Fired for not wearing make-up

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
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I looked up on the internet about ‘Hooters’. While waitresses do not go topless (I was wrong there), they do wear revealing dresses, it is requirement for the job.

Just to point out a quick clarification: they do not 'wear revealing dresses', it is not a requirement for the job. As seen in the picture, that is not a dress.

Sloppy writing is one thing, but when it completely changes the meaning of what you say, you should be careful.
 

shadowshiv

Dark Overlord
May 29, 2007
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Just to point out a quick clarification: they do not 'wear revealing dresses', it is not a requirement for the job. As seen in the picture, that is not a dress.

Sloppy writing is one thing, but when it completely changes the meaning of what you say, you should be careful.

And it really isn't any worse than I have seen on the beach, jogging, shopping, etc.
 

YukonJack

Time Out
Dec 26, 2008
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The GAY expert opined:

"You have a gay friend, Yukon? Amazing."

No more amazing than the totally inconceivable assumption that you have ANY friends, at all.
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
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Surely you are quibbling here, TenPenny. Don't call it revealing dress, call it revealing clothes.

It would be quibbling if you were discussing lawmowers. But since you're discussing the manner in which the staff are attired, then there's a big difference, especially when you started out claiming they were topless.
 

VanIsle

Always thinking
Nov 12, 2008
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OK, I missed the plural (it was a typo). No big deal.
Okay - you and I have been over this point time and again. If you believe that employers should have plenty of latitude in their dress code, why do you believe the RCMP should be any different? You know what I am referring to.
I also wonder why you would believe that make-up represents beauty. Make-up can change a plain person into a beautiful appearing person or it can change them into something butt ugly. If a woman does not know how to put make-up on, it can spell disaster and I'm sure we've all seen many of those disasters.
The only mistake I see this girl making is in believing that she doesn't need anything on her face. She doesn't need it right now for her appearance. Skin does need a daily cream. Both my eldest sister and my husband's eldest sister believed they did not need make-up. Both sisters used nothing more than lipstick. As they aged, they really aged. The deep valley's in their skin were there before they reached the age of 65. My sister is gone now. My husband's sister has the appearance of of 90 yr. old. She is 76. I have talked with people well into their 80's who looked better than both women did in their late 60's. I don't agree that she needs to wear visible make-up for the public to see, but she should (and maybe does)need to keep her skin moist or she will begin to age rapidly.
 

TenPenny

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Jun 9, 2004
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Okay - you and I have been over this point time and again. If you believe that employers should have plenty of latitude in their dress code, why do you believe the RCMP should be any different? You know what I am referring to.
I also wonder why you would believe that make-up represents beauty. Make-up can change a plain person into a beautiful appearing person or it can change them into something butt ugly. If a woman does not know how to put make-up on, it can spell disaster and I'm sure we've all seen many of those disasters.
The only mistake I see this girl making is in believing that she doesn't need anything on her face. She doesn't need it right now for her appearance. Skin does need a daily cream. Both my eldest sister and my husband's eldest sister believed they did not need make-up. Both sisters used nothing more than lipstick. As they aged, they really aged. The deep valley's in their skin were there before they reached the age of 65. My sister is gone now. My husband's sister has the appearance of of 90 yr. old. She is 76. I have talked with people well into their 80's who looked better than both women did in their late 60's. I don't agree that she needs to wear visible make-up for the public to see, but she should (and maybe does)need to keep her skin moist or she will begin to age rapidly.

Nobody 'needs' makeup.
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
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Ontario
Okay - you and I have been over this point time and again. If you believe that employers should have plenty of latitude in their dress code, why do you believe the RCMP should be any different? You know what I am referring to.

The reason is simple, VanIsle. With RCMP, religious issues were involved (I assume you are referring to Sikhs wearing a turban). An employer has (and should have) a great deal of latitude, but he is not allowed to practice religious discrimination.

In this case, if the waitress had proved that wearing make up was against her religion, that she had never worn make up in her life, and that wearing make up would go against her religion, she may have been able to win her case.

I also wonder why you would believe that make-up represents beauty.

Now, where did I say that, VanIsle?

Make-up can change a plain person into a beautiful appearing person or it can change them into something butt ugly. If a woman does not know how to put make-up on, it can spell disaster and I'm sure we've all seen many of those disasters.

Sure it can, you are right. The point is not what I think, but what the employer thinks. If an employer thinks that wearing make up makes a woman more beautiful and so he wants his waitresses to wear make up, that is his prerogative.

If somebody doesn’t know how to put on make up, it is up to the employer to provide her with beauty classes to learn how to put up make up properly, as part of on the job training.

So the question here is not whether a woman should wear make up. The question is whether employer can mandate it as part of the job. In this case courts obviously think that he can. And seeing that employers are given a great deal of latitude, it doesn’t seem all that surprising.

Employers can set up all kinds of regulations. E.g. if an employer feels that wearing high heels can interfere with the job, he may forbid his employees from wearing high heels. It is best left to an employer as to how to run his business profitably and efficiently.
 

VanIsle

Always thinking
Nov 12, 2008
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Okay - you and I have been over this point time and again. If you believe that employers should have plenty of latitude in their dress code, why do you believe the RCMP should be any different? You know what I am referring to.

The reason is simple, VanIsle. With RCMP, religious issues were involved (I assume you are referring to Sikhs wearing a turban). An employer has (and should have) a great deal of latitude, but he is not allowed to practice religious discrimination.
They were supposedly at issue (religious issues). That same member that caused all the fuss was apparently rarely found in anything but the traditional head gear.
In this case, if the waitress had proved that wearing make up was against her religion, that she had never worn make up in her life, and that wearing make up would go against her religion, she may have been able to win her case.
Maybe she should have won it over saying wearing it made her feel bad and therefore caused her stress. Others would have gotten away with it. I can understand an employer telling someone they need to play down their makeup but firing them for not wearing any? We are told no black cotton pants as they may fade and no Lulu Lemon or whoever it is but everyone still wears all of it and no one gets fired over it.

I also wonder why you would believe that make-up represents beauty.
If a waitress wears make up, she looks pretty, (your words)
Now, where did I say that, VanIsle? Right above this unless you are going to dance around exact words.

Make-up can change a plain person into a beautiful appearing person or it can change them into something butt ugly. If a woman does not know how to put make-up on, it can spell disaster and I'm sure we've all seen many of those disasters.

Sure it can, you are right. The point is not what I think, but what the employer thinks. If an employer thinks that wearing make up makes a woman more beautiful and so he wants his waitresses to wear make up, that is his prerogative.

If somebody doesn’t know how to put on make up, it is up to the employer to provide her with beauty classes to learn how to put up make up properly, as part of on the job training.

So the question here is not whether a woman should wear make up. The question is whether employer can mandate it as part of the job. In this case courts obviously think that he can. And seeing that employers are given a great deal of latitude, it doesn’t seem all that surprising.

Employers can set up all kinds of regulations. E.g. if an employer feels that wearing high heels can interfere with the job, he may forbid his employees from wearing high heels. It is best left to an employer as to how to run his business profitably and efficiently.
But - you must be informed of all this upon being hired.
I wonder if it varies from province to province. When we purchased our business, we told the one staff member she could stay on. Then when we went to sign the papers, our lawyer said "lay off all staff and re-hire them if you want to keep them". He said that way, we were starting new and there were no issues. Seems to me that if it was not a condition of her being hired, she should never have been fired. (I assume that the new owner did not fire and re-hire everyone).
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
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If a waitress wears make up, she looks pretty, (your words) – VanIsle

Now, where did I say that, VanIsle? - SJP

Right above this unless you are going to dance around exact words. - VanIsle


No VanIsle, I did not say that, and I don’t have to dance around the exact words either. I said the following:

So employer saying that waitresses should wear make up is not really all that surprising. He could make an excellent business argument for that. If a waitress wears make up, she looks pretty, and that may attract more customers, more business.

Here I was giving an argument that an employer could possibly make, I did not say that I agreed with the argument. Since he did not discriminate (according to courts), he only has to make a plausible sounding argument to win his case. In this case, a plausible argument is an excellent argument, enough to win his case.

So I was merely presenting what an employer might say. As to do I equate make up with beauty? No, I don’t. In the third world, very few women wear make up (most of them can’t afford it), but many of them are indeed beautiful. So make up and beauty don’t necessarily go together, though make up can sometime enhance the beauty.
 

VanIsle

Always thinking
Nov 12, 2008
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If a waitress wears make up, she looks pretty, (your words) – VanIsle

Now, where did I say that, VanIsle? - SJP

Right above this unless you are going to dance around exact words. - VanIsle


No VanIsle, I did not say that, and I don’t have to dance around the exact words either. I said the following:

So employer saying that waitresses should wear make up is not really all that surprising. He could make an excellent business argument for that. If a waitress wears make up, she looks pretty, and that may attract more customers, more business.
Of course you said it. You even quoted yourself saying it. You may have been giving an argument but you did not say you were giving an arguement or an example. You clearly said IF A WAITRESS WEARS MAKE UP SHE LOOKS PRETTY.
Here I was giving an argument that an employer could possibly make, I did not say that I agreed with the argument. Since he did not discriminate (according to courts), he only has to make a plausible sounding argument to win his case. In this case, a plausible argument is an excellent argument, enough to win his case.

So I was merely presenting what an employer might say. As to do I equate make up with beauty? No, I don’t. In the third world, very few women wear make up (most of them can’t afford it), but many of them are indeed beautiful. So make up and beauty don’t necessarily go together, though make up can sometime enhance the beauty.
Answered above.
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
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So what happens to a waitress who develops an allergic reaction to all that poison on her skin? Can she be fired ? Or does she get to sue the employer for being poisoned in the line of duty?
The though of women plastering on makeup reminds me of Tammy Baker, which in turn makes my breakfast try to come up. I'll take clean skin any day.