Giving Detention for Bad Grades

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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i'm not about to try to moderate my own thread, so expect me to give an honest opinion.
He said 'public system' and you requested 'tact' from him, essentially accusing him of attacking teachers, rather than the system. he said it's an issue you don't want to see him get into, and you launched into a personal attack. Plain and simple. You're no saint Bcool.
 

Ariadne

Council Member
Aug 7, 2006
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she's a new teacher.

That's a good place to start. Teachers need permanent certification to keep their jobs. Permanent certification requires 2 years minimum in the same school with three pretty intense evaluations (around here). Many teachers coast in the system for years without getting their permanent certification. If she's new, and she's acting as she is, then I think it may be worth scheduling a meeting with the Principal and the teacher (don't exclude the teacher). I would leave your daughter out of it, and make it clear to the school that you do not want your daughter to be concerned with, or aware of, adult discussions. I say this because sometimes the school will attempt to involve the child to soften the meeting. Make it clear that this is about your concerns, not the child's concerns. Also, include the teacher in the meeting because it observes professional ethics between the teacher and principal ... professional ethics have all sorts of information rules. If you don't include the teacher, the principal will speak with her later ... she'll tell a different version of the same facts, and it will be swept away.

Have notes so you stay on point. Avoid emotion. Watch for the staff pushing your buttons, or trying to suggest that you are an over-reactive, over-protective mother. Teachers have subtle ways for manipulating the situation, and are not above making up a little story to try to make it seem like they have been in your shoes and empathize with your point. Be careful, make it clear that you are talking about facts that are inappropriate, not feelings that you're having about classroom discipline. Stay on point.

If you're going to go to battle with a school, keep detailed notes about everything ... they will. Have dates, times, names of those you spoke with, and notes about what was said. Keep copies of emails, and include that privacy clause on the bottom of your email so it cannot be printed or distributed without permission. Remember that teachers typically have each others back, so to divide and conquer is an uphill battle, but what you want to do is separate this teacher out of the pack as having used inappropriate and ineffective teaching methods. Emphasize that contemporary education focuses on individual learner styles, and that you expect that for your daughter. Be clear that repetition has not worked, does not work, and that an alternative learning and teaching method should be used. Stress that 60% should be praised given that your daughter has this obvious weakness ... and that it's a well known fact that positive reinforcement can improve learning. It's also a well known fact that if a child is told he or she is a failure, that children often live down to that expectation.

Imply, without stating, that the teacher appears to have difficulties with anger, and that you do not believe she is well suited for such young children. Don't back down, don't be defensive, and ... if you succeed ... this teacher, assuming she does not already have her permanent certification, will have her first mark against her. If another parent has similar concerns, encourage them to speak up too. Each time a parent expresses concerns about a teacher's classroom conduct, some doubt about their ability to manage a classroom is created. Teachers are not above doing things that are way off base when they think it's their word against that of children.

If the objective is to ensure that the teacher is a little more careful ... and maybe does not have the opportunity to do this to other people's children ... this is the route to take.

During the meeting, it would be worth asking the teacher how spelling is taught. Various methods have been used in the last couple of decades. One really stupid methods was spelling phonetically. It produced an entire generation of children that could not spell. Sounding it out seems popular these days ... also not very effective. Is spelling corrected in everything that is written? How is it taught, how is it corrected, what exactly does the teacher think is preventing your daughter from learning correct spelling ... put the teacher on the spot to first explain what she's doing, then explain what she thinks is going wrong, and then ask what methods are most appropriate for learning. If her only answer is repetition, it would be worth asking where she got her teaching degree so as to not recommend that University.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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My apologies, this teacher isn't the one that kicked a kid. She's a well loved teacher. And taking a concern to the principal is against written school policy. They are up front that they have a 'first contact' policy. If you have an issue with a teacher, it is to be brought to the teacher first, and only brought to anyone after that if you and the teacher can't address it.
 

Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
8,252
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really, I made a point of asking what detention was, and if the teacher calls it detention, and what she does during detention. She sits alone in a room and writes lines (ie, the quiz words 10 times over), and it's called detention. No special attention, no one on one.



Because how can teachers prove they're doing their jobs without a metric? Anytime we attempt to add something to a vessel there has to be some graduation to prove that we have added content. What would you choose other than grades to show parents what their investment has bought?

It all depends on the course. I really see no problem with eliminating many of the exams in the humanities. What does it matter if you can show that you really know Chaucer? So far as the sciences are concerned or courses where a certain level of competence is required I have no problems with some sort of evaluation to determine competence. I have found that real learning occurs when the student takes a real interest in the course because he enjoys the material. History and politics is like that. No one had to pressure me to read material in those area; I did it recreationally. What I have a problem with is children in the lower grades being forced onto the examination treadmill and essentially eliminating the child's natural desire to learn.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
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California
Karrie

Reading over the additional information regarding your daughter's situation - the die has been cast and reference to her poor spelling ability has become a "fact" in her mind.

She needs additional help from someone else, a new approach, a fun approach, perhaps lists of words from her favorite movies she watches at home, anything - even repetitive words - to gain her confidence that spelling isn't the mountain it has become. New words can be introduced slowly but not in a barrage in a test situation - because often the introduction in a public school (of necessity) to a group of kids will also
include fear of competition and being a 'loser' in front of others.

You know all these issues - we all do - we have all had our special horrors in school subjects and it isn't too late to get her back on track so she won't have to deal with fear and lack of confidence along with learning new words.

Perhaps there is another teacher at the school who would do some tutoring - but it sounds like you and she could accomplish the same tasks and she would feel more comfortable with you. Your language abilities are outstanding and I think you would make a wonderful "tutor".

Bar Sinister's last sentence in the post above says it all:
What I have a problem with is children in the lower grades being forced onto the examination treadmill and essentially eliminating the child's natural desire to learn.
 

Ariadne

Council Member
Aug 7, 2006
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My apologies, this teacher isn't the one that kicked a kid. She's a well loved teacher. And taking a concern to the principal is against written school policy. They are up front that they have a 'first contact' policy. If you have an issue with a teacher, it is to be brought to the teacher first, and only brought to anyone after that if you and the teacher can't address it.

That's the professional ethics rule that applies between teachers ... but parents don't have to play by teacher professional ethics if they don't want to. You can always email the teacher and copy it to the principal. The principal might tell you to take it up with the teacher ... which is exactly what you are doing, while at the same time keeping the principal informed and in the loop ... nothing wrong with that.

Thanks for clarifying. I thought the kicking was about another teacher ... then got confused by a couple of comments ... didn't have time to go back and read. If I were in that situation, I would start keeping notes. Try to put a positive spin on it for your daughter's sake ... ask to volunteer in the class ... keep a close eye on things ... tell the teacher that your daughter needs extra help with spelling and ask the teacher what she recommends (detention obviously isn't an answer), then ask her to use those techniques in the classroom.
 
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karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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So... a talk with my daughter's main teacher AND a talk with her English teacher, and apparently my daughter is stuck in one of those 'new theory' bs zones.... "Detention isn't punishment" *sigh* now how do you argue with that?
 

wulfie68

Council Member
Mar 29, 2009
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Calgary, AB
So... a talk with my daughter's main teacher AND a talk with her English teacher, and apparently my daughter is stuck in one of those 'new theory' bs zones.... "Detention isn't punishment" *sigh* now how do you argue with that?

If the teacher isn't there helping her with spelling or other work she's having problems with, how is it not a punishment? Thats a cop out by them and you would be justified in taking issue with it, in my opinion. I'm in a different part of the world now but detention for my almost 13 yr old step-son is a punishment, given for repeatedly talking in class and other infractions. I just can't see how it can be seen otherwise.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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As they put it, 'detention' merely means they're being detained for extra help.... lol. right.
 

wired

New Member
Nov 3, 2010
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If she has problems in spelling get her into reading, its not effective for learning specific words but it would help her overall in spelling. Kids have enough problems focusing in school as it is, they need recess. Depriving recess is just silly.
 

The Old Medic

Council Member
May 16, 2010
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First of all, this is NOT detention.

You should be glad that you have a teacher that actually supports educating children. If your daughter essentially slouged off this test, then she should have received exactly what she received.

Stop coddling the little darling, and actually expect some performance from her. That's what REAL parents do, and it also what real teachers do.
 

Kathie Bondar

Kathie Bondar
May 11, 2010
230
1
18
Calgary, Alberta
Recently my daughter was given detention for receiving 12/20 on a quiz. Considered a 'fail' by the teacher, she was kept in from recess.

It seems to me to be counter intuitive to the educational process to punish bad grades with the removal of priviliges rather than adding support or extra home work. Not just for my kid, but for all kids.

What are your views, not on this individual case, but on the idea in general, of handing out detention to kids over bad grades? Does the fear of being in detention deter them? Or does being one of the kids constantly sitting in detention help encourage the deterioration of grades, and make it toothless as a punishment for behavioural issues?


Just curious, did you want her rewarded? I know teachers are frustrated, the sytem is frustrated by parents who are just there to critise, rather than stand by their kids' learning.
 

Chev

Electoral Member
Feb 10, 2009
374
2
18
Alberta
Karrie,
I've read all the posts over twice now and At this point I'm not going to get into the definitions of detention, grades (passing/failing), good/bad, old/new teachers, etc.etc. I have one question for you. Do you spend any time practicing reading and spelling with your daughter?
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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Of course I do Chev.

And Medic, if it's called detention, it's detention. lol.

The detentions stand, the school's intent in them has been explained thoroughly to her. She's to sit and write lines of she gets bad grades. I gave up the fight of it.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
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California
Karrie - it would seem you and your husband are the only one who can reset your daughter on a confident path.

I often criticize our methods of instilling knowledge into kids by the old rote "do it a hundred times" when understanding and comprehension often can be at the beginning of something new if it appears interesting and
exciting to a child - sans the fear of failure waiting at the end of the lesson.

Isn't it strange we as adults still praise sports teams and individuals who fail to win a contest or game - or a series - they are still "our heros" but we deny our children the benefit of learning failure (or not getting something right away) is baaaaaaaaad. Failure to perform only means another opportunity awaits and the desire
to overcome negative images of self and change into determination to "beat it"....can be a lifelong lesson.

I suffered through the second grade from one particularly hysterical old bat telling me I had to give up my musical lessons (which did amount to considerable after school time), by having to decide I could not go to school if I continued to learn music. Kids rework what they are told into terrible scenarios when delivered by unfeeling superiors or misunderstanding "teaching" staff..... I stubbornly refused to give up the music and stuck to getting better "fooled ya" grades for the old bat by telling myself she had no musical ability and I did!

Find the way into your daughter's desire to take on her fight and win .... not to be the best but to be able to master enough to stay out of the punishment spotlight.

In some of my most angry moments with school systems who are herding so many (too many) kids in various studies, I know I should feel sympathetic but children are valuable commodity - and if they are taught to believe they don't have the capability to learn and specialize and be "great" at something - they will give up before they try. That is the cruelty of the punishment and education has yet to realize instilling a desire to "win over a tough battle" is a better lesson learned than how to spell words.

How many times have we heard a coach tell his losing team: "It's ok - we have next week's game and meanwhile we'll work on our weaknesses". If kids can respond to this - why not other lessons - as challenges to beat.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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Thanks for the input Curio. I've essentially told her, 'this is how they do it, and they don't mean it to be punishment,' (even though that makes ZERO sense to me... sitting in detention writing lines is punishment, and doesn't change a thing from how the words were taught all week), 'so we'll work with it, take it as extra review time,' (even though she's had a week of such review), 'and add our own enriched techniques at home to try to avoid this issue.'

She's passed most of her tests since introducing a technique like BCool linked to or pointed out... we get her to split each word up into its separate sounds, and print it out with a different colour for each syllable. She works pretty hard at it, but still fails despite that, because it's such a weak area for her.