German POWs WW11

darkbeaver

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First, I want you to picture something in your mind. You are a German soldier who survived through the battles of World II. You were not really politically involved, and your parents were also indifferent to politics, but suddenly your education was interrupted and you were drafted into the German army and told where to fight. Now, in the Spring of 1945, you see that your country has been demolished by the Allies, your cities lie in ruins, and half of your family has been killed or is missing. Now, your unit is being surrounded, and it is finally time to surrender. The fact is, there is no other choice.

It has been a long, cold winter. The German army rations have not been all that good, but you managed to survive. Spring came late that year, with weeks of cold rainy weather in demolished Europe. Your boots are tattered, your uniform is falling apart, and the stress of surrender and confusion lies ahead for you. Now, it is over, you must surrender or be shot. This is war and the real world.

You are taken as a German Prisoner of War into American hands. The Americans had 200 such Prisoner of War camps scattered across Germany. You are marched to a compound surrounded with barbed wire fences as far as the eye can see. Thousands upon thousands of your fellow German soldiers are already in this make‑shift corral. You see no evidence of a latrine and after three hours of marching through the mud of the spring rain, the comfort of a latrine is upper‑most in your mind. You are driven through the heavily guarded gate and find yourself free to move about, and you begin the futile search for the latrine.

No more time. You find a place and squat. First you were exhausted, then hungry, then fearful, and now; dirty. Hundreds more German prisoners are behind you, pushing you on, jamming you together and every one of them searching for the latrine as soon as they could do so. Now, late in the day, there is no space to even squat, much less sit down to rest your weary legs. None of the prisoners, you quickly learn, have had any food that day, in fact there was no food while in the American hands that any surviving prisoner can testify to. No one has eaten any food for weeks, and they are slowly starving and dying. But, they can't do this to us! There are the Geneva Convention rules for the treatment of Prisoners of War. There must be some mistake! Hope continues through the night, with no shelter from the cold, biting rain.

Your uniform is sopping wet, and formerly brave soldiers are weeping all around you, as buddy after buddy dies from the lack of food, water, sleep and shelter from the weather. After weeks of this, your own hope bleeds off into despair, and finally you actually begin to envy those who, having surrendered first manhood and then dignity, now also surrender life itself. More hopeless weeks go by. Finally, the last thing you remember is falling, unable to get up, and lying face down in the mud mixed with the excrement of those who have gone before.

Your body will be picked up long after it is cold, and taken to a special tent where your clothing is stripped off. So that you will be quickly forgotten, and never again identified, your dog‑tag is snipped in half and your body along with those of your fellow soldiers are covered with chemicals for rapid decomposition and buried. You were not one of the exceptions, for more than one million seven hundred thousand German Prisoners of War died from a deliberate policy of extermination by starvation, exposure, and disease, under direct orders of General Dwight David Eisenhower.

One month before the end of World War II, General Eisenhower issued special orders concerning the treatment of German Prisoners and specific in the language of those orders was this statement,

"Prison enclosures are to provide no shelter or other comforts."

Eisenhower biographer Stephen Ambrose, who was given access to the Eisenhower personal letters, states that he proposed to exterminate the entire German General Staff, thousands of people, after the war.

Eisenhower, in his personal letters, did not merely hate the Nazi Regime, and the few who imposed its will down from the top, but that HE HATED THE GERMAN PEOPLE AS A RACE. It was his personal intent to destroy as many of them as he could, and one way was to wipe out as many prisoners of war as possible.

Of course, that was illegal under International law, so he issued an order on March 10, 1945 and verified by his initials on a cable of that date, that German Prisoners of War be predesignated as "Disarmed Enemy Forces" called in these reports as DEF. He ordered that these Germans did not fall under the Geneva Rules, and were not to be fed or given any water or medical attention. The Swiss Red Cross was not to inspect the camps, for under the DEF classification, they had no such authority or jurisdiction.

Months after the war was officially over, Eisenhower's special German DEF camps were still in operation forcing the men into confinement, but denying that they were prisoners. As soon as the war was over, General George Patton simply turned his prisoners loose to fend for themselves and find their way home as best they could. Eisenhower was furious, and issued a specific order to Patton, to turn these men over to the DEF camps. Knowing Patton as we do from history, we know that these orders were largely ignored, and it may well be that Patton's untimely and curious death may have been a result of what he knew about these wretched Eisenhower DEF camps.

The book, OTHER LOSSES, found its way a few months ago into the hands of a Canadian news reporter, Peter Worthington, of the OTTAWA SUN. He did his own research through contacts he had in Canada, and reported in his column on September 12,1989 the following, in part:

"...it is hard to escape the conclusion that Dwight Eisenhower was a war criminal of epic proportions. His (DEF) policy killed more Germans in peace than were killed in the European Theater."

"For years we have blamed the 1.7 million missing German POW's on the Russians. Until now, no one dug too deeply ..."





by Willie Martin
 

Colpy

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My father-in-law was an RSM in the Canadian Army.......immediately after the war, he was assigned to a camp in the Netherlands, guarding former members of the Dutch SS. He told me that they had no trouble keeping the prisoners in, the only times they fired shots was over the heads of Dutch mobs bent on killing the scum. Those were his words......I asked if he was serious, he thought for a second, and replied "There were no criminals left in Holland, we had all the scum."

Mind you, these were not Germans, but Dutch that volunteered to serve in the German Army.

Traitors.

I'd have just let the Dutch have them. German occupation forces were especially vicious (even for the Germans) in Holland.
 

Colpy

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BTW, DB, if you want to read a little about the REAL facts of US mistreatment of German POWs (and there was some) go to this site:

http://www.cyberussr.com/hcunn/for/us-germany-pow.html

At the bottom of the site, you will find a site address to the research of a couple of respected historians......they found German POWs in US hands died at a rate of about 1% a year.....that would mean of the approximately 4 million German POWs in 1945, about 40,000 died. Too many, but hardly in the class of millions.....

For instance, somewhere between 60 and 80% of the Soviet POWs held by the Germans were killed.

27% of the POWs held by the Japanese were killed.

Western Allied soldiers held by the Germans were treated reasonably well, except for escape attempts that inspired at least one mass shooting by Germans, and many executions after the fact. They also killed many moving the camps in the face of advancing Allied armies....still, our POWs lived, for the most part.
 

lone wolf

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...yet an escape attempt in Bowmanville Ontario resulted in a donneybrook that both sides reportedly "quite enjoyed" - until Command got serious and broke out the fire hoses.
(this related to me over a few brewskies by Jack Way, Provost Marshal Corps)
 
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darkbeaver

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BTW, DB, if you want to read a little about the REAL facts of US mistreatment of German POWs (and there was some) go to this site:

http://www.cyberussr.com/hcunn/for/us-germany-pow.html

At the bottom of the site, you will find a site address to the research of a couple of respected historians......they found German POWs in US hands died at a rate of about 1% a year.....that would mean of the approximately 4 million German POWs in 1945, about 40,000 died. Too many, but hardly in the class of millions.....

For instance, somewhere between 60 and 80% of the Soviet POWs held by the Germans were killed.

27% of the POWs held by the Japanese were killed.

Western Allied soldiers held by the Germans were treated reasonably well, except for escape attempts that inspired at least one mass shooting by Germans, and many executions after the fact. They also killed many moving the camps in the face of advancing Allied armies....still, our POWs lived, for the most part.

Why is it that you feel the need to qualify these historians as respected? I suspect you believe it will afford ligitamacy to your revisionist sentiments. Thanks for the link anyway, it's possibly a source of intel about the condition of your condition. Facts are facts, you plainly deal with unreal facts but I'm not so inclined and continue to use the oldfashioned type of truth. :lol:
 

tracy

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Why does the German soldier have to be painted as innocent? How do you know those that died weren't a bunch of racist murderers like many of their countrymen? Would that make the story less compelling?
 

lone wolf

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Why does the German soldier have to be painted as innocent? How do you know those that died weren't a bunch of racist murderers like many of their countrymen? Would that make the story less compelling?

How do you know a lot of Iraqui and Afghani who, by accident of birth happen to live there, don't think the same thing about your own country's soldiers? When your family choice is the Nazi party or a farewell party, which would you choose?
 

tracy

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How do you know a lot of Iraqui and Afghani who, by accident of birth happen to live there, don't think the same thing about your own country's soldiers? When your family choice is the Nazi party or a farewell party, which would you choose?

Different topic, though I'd hopefully choose the farewell party rather than live supporting the nazis even if it was only to save my own skin. Some of my relatives had to make that choice. If I ever feel Canada or the US is doing something on the same level as the Holocaust, hopefully I'll have the moral strength to leave them too.

That wasn't my point though. I'm just wondering why the German soldier has to be painted as one of the "good" ones? If he wasn't morally good, does he not deserve reasonable treatment? Are we at the point that we think bad people we hold as captives deserve starvation?

I find the author's premise a little unbelievable though. Where were the extra million or so Germans we killed buried?
 

lone wolf

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Different topic, though I'd hopefully choose the farewell party rather than live supporting the nazis even if it was only to save my own skin. Some of my relatives had to make that choice. If I ever feel Canada or the US is doing something on the same level as the Holocaust, hopefully I'll have the moral strength to leave them too.

That wasn't my point though. I'm just wondering why the German soldier has to be painted as one of the "good" ones? If he wasn't morally good, does he not deserve reasonable treatment? Are we at the point that we think bad people we hold as captives deserve starvation?

I find the author's premise a little unbelievable though. Where were the extra million or so Germans we killed buried?

Perhaps I read more tar on your brush than you intended. Mass murder doesn't seem to fit with WW2-era American morals and ethics - no matter how much disgust tainted it.
 

Colpy

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Perhaps I read more tar on your brush than you intended. Mass murder doesn't seem to fit with WW2-era American morals and ethics - no matter how much disgust tainted it.

No, it doesn't.........and I read a memoir of a German lad (too young for the army) in one of the American sectors of occupation. He spoke clearly about how kind and generous the US soldiers were, how well they treated him and his widowed mother....and compared them to the British occupiers (much worse), the Russians (oh boy!) and even German officials.....the Yanks came off so well he emigrated in the 50s, and choose a career in the US Air Force.

A 1% death rate per year is high, but some of the German POWs would have been wounded........

I think the entire debate is simply the result of unreasoning anti-Americanism.

But I don't really know. A little research is called for, maybe and perhaps.
 

Colpy

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WOW! READ THIS!

Research complete.

Willie Martin, whom DB quotes, is a racist white supremist, holocaust denier, Abraham Lincoln hater, a lunatic of the highest order.......

Certainly he has nothing to do with the "old fashioned type of truth" :)

http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/

DB, you LOSE on this one! Fer God's sake, check your sources!

Although I love it when the lefties start quoting Aryan Nation guys as gospel.
 

darkbeaver

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No, it doesn't.........and I read a memoir of a German lad (too young for the army) in one of the American sectors of occupation. He spoke clearly about how kind and generous the US soldiers were, how well they treated him and his widowed mother....and compared them to the British occupiers (much worse), the Russians (oh boy!) and even German officials.....the Yanks came off so well he emigrated in the 50s, and choose a career in the US Air Force.

A 1% death rate per year is high, but some of the German POWs would have been wounded........

I think the entire debate is simply the result of unreasoning anti-Americanism.

But I don't really know. A little research is called for, maybe and perhaps.

You easily characterize anti-Americanism as unreasoning you're a shrinking minority on this planet Colpy you love and kneel before the two most hated countries ever.
 

darkbeaver

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[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]Lewis Loflin And Utter Stupidity On Trial[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]There are many irritating things about Lewis Loflin’s extraordinary screed in which he failed miserably in his attempt to condemn Willie Martin, but the most irritating might be his association of Timothy McVey who thought he was an “Aryan” with Willie Martin who knew he was an Israelite and that Aryans are Iranians and Afghans. What could be more different than two White men who have such a vast difference of opinion about their own heritage than this? Lewis Loflin’s utterly absurd and insulting critique of Willie Martin needs to be quoted in full in order to comprehend the magnitude of the depravity of this man's "mind"--as well as to assure that he doesn't suddenly remove this page from the following web site and then pretend that he never wrote such a screed:[/FONT]http://christianparty.net/lewisloflin.htm

He's a nobody Colpy a poor deluded man who thinks the sun shines forth from John McCains annus and he's a christian funandgamesmentalist. Your rebuttle sources are as poor as you are.
 

Colpy

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[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]Lewis Loflin And Utter Stupidity On Trial[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]There are many irritating things about Lewis Loflin’s extraordinary screed in which he failed miserably in his attempt to condemn Willie Martin, but the most irritating might be his association of Timothy McVey who thought he was an “Aryan” with Willie Martin who knew he was an Israelite and that Aryans are Iranians and Afghans. What could be more different than two White men who have such a vast difference of opinion about their own heritage than this? Lewis Loflin’s utterly absurd and insulting critique of Willie Martin needs to be quoted in full in order to comprehend the magnitude of the depravity of this man's "mind"--as well as to assure that he doesn't suddenly remove this page from the following web site and then pretend that he never wrote such a screed:[/FONT]http://christianparty.net/lewisloflin.htm

He's a nobody Colpy a poor deluded man who thinks the sun shines forth from John McCains annus and he's a christian funandgamesmentalist. Your rebuttle sources are as poor as you are.

Uh-huh

his association of Timothy McVey who thought he was an “Aryan” with Willie Martin who knew he was an Israelite

DB..........get out of the white supremacy websites......it is NOT a nice neighbourhood.
 

thomaska

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May 24, 2006
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I'v lost count, but it's encourageing that you can pick out a simple error, for you that's huge progress.:smile:

Mite want two dropp the extra vowel from that werd up their...

in related news, while there were many accusations of maltreatment and cruelty, the number of Smurfs present in the village reamined constant. This raises doubts as to whether Azrael ever did manage to eat a Smurf. In fact in later years, Azrael claimed to only be following orders from his master Gargamel. "Gargamel is the one who wanted to eat them, I just like chasing things" remarked Azrael at a later hearing.

And thats just smurftastic, however, Gargamel is reknowned for claiming "I'll get them all if it's the last thing I ever do!"

The world will wait and see...