consatnt until human activity spurred them on. Methane has increased, you can thank the large feed lots of cattle for that. Carbon dioxide has also increased, and I don't need to tell you where that comes from.

Even if you don't prescribe to Kyoto recommendations, does it not make sense to diversify our energy needs? If we don't start switching away from dirty cheap fuels now, it is going to cost us big time in the future. Here is an article a buddy of mine found from the Independant media center, I apologize for the length, as the articles are only free to view on the day they are published.

International Energy Agency calls for urgent action to reduce use of power
By Saeed Shah
Published: 08 November 2006

It is the year 2030. Global energy demand has jumped by 53 per cent. Emissions of greenhouse gases have soared by 55 per cent over today's levels. The earth is heading for meltdown.

That is the catastrophic scenario of continuing with "business as usual" depicted in the International Energy Agency's annual World Economic Outlook. That is, unless policymakers and consumers can be persuaded to alter their behaviour radically.

"On current trends, we are on course for a dirty, expensive and unsustainable energy future," the IEA's executive director Claude Mandil said at the report's launch in London yesterday. "In response, urgent government action is required. The key word is urgent."

The IEA advises industrialised countries on their energy needs. At last year's Gleneagles summit of world leaders, it was given the job of "advising on alternative energy scenarios and strategies aimed at a clean, clever and competitive energy future."

The answer it produced yesterday is stark. The world must embrace nuclear power and consumers have to invest in more energy-efficient equipment and cars, if we are to meet our needs in a sustainable way. And, we have to find $20 trillion to invest in energy infrastructure.

"The world is facing twin energy-related threats: that of not having adequate and secure supplies of energy at affordable prices and that of environmental harm caused by consuming too much of it... the current pattern of energy supply carries the threat of severe and irreversible environmental damage," the report said.

The IEA took two scenarios, the "reference" case of continuing current trends, and the "alternative" model, which sees a sharp reduction in energy demand. Under the business-as-usual case, global oil demand reaches 99 million barrels per day in 2015, and 116 mbd in 2030 - compared with 84 mbd in 2005. By 2030, the OECD group of 26 industrialised countries would import two-thirds of its oil needs, from 56 per cent today. Much of the additional imports would come from the Middle East, "along vulnerable maritime routes".

The price of crude oil, in nominal terms, will reach $97 ($55 in real terms) in 2030, or around $130 if the required investment is delayed, the IEA predicted.

More than 70 per cent of the increase in demand for oil and other primary energy sources would come from developing countries, with China alone accounting for 30 per cent. The level of investment required to service our energy needs between now and 2030 is just over $20 trillion, of which the power sector accounts for 56 per cent. More than half of all the energy investment required worldwide is in developing countries. China alone needs $3.7 trillion.

This is going to be very hard to meet. According to the OECD, the oil price boom over the last few years has led to only a "slight" increase in investment, when measured in real terms against rising costs.

The reference scenario foresees a 55 per cent increase in carbon dioxide emissions from the energy sector between now and 2030, with 39 per cent coming from China alone.

The problem is that not much can currently be done about China. As a developing country, it is not obliged under the Kyoto Protocol to reduce its emissions. And the world's current biggest emitter, the US, has not, famously, implemented Kyoto either.

Jim Watson, an energy expert at Sussex University, who was not involved in the IEA report, said: "China is amenable to talks [about emissions reductions] but the problem is that the US stays outside the international framework. The big developing countries are involved in a sort-of Mexican stand-off with the US. They will not move until the US does."

The IEA is not all doom and gloom. There is a big opportunity because the West is about to enter into a phase of replacing its ageing power generation infrastructure (60 per cent of power plants in the OECD will be "retired" in the next 10 years), while developing countries are putting up hundreds of new power stations.

Fatih Birol, chief economist at the IEA, pointed out that a new coal-fired power plant, for instance, could be expected to have a life of 60 years. This presents us with a "chance and a challenge". He said: "The choices of the next 10 years will drive the next 50 or 60 years... If we want to see a difference, we have to make those choices now."

That means the deployment of the cleanest available technology in the new power plants. It should be remembered that China is putting up a new coal-fired power plant every week - and most of these cannot later be modified for "carbon capture" technology. Dr Birol said that if Chinese power plants' efficiencies were brought up to OECD levels, an awful lot of energy could be saved. And we cannot make major reductions without relying on nuclear technology, for some 15 per cent of our energy needs, the IEA said.

The report is perhaps most interesting when advocating a "demand-side" response - that is, action by consumers of energy - which, it said, was much more cost-effective than investing in the supply of energy. The report said the world's consumers needed to spend an extra $2.4 trillion on more efficient refrigerators, cars and other energy-consuming devices. An additional dollar spent on more efficient electrical equipment and appliances avoids $2 investment on the supply side, the IEA said. Dr Birol said: "The cleanest power plant is the one you don't need to build."

It is the year 2030. Global energy demand has jumped by 53 per cent. Emissions of greenhouse gases have soared by 55 per cent over today's levels. The earth is heading for meltdown.

That is the catastrophic scenario of continuing with "business as usual" depicted in the International Energy Agency's annual World Economic Outlook. That is, unless policymakers and consumers can be persuaded to alter their behaviour radically.

"On current trends, we are on course for a dirty, expensive and unsustainable energy future," the IEA's executive director Claude Mandil said at the report's launch in London yesterday. "In response, urgent government action is required. The key word is urgent."

The IEA advises industrialised countries on their energy needs. At last year's Gleneagles summit of world leaders, it was given the job of "advising on alternative energy scenarios and strategies aimed at a clean, clever and competitive energy future."

The answer it produced yesterday is stark. The world must embrace nuclear power and consumers have to invest in more energy-efficient equipment and cars, if we are to meet our needs in a sustainable way. And, we have to find $20 trillion to invest in energy infrastructure.

"The world is facing twin energy-related threats: that of not having adequate and secure supplies of energy at affordable prices and that of environmental harm caused by consuming too much of it... the current pattern of energy supply carries the threat of severe and irreversible environmental damage," the report said.

The IEA took two scenarios, the "reference" case of continuing current trends, and the "alternative" model, which sees a sharp reduction in energy demand. Under the business-as-usual case, global oil demand reaches 99 million barrels per day in 2015, and 116 mbd in 2030 - compared with 84 mbd in 2005. By 2030, the OECD group of 26 industrialised countries would import two-thirds of its oil needs, from 56 per cent today. Much of the additional imports would come from the Middle East, "along vulnerable maritime routes".

The price of crude oil, in nominal terms, will reach $97 ($55 in real terms) in 2030, or around $130 if the required investment is delayed, the IEA predicted.

More than 70 per cent of the increase in demand for oil and other primary energy sources would come from developing countries, with China alone accounting for 30 per cent. The level of investment required to service our energy needs between now and 2030 is just over $20 trillion, of which the power sector accounts for 56 per cent. More than half of all the energy investment required worldwide is in developing countries. China alone needs $3.7 trillion.

This is going to be very hard to meet. According to the OECD, the oil price boom over the last few years has led to only a "slight" increase in investment, when measured in real terms against rising costs.

The reference scenario foresees a 55 per cent increase in carbon dioxide emissions from the energy sector between now and 2030, with 39 per cent coming from China alone.

The problem is that not much can currently be done about China. As a developing country, it is not obliged under the Kyoto Protocol to reduce its emissions. And the world's current biggest emitter, the US, has not, famously, implemented Kyoto either.

Jim Watson, an energy expert at Sussex University, who was not involved in the IEA report, said: "China is amenable to talks [about emissions reductions] but the problem is that the US stays outside the international framework. The big developing countries are involved in a sort-of Mexican stand-off with the US. They will not move until the US does."

The IEA is not all doom and gloom. There is a big opportunity because the West is about to enter into a phase of replacing its ageing power generation infrastructure (60 per cent of power plants in the OECD will be "retired" in the next 10 years), while developing countries are putting up hundreds of new power stations.

Fatih Birol, chief economist at the IEA, pointed out that a new coal-fired power plant, for instance, could be expected to have a life of 60 years. This presents us with a "chance and a challenge". He said: "The choices of the next 10 years will drive the next 50 or 60 years... If we want to see a difference, we have to make those choices now."

That means the deployment of the cleanest available technology in the new power plants. It should be remembered that China is putting up a new coal-fired power plant every week - and most of these cannot later be modified for "carbon capture" technology. Dr Birol said that if Chinese power plants' efficiencies were brought up to OECD levels, an awful lot of energy could be saved. And we cannot make major reductions without relying on nuclear technology, for some 15 per cent of our energy needs, the IEA said.

The report is perhaps most interesting when advocating a "demand-side" response - that is, action by consumers of energy - which, it said, was much more cost-effective than investing in the supply of energy. The report said the world's consumers needed to spend an extra $2.4 trillion on more efficient refrigerators, cars and other energy-consuming devices. An additional dollar spent on more efficient electrical equipment and appliances avoids $2 investment on the supply side, the IEA said. Dr Birol said: "The cleanest power plant is the one you don't need to build."
 

I think not

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I totally agree with his calculations. And yes methane and CO2 are naturally occuring. His calculations do not explain however the effects of increasing those concentrations. Its called a positive feedback, where the increased concentrations in turn increase the water vapour in the atmosphere. Also, carbon dioxide concentrations as well as methane concentrations were fairly consatnt until human activity spurred them on. Methane has increased, you can thank the large feed lots of cattle for that. Carbon dioxide has also increased, and I don't need to tell you where that comes from.

Even if you don't prescribe to Kyoto recommendations, does it not make sense to diversify our energy needs? If we don't start switching away from dirty cheap fuels now, it is going to cost us big time in the future. Here is an article a buddy of mine found from the Independant media center, I apologize for the length, as the articles are only free to view on the day they are published.

It's sound advice, but I hardly doubt the world is coming to and end. And even if it is, I don't see how man is the ONLY cause of it, and perhaps more importantly, there is nothing we can do about it.

No Kyoto is not an answer, it went from being a solution to becoming a "first step". It's a money transfer scheme and that's all it is. When politicians hijack a serious issue like Global Warming, you should expect reactions of the sort.
 

Tonington

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Of course the world is not coming to an end, it was here before us, and it will remain after we are gone. The reason it is a first step is that there are still countries exempt from it. I don't know that China and other nations will come on board without the Americans also comng on board. I would suggest that politicains have not hijacked the issue, as there are still few countries who have met their pledge. It is scientists who have made the recommendations, politicians do not have to follow those recommendations, and indeed many have not. It is hard to be a sollution when some of the worst polluters are out of the loop.

I've posted this thought allready, but why is it acceptable to continue polluting in the manner we are? Let's not even mix up Kyoto in this conversation. We know that there are severe repercussions to our polluting ways, does it not make sense that we cut back on our pollution?
 

Jay

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Jan 7, 2005
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It's hard not to mix Kyoto into the conversation when it's the "hottest" topic in environmentalism at the moment and if man isn't the cause of warming than it doesn't make sense for our governments to be dumping billions of dollars on solutions that aren't solutions. And it makes even less sense to buy credits from other countries....

As the author points out in the initial post we may need a solution and it may need to be world wide but if countries aren't going to sign on to it because it doesn't fit them, why bother signing this one.

And if it is all BS anyways it sure doesn't look good on us to slam America for doing the right thing.

I say this is all politics.
 

Tonington

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Regardless of whether or not you think global warming is occuring partly because of our actions or not, can we all agree that polluting our air is bad? We don't need Kyoto to talk about that.

If we were to take that attitude of " If it isn't right for country X why bother at all?", then we can apply that to an even larger scope of issues. Why bother fighting world terrorism if other countries can't? Can one country single-handedly stop terrorism? Not bloody likely. Doesn't mean that the countries that can should stop now does it?

You'll notice I haven't slammed America in any of my posts, and it certainly hasn't been proven to be BS.

It certainly has become political, however the heart of the issue is not.
 

I think not

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Regardless of whether or not you think global warming is occuring partly because of our actions or not, can we all agree that polluting our air is bad?

Not only our air, but our water and our land. I have always been a proponent that new technologies will help all of us curtail pollution in general. What the world needs is a realistic approach in fighting pollution. An approach that will have all countries participate and not excluding "developing nation" status.
 

Tonington

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I have not. Thats a great idea. Kinda expensive still, but you have to expect that from pilot projects.

I have heard of plans where the CO2 would be trapped, and then sequestered in the ocean. A little complicated though, and they said we would have to fertilize the ocean with Iron.
 

I think not

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I believe we will not be able to find a single solution to the issue of pollution. I think it is more likely (at least within the next 100 years) we will have to come up with a multiple solution;

Wind, solar, ethanol, ocean current and other projects as we mentioned above. I honestly do not feel nuclear is the way to go.