Free will versus determinism

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peacegirl

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Aug 23, 2010
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Do you seriously expect anything from this thread any longer Peacegirl? We're more than 500 posts into this thread and you haven't convinced anybody. Do you REALLY think you can still convince anyone here? I can't speak for everybody else, but I think it's pretty clear we've all made up our minds about what Lessans has to say.

I'm not expecting anything s_lone. I thought it would be over after mentalfloss left. I am only answering people's questions. I am not forcing people to come to this thread. Why is everyone blaming me for this?

Clearly, this theory is not making any headway in this thread, regardless of what you would like to believe. And that's fine. An idea can be correct without having universal appeal. That said, I think what would be more practical of you, if you wish to instill the values that this theory is based upon, is to contribute your ideas to other threads.

No, I think this is the last thread I will go to for a long time. I see the pattern and I'm not willing to do this again. It seems that those in philosophy --- the very people who I thought would be interested --- are the ones who are most unwilling to put aside what they have been taught in school, to even hear what this author is saying. Yes, they hear with their ears, but they aren't listening. Maybe this knowledge is too much of a threat, I really don't know.

mentalfloss said:
The theoretical explanations themselves may not need to hold any merit if they can be shown in practice. There are a multiplicity of issues that these forum members enjoy to discuss - if you are a part of that discussion, then that it is the most effective way that you can get this particular message across.

I would be intruding on other people's threads, and I refuse to do this. Plus, explaining a discovery of this magnitude as part of another topic would fail from the get go.

mentalfloss said:
If you truly care about the message, then you will forsake the metaphysical diatribe and actually make a practical contribution to the relevant topics on this forum. Promoting this guy's book or whatever, will not get the message across, and it is clear that the longer you try to force that upon the forum, the more resistance you receive, thereby diminishing any genuine intentions to convey these ideas yourself.

It's not a diatribe and you know it. I am not speaking bitterly against anyone. So why use this term Mentalfloss just to confuse everyone and make me look bad in everyone's eyes? That's not fair play. :-(
 
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mentalfloss

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Jun 28, 2010
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I'm sure that would help, but I wouldn't want to do this. Then I would be intruding on other people's threads, and I refuse to do this.

Hey, I'm just saying. You're the one that wants change. Change isn't coming from this thread, so why don't you go where there is a convergence of ideas on real issues? Why stick exclusively to the philosophical justification if you care about practical solutions to society's problems?

You definitely wouldn't be intruding on others by posting in their threads, but I guarantee you wouldn't really enlighten anyone by posting exclusively in this thread. It just doesn't make sense that if you were really compelled to communicate these ideas, you would only stick to one thread.
 
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peacegirl

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Aug 23, 2010
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Hey, I'm just saying. You're the one that wants change. Change isn't coming from this thread, so why don't you go where there is a convergence of ideas on real issues? If you're really compelled to, you can continue to post in this thread and in other threads. Mind blowing, I know.

Why are you being sarcastic? Again, you are trying to make me look bad in other people's eyes. That's not a very nice thing to be doing. There are great threads here. I was looking them over. There is so much to discuss, but it wouldn't help my cause, so I'm going to forgo this idea, although I am sure I would have some valuable insights.

mentalfloss said:
You definitely wouldn't be intruding on others by posting in their threads. But I guarantee you wouldn't really enlighten anyone by posting exclusively in this thread. It just doesn't make sense that if you were really compelled to communicate these ideas, you would only stick to one thread. Does that make sense?

You might be right, but I don't see any other way. This knowledge would get diluted and fail to produce anything that people would take seriously. You know this is true because if I can't do it in a thread expressly for this purpose, I won't be able to do it anywhere else. It seems that the resentment is growing because no one can get me to concede. This has nothing to do with the authenticity of this discovery; it has to do with people not wanting to be wrong.
 

mentalfloss

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Jun 28, 2010
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Well.. I don't really know what to say. If you don't try, then the probability that this discovery becomes diluted and forgotten gets closer and closer to 1. If you really care, you'll continue trying to bring that probability closer to 0.
 

peacegirl

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Aug 23, 2010
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Well.. I don't really know what to say. If you don't try, then the probability that this discovery becomes diluted and forgotten gets closer and closer to 1. If you really care, you'll continue trying to bring that probability closer to 0.

Not really. I have to go another route. Talking on these forums is not the way. As they say, to do the same thing over and over again and get the same result is the definition of insanity.
 

karrie

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Jan 6, 2007
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I would suggest you start at home. Really, seriously, talk to your other relatives, and ask if they see the 'truth' in what your dad had to say. See if they really believe that turning humanity into his vision is truly possible. See if they agree with the conclusions he reached. Because it's obvious that strangers don't get the thinking. It's obvious that we do not see an undeniable truth behind his proposition. We see an untested theory that makes no practical sense. Talk to your siblings, sons, daughters, neices, nephews, and ask for HONEST input.

From what I've seen, your dad was a utopian. And while that's not a bad thing to be (everyone should strive toward more perfection in humanity imo), I think he bought into his own brilliance on the subject a bit too strongly.
 

peacegirl

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Aug 23, 2010
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I would suggest you start at home. Really, seriously, talk to your other relatives, and ask if they see the 'truth' in what your dad had to say. See if they really believe that turning humanity into his vision is truly possible. See if they agree with the conclusions he reached. Because it's obvious that strangers don't get the thinking. It's obvious that we do not see an undeniable truth behind his proposition. We see an untested theory that makes no practical sense. Talk to your siblings, sons, daughters, neices, nephews, and ask for HONEST input.

From what I've seen, your dad was a utopian. And while that's not a bad thing to be (everyone should strive toward more perfection in humanity imo), I think he bought into his own brilliance on the subject a bit too strongly.

Why do you keep saying 'my dad'? Just because on these type of forums, people can't get beyond what they have been taught as true to even try to understand the extension of this knowledge, does not mean it is invalid. Karrie, I don't need to go to relatives and ask them for input. The majority of people can believe something that is not true, and a small minority can believe something that is true, so once again, this would not be a true test of anything. The only true test would be if something is falsifiable and if it works in reality. And this discovery meets those requirements.
 
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karrie

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Jan 6, 2007
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Why do you keep saying 'my dad'?


Because Seymour Lessans' daughter is Janis Rafael. There's enough information out there from your attemps to sell this book to be able to see that pretty clearly.

Just because on these type of forums, people can't get beyond what they have been taught as true to even try to understand the extension of this knowledge, does not mean it is invalid. Karrie, I don't need to go to relatives and ask them for input. The majority of people can believe something that is not true, and a small minority can believe something that is true, so once again, this would not be a true test of anything. The only true test would be if something is falsifiable and if it works in reality. And this discovery meets those requirements.


Bold added by me for emphasis of your statement regarding not being able to move beyond what we've been taught.... you've been taught this theory, so, such an argument doesn't work well. By your own argument, I could just as easily state that you can't move past what you've been taught by your father and seven years of reading his thoughts and compiling them into books.
 

peacegirl

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Aug 23, 2010
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Because Seymour Lessans' daughter is Janis Rafael. There's enough information out there from your attemps to sell this book to be able to see that pretty clearly.

Well guess what? You're wrong. I was a friend of his.

karrie said:
Bold added by me for emphasis of your statement regarding not being able to move beyond what we've been taught.... you've been taught this theory, so, such an argument doesn't work well. By your own argument, I could just as easily state that you can't move past what you've been taught by your father and seven years of reading his thoughts and compiling them into books.

You're right, and the only thing that really matters is truth. It always wins in the end. ;-)
 

Dexter Sinister

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... this author was an established mathematician.
No he wasn't, now you're just making stuff up. If he were I'd have been able to find references to him in that context. I did find an obituary for him though. Maryland state billiards champion for a while, and a salesman of construction and home renovation products. And if you're really just a friend of his and not his daughter, it seems very odd that you'd use the same user name she did on message boards going back to at least 2005, and write exactly the same way she does. I've seen three people on different message boards prove Lessans' claims are false, and your response is always the same. You deny it and tell them they don't understand, when they plainly do. Your credibility is now down to zero and the crank-o-meter is up to 10.
 

JLM

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No he wasn't, now you're just making stuff up. If he were I'd have been able to find references to him in that context. I did find an obituary for him though. Maryland state billiards champion for a while, and a salesman of construction and home renovation products. And if you're really just a friend of his and not his daughter, it seems very odd that you'd use the same user name she did on message boards going back to at least 2005, and write exactly the same way she does. I've seen three people on different message boards prove Lessans' claims are false, and your response is always the same. You deny it and tell them they don't understand, when they plainly do. Your credibility is now down to zero and the crank-o-meter is up to 10.

Loyalty is an admirable quality, Dex, and drives many people to making an ass of themselves. The smart person knows when they cross the line between being loyal and being ridiculous.
 

peacegirl

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Aug 23, 2010
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You won! I usually tell people, so it's not a big deal except when some use this fact against me, like you are trying to do.

Loyalty is an admirable quality, Dex, and drives many people to making an ass of themselves. The smart person knows when they cross the line between being loyal and being ridiculous.

I agree, this thread is getting ridiculous. It's becoming a waste of my time. Unless someone has something pertinent to say regarding the book, I'm bowing out.
 

karrie

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Jan 6, 2007
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Well, I guess if you had a good reason for bald face lying.

But, I guess the fact that you did that is my fault, right, because I'll blame you for telling a lie. If I'd just learn to let your behaviour slide off my back, you might stop lying, no matter what justifications you had.

Nah... that just doesn't fly.
 

mentalfloss

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Jun 28, 2010
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I agree, this thread is getting ridiculous. It's becoming a waste of my time. Unless someone has something pertinent to say regarding the book, I'm bowing out.

I don't, but K. Greene apparently did..


The book is presented in an awkward style where the author presents imaginary conversations he's having with people that he readily gets the best of. The other person then gushes enthusiastically about the authors reasoning. The prose and self glorification aren't the only problems with the text though.

Lessan likes to present even his philosophical ideas as scientific validated theories.


However not all of them are even testable hypothesis, and the ones that are testable he never bothered to try testing, or apparently reading any research in the field that was available even at the time the book was written.


His first discovery regarding free will he claims will lead to a world in which no one can hurt another person. The caveat is that these ideas can only been tested when he first has complete compliance from the entire worlds population. This last part even requires a period of military action first where dissenters are taken care of.


His second discovery, being the most testable, proves to be the weakest. Here the author claims that he can perceive an event, in real time, over great distances, without the light from the object having to have first had time to reach our eye. That perception was a process occurring without light reaching the eye and at greater than light speeds.


The most famous of his examples is seeing our newly ignited instantly sun eight minutes before the first rays of its' light can touch the earth.


The claims he lays out here are easily testable, don't match any observation ever made, and defy everything known about light, optics, and physics.


This would be Lessans worst mistake if we didn't get to his third discovery.


The third claim involves proving we are born again through an argument involving pronoun usage. The difference between people saying I or You and a person's inability to say I any more after their death convinced him that one of those other You out there must now be I.


These are without a doubt one of the most poorly reasoned proofs I've ever seen collected in one book. Save your money.
 

talloola

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Nov 14, 2006
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This is why talking on these forums is not the answer since I am not quoted correctly and I am being used as a dart board. I said that until the transition is complete, the police will need to be in full force in just proportion. Why are you people twisting what I say to make this knowledge look ridiculous? That's all you are doing.

When transition 'is' complete, and there are still those who will not conform, what will happen to them?
 

Dexter Sinister

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Oct 1, 2004
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I agree, this thread is getting ridiculous. It's becoming a waste of my time. Unless someone has something pertinent to say regarding the book, I'm bowing out.
It was a waste of your time from the beginning, as were the years you spent editing and collating all Lessans' writings, and the years you've spent flogging this stuff on various message boards. You've convinced nobody, and lots of people, here and elsewhere, have said pertinent things about the book but if they don't happen to agree with you they get this "poor me," "you're wrong," and "you don't understand" response. And you've been caught lying. You're a victim of what's called the sunk cost fallacy.

You've invested a lot of time and energy in promoting Lessans' ideas, and also invested a lot of yourself in them, this man is clearly some kind of guru to you, so quitting would be a tacit admission that you've been wasting your time all along and Lessans really has nothing to offer. Unfortunately, it's true that Lessans really has nothing to offer, and you HAVE been wasting your time and energy. And money; the book was published by a vanity press, not a real publisher expecting to make money from it, which must have cost you a bit. Bowing out is probably a good idea, as long as you don't start up the same foolishness somewhere else. Give it up and get on with something else, you have nothing to sell.
 
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Bcool

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Aug 5, 2010
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Interesting, that "sunk loss fallacy", wish I'd had that one to hand with some of my former bosses - may they RIP. lol

You know, just IMHO stuff... But even with the three coupe de gras delivered by you, mentalfloss and karrie, I don't think Janis will be able to stop. You can't can you Janis? Friend or father, it would be a betrayal of sorts of someone so significant even just in memory it would be unbearable to hurt so?

History tells us there comes a time when you stop because you've done all you can for someone else, how about some wise words from seven hundred years ago:

Paradiso "The Divine Comedy" Dante:
Fifth Sphere (Mars: The Warriors of the Faith)

"You shall leave everything you love most dearly:
this is the arrow that the bow of exile
shoots first. You are to know the bitter taste

of others' bread, how salt it is, and know

how hard a path it is for one who goes
descending and ascending others' stairs."
_________

 

peacegirl

Electoral Member
Aug 23, 2010
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No he wasn't, now you're just making stuff up. If he were I'd have been able to find references to him in that context. I did find an obituary for him though. Maryland state billiards champion for a while, and a salesman of construction and home renovation products. And if you're really just a friend of his and not his daughter, it seems very odd that you'd use the same user name she did on message boards going back to at least 2005, and write exactly the same way she does. I've seen three people on different message boards prove Lessans' claims are false, and your response is always the same. You deny it and tell them they don't understand, when they plainly do. Your credibility is now down to zero and the crank-o-meter is up to 10.

Dexter, I am not making this up. He was an incredible mathematician. His job was sales, but he was a math expert. He was a chess expert and a champion pool player. During his free time he did a tremendous amount of reading in philosophy and literature. In fact, he would read voraciously up to 8 hours a day. You say people have proved Lessans wrong. Where? Tell me, how did you determine that these people proved anything other than giving their opinion, just like you are doing. I think anybody that disagrees with Lessans is your way of justifying your disapproval of his work.

Well, I guess if you had a good reason for bald face lying.

But, I guess the fact that you did that is my fault, right, because I'll blame you for telling a lie. If I'd just learn to let your behaviour slide off my back, you might stop lying, no matter what justifications you had.

Nah... that just doesn't fly.

I lied because I wanted this book to have a chance, and if I gave my identity people would laugh and say "No wonder she believes in this book; it's her fathers'. Isn't that exactly what you are doing? I moved in the direction of greater satisfaction to lie rather than deal with people calling me 'loyal' or 'faithful', as if that's all it is. I did this as the lesser of two evils, and if you want to blame me, go ahead, but I believe you would have done the same thing if you had been in my shoes.

Of course she had a good reason... It gave her more satisfaction.

That's true s_lone. At least you are getting something from this thread. ;)

I don't, but K. Greene apparently did..


The book is presented in an awkward style where the author presents imaginary conversations he's having with people that he readily gets the best of. The other person then gushes enthusiastically about the authors reasoning. The prose and self glorification aren't the only problems with the text though.

Lessan likes to present even his philosophical ideas as scientific validated theories.

However not all of them are even testable hypothesis, and the ones that are testable he never bothered to try testing, or apparently reading any research in the field that was available even at the time the book was written.

His first discovery regarding free will he claims will lead to a world in which no one can hurt another person. The caveat is that these ideas can only been tested when he first has complete compliance from the entire worlds population. This last part even requires a period of military action first where dissenters are taken care of.

His second discovery, being the most testable, proves to be the weakest. Here the author claims that he can perceive an event, in real time, over great distances, without the light from the object having to have first had time to reach our eye. That perception was a process occurring without light reaching the eye and at greater than light speeds.

The most famous of his examples is seeing our newly ignited instantly sun eight minutes before the first rays of its' light can touch the earth.

The claims he lays out here are easily testable, don't match any observation ever made, and defy everything known about light, optics, and physics.

This would be Lessans worst mistake if we didn't get to his third discovery.

The third claim involves proving we are born again through an argument involving pronoun usage. The difference between people saying I or You and a person's inability to say I any more after their death convinced him that one of those other You out there must now be I.

These are without a doubt one of the most poorly reasoned proofs I've ever seen collected in one book. Save your money.

Maybe I answered to this one review in another forum, but this guy had a vendetta against me because he hated that my father said the eyes are not a sense organ. He went behind my back, because he was supposed to be helping me, and he went to Amazon and gave this faulty review. I don't know how he was able to do this because the book was not even being sold at that time, and Amazon only allows reviews when people purchase the book. Whatever!! Do you actually believe this guy who never read the book over me? I mean, come on. He writes,

His first discovery regarding free will he claims will lead to a world in which no one can hurt another person. The caveat is that these ideas can only been tested when he first has complete compliance from the entire worlds population. This last part even requires a period of military action first where dissenters are taken care of.

Compliance? That sounds like there is force involved, and there isn't any. He says a period of military action would be necessary where dissenters are taken care of? This is absolutely misrepresenting the book in the most vicious way because it will turn people off. There is no military anything, no force, no punishment, no being taken care of if there are dissenters. I can't wait for the book to be published so there will be more accurate reviews.

When transition 'is' complete, and there are still those who will not conform, what will happen to them?

Nothing talloola, I told you that already. This knowledge is gentle; it is about no punishment and no blame, so how can there be consequences for those who don't conform? It doesn't even make sense if you read even a little bit of this book. It's the opposite of what Kevin Green said.
 
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