Free Americans..please, someone take them..

thomaska

Council Member
May 24, 2006
1,509
37
48
Great Satan
Student leaders at a California college have touched off a furor by banning the Pledge of Allegiance at their meetings, saying they see no reason to publicly swear loyalty to God and the U.S. government. The move by Orange Coast College student trustees, the latest clash over patriotism and religion in American schools, has infuriated some of their classmates -- prompting one young woman to loudly recite the pledge in front of the board on Wednesday night in defiance of the rule.
"America is the one thing I'm passionate about and I can't let them take that away from me," 18-year-old political science major Christine Zoldos told Reuters.
"The fact that they have enough power to ban one of the most valued traditions in America is just horrible," Zoldos said, adding she would attend every board meeting to salute the flag.
The move was lead by three recently elected student trustees, who [ran] for office wearing revolutionary-style berets and said they do not believe in publicly swearing an oath to the American flag and government at their school. One student trustee voted against the measure, which does not apply to other student groups or campus meetings.
The ban follows a 2002 ruling by a federal appeals court in San Francisco that said forcing school children to recite the pledge was unconstitutional because of the phrase "under God." The U.S. Supreme Court struck down the ruling on procedural grounds but left the door open for another challenge.

Three of five Associated Students trustees took the action Monday, with board member Jason Ball calling the flag salute "irrelevant to the business of student government."
"While it's great to be an American, and I'm proud to be an American, yadda-yadda-yadda, and I appreciate all the rituals, I'm done" saluting the flag, Ball said Wednesday...
...While religious overtones were one element of the trustees' motivation, other concerns existed. "Nationalism is something that divides people," said Ball, wearing black boots, a beret and a hammer-and-sickle pin

Could someone please take these guys? We will let them go..real cheap too.
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
539
113
Regina, SK
Pledging allegiance to the government is socialist.
Not really. It's more typical of the right than the left to require such things, in my experience. I've sworn loyalty oaths to the Queen twice, when I began certain periods of being employed by the federal government, and I saw nothing wrong with that in principle after I'd read what I was actually swearing to. It was just a promise that I will honestly and completely fulfill the obligations I've accepted by taking the job. I think, however, that I'd be inclined to vote with the students on this one. I would not swear loyalty to God, because I think he's a myth, nor would I swear loyalty to the U.S. government, or the Canadian government, or any government. I might swear loyalty to the state as an institution, depending on how the oath was worded, but I won't promise to support a government.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
848
113
70
Saint John, N.B.
Student leaders at a California college have touched off a furor by banning the Pledge of Allegiance at their meetings, saying they see no reason to publicly swear loyalty to God and the U.S. government. The move by Orange Coast College student trustees, the latest clash over patriotism and religion in American schools, has infuriated some of their classmates -- prompting one young woman to loudly recite the pledge in front of the board on Wednesday night in defiance of the rule.
"America is the one thing I'm passionate about and I can't let them take that away from me," 18-year-old political science major Christine Zoldos told Reuters.
"The fact that they have enough power to ban one of the most valued traditions in America is just horrible," Zoldos said, adding she would attend every board meeting to salute the flag.
The move was lead by three recently elected student trustees, who [ran] for office wearing revolutionary-style berets and said they do not believe in publicly swearing an oath to the American flag and government at their school. One student trustee voted against the measure, which does not apply to other student groups or campus meetings.
The ban follows a 2002 ruling by a federal appeals court in San Francisco that said forcing school children to recite the pledge was unconstitutional because of the phrase "under God." The U.S. Supreme Court struck down the ruling on procedural grounds but left the door open for another challenge.

Three of five Associated Students trustees took the action Monday, with board member Jason Ball calling the flag salute "irrelevant to the business of student government."
"While it's great to be an American, and I'm proud to be an American, yadda-yadda-yadda, and I appreciate all the rituals, I'm done" saluting the flag, Ball said Wednesday...
...While religious overtones were one element of the trustees' motivation, other concerns existed. "Nationalism is something that divides people," said Ball, wearing black boots, a beret and a hammer-and-sickle pin

Could someone please take these guys? We will let them go..real cheap too.​

Thomaska, I'm afraid you are going to find very little sympathy for your stance from Canadians.

No offense intended, but Canadians generally find demonstrative patriotism (as practised by Americans) unsettling, improper, and basically a little weird. If someone here suggested a simple meeting be opened with O Canada, or an oath to the Queen, or any other show of loyalty, we'd all take him gently by the arm, lead him to the nearest Tim Horton's, buy him a double-double, and strongly suggest that he learn to relax.

That doesn't mean we don't care about the nation, just that we won't shout about it.

It is one of the most blatant cultural differences between Americans and Canadians.
 

thomaska

Council Member
May 24, 2006
1,509
37
48
Great Satan
Thomaska, I'm afraid you are going to find very little sympathy for your stance from Canadians.

No offense intended, but Canadians generally find demonstrative patriotism (as practised by Americans) unsettling, improper, and basically a little weird. If someone here suggested a simple meeting be opened with O Canada, or an oath to the Queen, or any other show of loyalty, we'd all take him gently by the arm, lead him to the nearest Tim Horton's, buy him a double-double, and strongly suggest that he learn to relax.

That doesn't mean we don't care about the nation, just that we won't shout about it.

It is one of the most blatant cultural differences between Americans and Canadians.

I can understand that. And because I'm not from Canada, I will take your word for it as being gospel in Canada. However, as you said, it isn't like that here. I suppose I'm more irked about this because it got press coverage. These kids did this for the "shock factor" They are 20 and 21 year old kids who wouldn't know real life if it came up and kicked them in the ass. So..whatever. It is California too, if these kids had done this further east of the California/Arizona border..they might have been taken by the arm, but I doubt they would have had any drinks bought for them. Oh, and i couldnt care less about the religious overtones...I just really get irritated at the "entitlement" mind-set the kids have..taking everything for granted
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
Could someone please take these guys? We will let them go..real cheap too.​


You yanks sure get your underwear twisted in knots over the strangest things!:)(joking) Seriously, I don't see why this is such a big deal. Must be the Canuck in me. We don't tend to go for overtly open displays of patriotism in this country. I'd even go so far as to suggest we would view such patriotic displays as ...well..strange in our eyes.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
63
California
Hi Thomaska

I heard that on the news and said to myself: "What's going to rile Thomaska today?" hahaha....

Kidding of course - and while I believe in freedom of speech - these kids are going to learn a great deal in this exercise of who's right and who's wrong. I'm pleased it happened because they will never forget the
messages they will receive pro and con.

Look on the good side Thomaska - at least the young are learning to speak out loud when they see something they want to change. Whether the majority agrees or not - they have had their day in "court".

Don't let it get you down T - Canadians pride themselves on being low key about things I guess.... I rather prefer passion and patriotism - but that's me.

Have a great name for these young socialist agnostics..... "Agnosocs"
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
33
48
The Evil Empire
Not really. It's more typical of the right than the left to require such things, in my experience. I've sworn loyalty oaths to the Queen twice, when I began certain periods of being employed by the federal government, and I saw nothing wrong with that in principle after I'd read what I was actually swearing to. It was just a promise that I will honestly and completely fulfill the obligations I've accepted by taking the job. I think, however, that I'd be inclined to vote with the students on this one. I would not swear loyalty to God, because I think he's a myth, nor would I swear loyalty to the U.S. government, or the Canadian government, or any government. I might swear loyalty to the state as an institution, depending on how the oath was worded, but I won't promise to support a government.

In this case catman is correct. The Pledge of Allegiance was born of an idea to try and heal wounds and unite Americans after the Civil War, by Francis Bellamy a baptist minister and socialist.

And there is another common misconception, The Pledge of Allegiance is not swearing loyalty to any God or Government, but rather to the United States (the people) as is represented by the flag.
 

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
3,500
48
48
California
I admit I don't get the whole pledge fervor, but obviously a lot of Americans are passionate about it. I don't see why they couldn't have just kept the pledge in if it was important to some of their members. Those who don't like it could have just sat it out. That seems more inclusive to me.
 

The Project Man

Liquer'd Up & Lash'n Out!
Aug 22, 2006
184
0
16
Pennsylvania
By outlawing it in their way, they are hypocritical to the rights they are trying to uphold. I would agree with Tracy, and by sitting out of the pledge, on the dais, they would have made a larger statement then just the "boots and pins."
 

Dalreg

Electoral Member
Sep 29, 2006
191
1
18
Saskatchewan eh!
I admit I don't get the whole pledge fervor, but obviously a lot of Americans are passionate about it. I don't see why they couldn't have just kept the pledge in if it was important to some of their members. Those who don't like it could have just sat it out. That seems more inclusive to me.

Yes a lot of you yanks are passionate about this stuff but obviously not all. Could not the ones who wanted to recite the pledge have gone and done it elsewhere? You have two different sides here and one side will be up in arms no matter what the outcome is.
 

thomaska

Council Member
May 24, 2006
1,509
37
48
Great Satan
Yes a lot of you yanks are passionate about this stuff but obviously not all. Could not the ones who wanted to recite the pledge have gone and done it elsewhere? You have two different sides here and one side will be up in arms no matter what the outcome is.

This is hard to explain. I couldn't care less if the little Mao wanna-be's say the pledge or not. It really doesn't hurt my feelings. What bugs me is there attitude about it. They stand there on the Dais wearing a hammer and sickle pin or whtever it was and talk about nationalism being devisive. They must have missed the whole Cold War thing...

What is even more ironic, is that if we lived under the Hammer and Sickle, and they refused to pledge allegiance to the party or something, at best they could expect a long wintery vacation somewhere..or worse they could just be taken to the GRU's basement and be re-educated with a small caliber bullet.
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
96
48
USA
I admit I don't get the whole pledge fervor, but obviously a lot of Americans are passionate about it. I don't see why they couldn't have just kept the pledge in if it was important to some of their members. Those who don't like it could have just sat it out. That seems more inclusive to me.

Thats just the way it is here in the good ol' US. Certain groups like this just do it to bring attention to themselves.

"Look at MEEEE!"
 

Hotshot

Electoral Member
May 31, 2006
330
0
16
I admit I don't get the whole pledge fervor, but obviously a lot of Americans are passionate about it. I don't see why they couldn't have just kept the pledge in if it was important to some of their members. Those who don't like it could have just sat it out. That seems more inclusive to me.

I think it shows insecurity in the yanks, blindly pledging whatever that rubbish is all about, every day. I would be willing to bet that 99% of the leamings who spout it off don't even pay attention to what they are actually spouting. It sounds like ya'all are brainwashed.

Why don't ya'all get a life??
 

fuzzylogix

Council Member
Apr 7, 2006
1,204
7
38
Thank goodness I am not American.

Just thinking about having to remember the words to the Pledge of Allegiance and getting them correct at a meeting where I might have been up until 4 am the night before and I might not have yet had my coffee and I am trying to use my neurons to remember what I was supposed to have done for the meeting is enough.

At least in singing oh Canada I can just mumble something about the glowing hearts and know that everyone else is going to hum with me through that bit that we all can never get right.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
149
63
Thomaska, I'm afraid you are going to find very little sympathy for your stance from Canadians.

No offense intended, but Canadians generally find demonstrative patriotism (as practised by Americans) unsettling, improper, and basically a little weird. If someone here suggested a simple meeting be opened with O Canada, or an oath to the Queen, or any other show of loyalty, we'd all take him gently by the arm, lead him to the nearest Tim Horton's, buy him a double-double, and strongly suggest that he learn to relax.

That doesn't mean we don't care about the nation, just that we won't shout about it.

It is one of the most blatant cultural differences between Americans and Canadians.

Brilliant post Colpy.